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is hiting a sibling ever acceptible? - Page 3

post #41 of 123
The way I see the OP is:

Girl thinks: "He stopped doing what I didn't want him to do because I hit him and it was ok with mom."

Boy thinks: "I was trying to do something nice and got in trouble, she does something mean and it's ok. How is that fair?"

They were both did something wrong and they both need to have it discussed. Explain to DS that when someone doesn't want you to touch them, you accept that and move on. Explain to DD that if someone is there to stop it, there are better ways to deal with the issue then hit.

I have a friend who was punished for being kicked. Seriously. She did nothing wrong either except get a little too close to her sister when trying to say no. She got kicked. She then got sent to her room. The way it was explained was her sister was scared and her actions justified because of it. She was just learning at the time to express anger appropriately and managed it in that situation, then got in trouble for it. It ended up leading to a complete meltdown too, because mom wanted her to apologize for scaring her sister and she wanted an apology for getting kicked but was told it wasn't going to happen. Almost ten years later and she still doesn't understand how it could be anything other then her mother allowing her to get hurt.
post #42 of 123
I'm bothered by the idea that it's just a kiss from a sibling. My little brother loved touching me when he was little. I hate being touched - I still don't like it much. I'm not a huggy person. I was always told to deal with it, he loves me, he's just showing affection. I got belted once because after an entire car trip of me telling my brother to stop rubbing my leg and touching me, I slapped his hand (not hard and I got mostly my own leg so it made a lot of noise to hopefully make him back off) because I was the oldest and supposed to be nice.

Affection is no longer affection if it's hurting the person you're doing it to. I would be really worried about the continued pressure aspect and I sure as hell would NOT make them hug. Talk to both about boundaries and expectations (and explain that if he wants to pressure a girl into a kiss, he may get more than a slap from someone else) (and that hitting isn't a first resort, particularly if mum is around) but enforced hugging? Ick.

Yeah, it is probably just playing around and 'nah nah nah you can't kiss me' but there are lessons important enough to apply even to that.
post #43 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by cicatrix View Post
I'm bothered by the idea that it's just a kiss from a sibling. My little brother loved touching me when he was little. I hate being touched - I still don't like it much. I'm not a huggy person. I was always told to deal with it, he loves me, he's just showing affection. I got belted once because after an entire car trip of me telling my brother to stop rubbing my leg and touching me, I slapped his hand (not hard and I got mostly my own leg so it made a lot of noise to hopefully make him back off) because I was the oldest and supposed to be nice.

Affection is no longer affection if it's hurting the person you're doing it to. I would be really worried about the continued pressure aspect and I sure as hell would NOT make them hug. Talk to both about boundaries and expectations (and explain that if he wants to pressure a girl into a kiss, he may get more than a slap from someone else) (and that hitting isn't a first resort, particularly if mum is around) but enforced hugging? Ick.

Yeah, it is probably just playing around and 'nah nah nah you can't kiss me' but there are lessons important enough to apply even to that.
I don't think that people are saying "it's just a kiss" in the sense that the DD should have to allow it. They are saying "It's just a kiss" in that her brother is trying to show affection. No one has said that the brother was in the right. They just don't think the sister should be allowed to hit him when mom is there.
post #44 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by MusicianDad View Post

Boy thinks: "I was trying to do something nice and got in trouble, she does something mean and it's ok. How is that fair?"
Trying to force someone to kiss you isn't 'nice' and you should get in trouble for it. Sure she shouldn't have slapped him, but if this is out of the ordinary, she probably didn't feel like she had much of a choice (if yelling and saying no hadn't worked). Not to mention the probable size difference between a 4 and a 6 year old.

Like I said, play is a factor, but if she lashed out when she hasn't previously I would be examining just how scared she was feeling and make sure she keeps in mind going to an adult. But I would be very very bothered if my son did that AND thought what he was doing was 'nice'. Minimising the kiss in favour of being horrified by violence ignores the violence within forcing affection.
post #45 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by cicatrix View Post
Trying to force someone to kiss you isn't 'nice' and you should get in trouble for it. Sure she shouldn't have slapped him, but if this is out of the ordinary, she probably didn't feel like she had much of a choice (if yelling and saying no hadn't worked). Not to mention the probable size difference between a 4 and a 6 year old.

Like I said, play is a factor, but if she lashed out when she hasn't previously I would be examining just how scared she was feeling and make sure she keeps in mind going to an adult. But I would be very very bothered if my son did that AND thought what he was doing was 'nice'. Minimising the kiss in favour of being horrified by violence ignores the violence within forcing affection.
But as the boy sees it, he's trying to show affection to his sister. So the intention was good even if the method was not. Thats where the descrepency lies. He wants to do something nice, she reacts by doing something not nice and he gets in trouble while she gets a kudos.

That's why you need to discuss it with both of them. "When someone says they don't want a kiss, you accept that and move on. If they don't move on you come and get mommy instead of hitting."

Minimizing the violence to maximize the kiss is doing no favours. Any more the the opposite. What people (and myself) are saying is they are both behaviours you want to teach your children are wrong.

No one has said in this thread that the girl needs to be told to "accept the kiss even if you don't want to". Just say the dd was not in a position to be told it's ok to hit your brother.
post #46 of 123
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cicatrix View Post
Yeah, it is probably just playing around and 'nah nah nah you can't kiss me' but there are lessons important enough to apply even to that.
it most definatly was NOT this. DD1 was very annoyed at DS1 repeated attempts. she was not playing at all.

its been dealt with now, i have spoken to the 3 older ones. DS2 was not involve but i included him anyway.

they now know no means no, and to come to me if they are being bothered.

please let it go now.

Kiz
post #47 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by Onemagicmummy View Post
it came out between them both that she slapped him because he ws trying to get a kiss off her and she didnt want to give him one so he kept trying and kept on, and went to kiss her and she slapped him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MusicianDad View Post
The way I see the OP is:

Girl thinks: "He stopped doing what I didn't want him to do because I hit him and it was ok with mom."

Boy thinks: "I was trying to do something nice and got in trouble, she does something mean and it's ok. How is that fair?"

I think that most six year olds do not view repeatedly trying to kiss someone who has been clear that they don't want to be kissed 'doing something nice'. I think that most six year olds know that type of behavior is at the very least annoying as all get out.

In any case, a six year old and a four year old have started to learn that they have a right to say no to anyone, even if the stuff they are saying no to is couched in affectionate gestures, and I think that's great.
post #48 of 123
:

FWIW, we're starting to teach our daughter that if people try to kiss you or hug you and you don't want to, you get loud and you stay loud until mummy or someone else comes to help you. We're also using this as a teaching opportunity for the boys that if a woman says no then that means no. ALWAYS. Even if it's your sibling, even if she's drunk, even if... just always.
post #49 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by kama'aina mama View Post
I think that most six year olds do not view repeatedly trying to kiss someone who has been clear that they don't want to be kissed 'doing something nice'. I think that most six year olds know that type of behavior is at the very least annoying as all get out.

In any case, a six year old and a four year old have started to learn that they have a right to say no to anyone, even if the stuff they are saying no to is couched in affectionate gestures, and I think that's great.
There are perfectly intelligent adults who d can't understand why someone wouldn't want a hug or a kiss and who do it anyway because they understand it as something you do that's nice.

I mean how many people here have complained about family who wants insists on hugging their children when the child obviously doesn't want it? If some adults haven't even understood that not every person in the family wants to give/get hugs, then how can you expect a 6 yo to understand it without repeated explination?

Is there a reason why some people seem to think that I said the boy was in the right? I discintly remember stating that in his mind, he may well have thought he was doing something nice.
post #50 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by MusicianDad View Post
Is there a reason why some people seem to think that I said the boy was in the right? I discintly remember stating that in his mind, he may well have thought he was doing something nice.
And I disagreed that he thought he was doing something nice. In any case, if I was incorrect, his misperception has been corrected.


An adult who forces affectionate gestures on a child, or on other adults, has, at some point, chosen to ignore the gestures of rejection. Has willfully decided that their feeling that they are entitled to follow through with their act of affection supersedes the recipients desire not to be subjected to it. Those adults don't have a perception gap, they have a caring gap. And it seems that I and the OP and most of the other posters here are making an active choice to educate our kids not to develop that particular gap nor to tolerate it in others.
post #51 of 123
So invading personal space is wrong, but hitting someone when there are other options isn't...
post #52 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by MusicianDad View Post
So invading personal space is wrong, but hitting someone when there are other options isn't...
Didn't say it was OK to hit. Don't think anyone did. Also... don't see evidence that the child felt there were other options, and going by your criterion if the four year old felt physically trapped and didn't see an avenue of escape and had protested vocally to a reasonable degree... who are you or I to tell her that she should have explored her options further before resorting to striking her brother?

Bottom line for me is that most people teach their kids not to hit. That is a lesson that was already in the pipeline for her. Many people fail to teach their children, particularly their sons, to refrain from unwanted shows of physical "affection". And that ought to change.
post #53 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jenelle View Post
I guess these are the kinds of things that I just handle on a situation-by-situation basis. I would have looked at DS1 and said "you need to keep out of her space, if she's not in the mood for hugging and kissing then you leave her alone and go do something else." And I would have looked at DD1 and said, "he shouldn't have been all over you for hugs and kisses, but it's not ok to hit either, and you know that. if this happens again, you get away from him and come tell me." Then I would have told them to give each other a hug, say they're sorry, move on and be nice.
Except the hug at the end I overall agree with this. I wouldn't have required the hug especially considering it was the violation of space that started this but if given freely great. I'd have reflected feelings on both sides but also emphized the need to respect personal space in all forms both "kissing" and hottong.

Deanna
post #54 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by Onemagicmummy View Post
it most definatly was NOT this. DD1 was very annoyed at DS1 repeated attempts. she was not playing at all.
Personally, i didn't think it would be, but I wanted to cover the possibility. I would totally expect my child to hit someone in that situation (the same way I probably would...) - it doesn't mean I think it's the best, most logical and well-thought out solution, but when someone bigger, with more authority and smarter than you is using that against you to force you to do something you don't want, then I can see how hitting becomes an option when it isn't usually. It can be scary when someone you love is being creepy and icky and making you feel threatened - worse when they're bigger and older.

And i hate to say it, but I've seen actual abuse and assault excused by 'he was just trying to show you some affection' - I don't buy it. At least, not in most cases.
post #55 of 123
MusicianDad, in my post above I was going to write, specifically, that it sounds like both children already have a rudimentary grasp of the way that sexuality and power games play in together, her son was experimenting and roleplaying and her daughter was appropriately scared and annoyed. I have to say, here, that one of the things I am most interested in in raising both sons and daughters is that I do NOT want them to grow up to experience domestic abuse and I do NOT want them to grow up to experience sexual assault as either a perpetrator or survivor. I'm not going to teach my daughter to hit (in fact, she will be doing martial arts which teaches that hitting is a last resort), but if she feels threatened enough by someone getting in her personal space that this is how she chooses to handle it then I'm not going to condemn her for it. Listening to her instincts could potentially save her life.
I'm with cicatrix- I've heard "he was just trying to be nice" several times in some truly creepy situations. Notably, I also heard it about the little boy I grew up with who now has convictions for rape and sexual assault, and I can't help wondering if his parents had actually told him no a few times if he'd have grown up differently.
post #56 of 123
Again, I am so shocked when people bring up adults who are sexual predators to use as examples in this situation.

I'm not the OP but, I would be really upset if people were doing that to my child.

No where did I ever get the sense that the OP was concerned that her son was acting sexually inappropriate. And to make the leap to sexual predator is so beyond reason, it's shocking.
post #57 of 123
So you don't think that behavior patterns that are permitted in childhood have any relationship to how that child behaves when she or he are grown up?
post #58 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by Onemagicmummy View Post
2 nights ago i was surfing the interwebs when i hear DS1 scream, cry and i look up he is holding his face saying DD1 slapped him. i asked why she slapped him. it came out between them both that she slapped him because he ws trying to get a kiss off her and she didnt want to give him one so he kept trying and kept on, and went to kiss her and she slapped him.

DS1 is 6 DD1 is 4.

i told DS1 that DD1 was with in her rights to slap him
and told DS1 that is some one does not want to be hugged touched or kissed then we have to respect that and leave them alone.

i told them both that no body is allowed to touch kiss or hug anyone else with out permission and if anyone does that to them they can hit, scratch, and punch and run.

what would you have done?

what can i do better, different if there is a next time?

is there ever a time when its OK to hit a sibling, or anyone for that matter.

Kiz
I think you handled it fine, but I would make sure that children know the first thing they do in such a situation is run and get the grown-up in charge (a parent, teacher, or if at a playdate, the other kid's mom). Because the bottom line is "hitting and running" is not going to work all the time, and they need to know to scream out for help... and go get help too.
post #59 of 123
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post #60 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by kama'aina mama View Post
So you don't think that behavior patterns that are permitted in childhood have any relationship to how that child behaves when she or he are grown up?
I ask the same to you. A child who's told she has a right to hit her brother because he wants to give her a kiss, will think it's ok to hit her boyfriend when he's annoying her.
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