I need help from Quiverful Mamas please

[eastkygal]

I got my Mirena removed today! Thank God. It was nothing but trouble since I got it and I won't go into detail about why I ended up with it. Anyway, this has all led me down the path to pondering whether I'm being led to being quiverful. Neither me or my husband want more children, and it could be a health risk for me and the baby. However, I have felt wonder at the very least and maybe conviction since the Mirena. My husband so far has had no problem with any type of bc, and isn't at all inclined to be quiverful. We are now on a waiting list for one of us to get sterilization surgery. As we are debating whether this is the option for us, I need to know from quiverful mamas what scripture helped you in your decision to be quiverful? How did you decide not to use bc at all? If you use some bc, but not others, how did you decide that? I am praying and my husband will be too. I've told him my thoughts to this point. Some he is okay with, but quiverful he isn't. Please pray for us as we both know probably the biggest decision in our marriage awaits us.

My sister got pregnant 3 times using some form of bc. Sometimes I think if God wants us to be pregnant we will get pregnant no matter what. Now, I'm just confused.

[TzippityDoulah]

Originally Posted by eastkygal

My sister got pregnant 3 times using some form of bc. Sometimes I think if God wants us to be pregnant we will get pregnant no matter what. Now, I'm just confused.

this comment struck me b/c I hear this a lot, actually. the thing is... how do I say it? If you do believe God is calling you to be QF and you take the notion that God can create a child even if you use BC so why not use it? well... that's kinda shirking the responsibility of listening to God/obeying. It's setting up a a crisis in which God must act miraculously for His will to be done. Can He? of course? but should he have to act miraculously for His children to obey? no. granted perhaps your sister isn't QF (and never felt it put on her heart) but i would hate for anyone to let that be the reason they didn't explore QF if they felt God might be putting it on your hearts. ykwim?

that said, I would NEVER tell another person/couple that God wants them to be QF. It is such a spiritually significant decisions that is to be made, that it must be made after much seeking, praying and talking with your husband.

and for what it's worth, I didn't want more children either. My body is not healthy, so I hear you there! However once my husband and I realized that it was in fact God's calling on our lives, we submitted. we submitted our wants and asked Him to change them into His wants. Because when all is said and done, it's more important to obey than it is to be "healthy". I haven't arrived yet, but God is working on me.

I would pray and take time to really talk this over with your husband. take a few days or weeks if you need! no need to make a decision you're not sure about today. all of us QF people have gone through time of prayer and seeking to make sure it was what God wanted of us. It's a very important decision to make.

[cappuccinosmom]

For me it wasn't a list of scriptures. Although, QF gets it's name from Psalm 127 and there is also 128, so you might start there. Malachi 2 talkes about one of the purposes of marriage being to produce "godly seed" (children).

It was growing up hearing the Word and seeing the principles of God in action. According to the Bible, children are *blessings* and *gifts* (why would I refuse a gift from God?). God's commands always talk about multiplying. He *never* commands *anyone* to stop having children. Even in the midst of severe trials the Bible presents fruitfulness as a good thing--the children of Israel in Egypt certainly weren't having an easy time, but they were so fruitful they scared the pants of Pharoh.
There is also God's sovreignty--is He Lord of my life, or not? Is he the giver and creator of life, or am I? Is he the authority over who exists and doesn't, or am I?

Then there is the weight of the Church Fathers, Early Church doctrine, and basically the doctrine of the entire Christian church up until the 20th century--teaching that contraception is wrong.

The different kinds of birth control--for me there are varying levels of wrongness. I would never, ever, ever use or encourage the use of hormonal contraceptives or IUD's because they can remove a concieved embryo before it can implant. Since life begins at conception in my understanding, that would be ending a human life. Barrier methods and NFP are on a different level. Even sterilization, although obviously that's much more final. Those at least don't involve the end of life, just preventing the beginning of it altogether.

But this is a serious thing and not to be taken lightly. And there are many Godly people who have come to different conclusions about this. Pray and pray, and read and read. And perhaps put off sterilization for a while until your heart is able to be at rest about such a decision.

I might come back later when i have time tomorrow. We'll see.

[mysticmomma]

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[eastkygal]

Thank you so much so far. Now, I have a basis on which to ask DH questions and maybe we can get a decent dialogue going without it being an "I don't want to raise anymore children." "Well, I don't either, but..." So, thanks for the questions. Also, how do you feel about the scriptures being in the Old Testament? I know for some things like the "law" (or many parts of it) we don't have to obey anymore (ex. Circumcision). Jesus gave 2 commandments which encompasses the 10 from the OT. That is usually where my husband and I go when thinking of our behavior, and what should be done. Maybe you can help me there.

I experienced birth trauma twice in a way and I really don't want to be cut on again. I've been pushed over by 2 OBs one for surgery and one for the stupid Mirena. I need prayer to overcome this and want God's will in my life. I have so many plans for our little family that doesn't involve it growing at all. Financially we are in no place bringing another into the world. In patience, we are lacking. But, is it God's will? Are my plans for me God's plans for me?

[DahliaRW]

As far as the OT, I do believe it's still there as example, but not commanded. If that makes sense. For example, I use the OT to define what is modest for me to fulfill the command in the NT of dressing modestly. So I think you have to decide if the "examples" about children in the OT apply to your life. For example, if Children are blessings in the OT, and the NT often talks about God's blessings...etc. etc.

[Kidzaplenty]

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[cappuccinosmom]

Jeez Jenny, you're just watching? I saw your name and got all excited because you write such wonderful, encouraging posts on this subject!

[Kidzaplenty]

Originally Posted by cappuccinosmom

Jeez Jenny, you're just watching? I saw your name and got all excited because you write such wonderful, encouraging posts on this subject!

Sorry about teasing. I just did not have time to reply at the moment!

Going back to reread OP and then I will comment!

[Kidzaplenty]

UUUHHGGG!

I had a really great post, but the system ate it!

So I guess I will try and start over, although I am sure I can not get it all back in there!

QF is all about trusting in God for all things. There are so many verses in the Bible about trusting in Him and not leaning to our own understanding. (I had them all listed out in my last post that was eaten!)

We are to have faith in God for all things, simply to trust in Him.

Psalms 5:11 But let all who put their trust in You rejoice; let them always shout for joy, because You defend them. And let those who love Your name be joyful in You.

Psalms 40:4 Blessed is the man who makes Jehovah his trust and does not turn to the proud, nor to those who turn aside to a lie.

Psalms 40:8 I delight to do Your will, O My God; and Your Law is within My heart.

Psalms 56:3 When I am afraid I will trust in You.

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in Jehovah with all your heart, and lean not to your own understanding.

Proverbs 30:5 Every word of God is pure; He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him.
God desires our trust and our obedience.

Isaiah 55:8 For My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor your ways My ways, says Jehovah.
God sees the WHOLE picture whereas we only see a miniscule part of it. And God desires our best as well as the best for all. He sees beyond us and to His full plan.

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
We are called to live a set apart life, trusting in Him and living by faith. Not trusting in our own desires, and abilities.

Habakkuk 2:4 Behold, the soul of him is lifted up, and is not upright; but the just shall live by his faith.
God is the one that gives life. He is the one that opens and closes the womb.

Genesis 29:31 And when Jehovah saw that Leah was hated, even He opened her womb. But Rachel was barren.

Genesis 30:22 And God remembered Rachel, and God listened to her and opened her womb.

1 Samuel 1:5 ...But Jehovah had shut up her womb.
So, who are we to attempt to override what God has done?

Not to mention that all HBC, in addition to possibly preventing ovulation, will prevent implantation, thus ending a life God gave you. And there is no need to list all the scriptures regarding ending a life.

God knew that baby before he/she was formed:

Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed you in the belly I knew you; and before you came forth out of the womb I consecrated you, and I ordained you a prophet to the nations.
God has a specific plan for each and every baby concieved.

Most all reasons for the use of BC is based on sin; i.e. fear or selfishness. When you trace back the "reasons" for using BC, they almost always fall into those two basic catagories.

Fear of failure, fear of pain, fear of responsibility, fear of finances, fear of...

Selfishness, wanting things "your way", not wanting the responsibility of children, not wanting to be tied down, wanting your "own" life, etc...


If you feel that you have reasons that you need to limit or not have children, and you have prayed about it. I suggest that you pray, and pray again. Get together with God at the foot of the cross and lay it all out. If you feel that God wants you to limit or not have children any more, then just think about a couple more things.

First, permenant sterilization does have side effects that most don't talk about because of embarrassment or some such reason.

Vasectomy Side Effects
One of the tragic vasectomy side effects is a decrease in libido. It is definitely frustrating for a patient to discover that his inability to impregnate his partner would be practically of no use anymore since he will eventually lose his desire to have sex.

It may surprise many that atherosclerosis and cancer are among the vasectomy side effects that a patient could suffer if his body reacts negatively to the change in his reproductive system.

Then there is pain that can last as well as other autoimmune responses.What Happens to a Man’s Body After a Vasectomy?

Coalition for Post Tubal Ligation Women WebSite

These are just a couple of links but do your research. There is a LOT of information out there regarding side effects and reactions to sterilization.
Don't believe the lie that it is so rare that it does not really need to be considered. It is there. And it is not nearly as rare as the medical profession would lead you to believe.

I truely beleive that the safest and most healthy BC is barrier or NFP. I don't have any links for those, but there should be plenty of information if you look.

This really is a big decision to make, especially when you say you, personally, don't want more children. Don't make it lightly. And don't make it based on your own thoughts and reasonings. Talk to God and get His will. He knows what is best for you. He has the best desires for you. He will take care of you in all things.

[eastkygal]

Kidzaplenty- Thank you so much for taking the time to do that for me twice. I am trying so hard to hear that small still voice. Sometimes, I envy Moses getting it all laid out for him at the burning bush. I crave to hear that booming, authoritative, for sure this is how I want it voice of my God.

These verses will help me tremendously and my husband too. The reason I don't want anymore and him too is we feel frazzled. DH barely brings in $25,000 a year and we feel it is important for me to stay home with the children. It will be likely we will homeschool as well. We required government assistance for food and medical for our girls. Is it right of me to burden others for our welfare any more? Since childhood I have wanted to be a writer. I feel it is a gift God blessed me with, and no matter what I have done career wise in my life it keeps coming back to that. I want to be able to help DH bring in money. I want us to be able to provide for ourselves, and I want to stay home with my children.
My DH is an artist, teacher, and musician. He travels alot is can be out late sometimes. He has to be really focused and works long hours in order to support us. Sometimes I feel left behind. By myself with the girls all the time (when really it isn't that way). I wish I could embrace that part of things and be happy. I love my children and I wanted both of them. I'm not a very fertile gal and I had to pray diligently for 6 months for the first and for over a year for the second. I often go without AF for 6 months at a time. So, these babies are gifts that I was blessed with, and I enjoy raising them. I guess I'm needing something more emotionally from DH, or I'm just crazy and something is bad wrong with me.
I know DH is stressed about things financially and he feels his hands are full with work, being a husband, and trying to be a daddy to the girls. All things he takes very seriously.
Okay, sorry to go on and on, but that post really touched me and made me think. I appreciate it so very much. Any other thoughts, verses, etc. are very welcomed.

[eastkygal]

double post... sorry

[Kidzaplenty]

Remember, God will suply all our needs. But that does not necessarily mean wants. When you have a large family, usually you do have to give up some wants. But, they are really worth it in the end.

I know what it is like to feel financially strapped, even with our large family, and DH making only $30,000 (and this is only this last year that we broke the $30K mark). We have had to sacrifice thing, but in the end I realize that what we have done without, we have not really missed.

I also know what it is like for family to be against having children. I began recieving all the comments regarding irrisponsibility, stupidity, and financial suicide when we were pg with number 3.

And I can probably honestly say I have heard and been accused of it all. But when it comes down to the core, if I had to choose, I would much rather be in the will of God than in the will of my family.

I can also understand being on government assistance. I have all my children on government insurance (we could not afford the cost of it through my DH's work) and when I am pg, I also go on it. Yet, we rarely use it at all. (I UC, so I don't even usually use much when pg.) And when my daughter was alive, she was on it for all her therapy as well as recieved SSI for her care.

Cutting out unnecessary "things" does not harm children. They do not need all the name brand clothing, ipods, game boys, expensive lessons, expensive toys, and so forth. Don't try and keep up with the "Jones'", you just make life meaningful and do things in more unconventional ways.

Children are not short changed when they do not have all the luxaries that money can afford. And I really believe they become more appreciative of what they have and more responsible for what they get in the long run.

I am sure you will make the right choice, both you and your husband.

I, too, desire to hear God the way Moses did (he is one of my heros!).

But for now, I wait to hear His booming voice as I live day by day, struggling to just understand the simple things at times, and going on the only thing I know, God's Word.

[Smithie]

I'm not a QF mama, but I fully support QF families, including those who require government assistance.

Note my use of the word "families," however. If either spouse does not wish more children, I really don't think that the will of God is fulfilled by having the other spouse push them into it. If you feel like you need to take action here in order to be obedient to God, maybe the best path for you is to pray that your husband's heart will be changed, and meanwhile live your life and parent your existing children to the best of your ability.

Who knows? If God is calling you to contribute economically to the family through writing, that may be part of His plan to change your husband's mind about being QF. It sounds like $$$ are a big part of his resistance. As far as not wanting to raise more kids, that's an attitude that changes over time for many of us, QF or not!

[Kidzaplenty]

I totally agree with not pushing a spouse into something, no matter what it is. But especially when it involves others lives (such as children). Only bad, hurt feelings, feelings of resentment, discontent, and ultimately division will result.

That is why I recomend prayer, for both parties. And then a mutual decision. NFP can be used until such a time as you can both decide which direction you feel lead to take. If you feel called to QF and faith over BC yet your husband is still not there, then God will honor your decision to be obedient to your husband's desires. Because you both really do have to be on the same page with this. That is also a reason to go with NFP of some sort, it is not "forever" nor does it violate your beliefs.

I, too, am wanting to be a writer. (Writing Christian Fiction) One day I hope to publish several books I have as well as more I have in my mind. The wonderful thing about writing is that you can do that from home! I love my midnight writing times when the house is quiet and I can just write and think.

[eastkygal]

I'm going to be talking with 2 other women in our church, but DH came home yesterday and said he had decided to not have the surgery. I also have decided not to have the surgery and he is fine with that. We neither feel we should tamper with our bodies that way. DH is not to the point where he feels it is right to go without any birth control, but feels barrier methods and NFP are our choices as do I. We looked over the scriptures and DH isn't convinced they mean that living in faith means no birth control. His biggest question was this...

For quiverful mamas that have had c-sections. Because a medical intervention was available that would save your life or your baby's, you used it. Does that mean that you interfered with God's plan for you that you or your baby pass away at that juncture?

I have had 2 c-sections and he (right now) sees us preventing pregnancy as a way to make sure that I am healthy enough to be his wife and mother to our girls. Neither of us want to go through birth trauma again. DH sees that as his responsibility both as a parent and husband to protect us. So, in his eyes, right now, BC is necessary.
So, we are still responding to our thoughts prayerfully. I'm looking forward to talking with the women at our church. And in the meantime while I decide where I stand, we are at a point where I feel relief. Praise God!

Thanks and I hope our discussion can continue as I have the one question remaining, and I'm sure more to come.

[Kidzaplenty]

Originally Posted by eastkygal

For quiverful mamas that have had c-sections. Because a medical intervention was available that would save your life or your baby's, you used it. Does that mean that you interfered with God's plan for you that you or your baby pass away at that juncture?

The difference between having faith in God and not using BC and having faith in God and having a life saving surgery is this.

Using BC is a deliberate act of disobedience to God's word/will (given that you believe you should live by faith in all areas of your life, including your fertility). Using BC is choosing to prevent a life that God may be desiring to be born. It is like playing "god".

Having a life saving surgery is NOT an act of disobedience, it is doing what is necessary to prevent death of someone. It is doing what has to be done, and trusting that God's will will be done. It is choosing to save a life that has already been given life.

I can not answer what should be done if you have had to have c/s's and are unprepared to risk it again. It could be that you are basing your choice on fear, that would be a sin, as anything of a fear base is not of God. It could be that you are being prudent.

I have never had to have a c/s. And I think most that are done are unnecessary. But, I did have complications with my last birth and have a 1 in 3 chance of having the same problems with any future births. This is life threatening for both me and the baby. Yet, my DH and I have decided not to live in fear and to totally trust God. I am working to prepare myself and make myself as healthy as possible. I am working to ensure I have the "least possibility" of a reoccurance. And if/when we get pg again, I will monitor myself very carefully to watch for complications. But we will not live in the fear of what "might" happen.

God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power, love, and a sound mind.

So, that is my answer to your question.

[cappuccinosmom]

For quiverful mamas that have had c-sections. Because a medical intervention was available that would save your life or your baby's, you used it. Does that mean that you interfered with God's plan for you that you or your baby pass away at that juncture?

I can only say this theoritically, since I've neither lost a child nor had a c-section. But...

QF differentiates between disease and pregnancy/childbearing. The two are not the same, so it's not possible to say "Well, you use such and such a medicine, why not birth control?" Disease is a curse. There is Biblical precedent for using medicine as well as prayer. Conception and children are a much to be desired blessing, according to God. There is no Biblical principal or precedent for preventing conception.

Ultimately I can't mess with his perfect plans. He knows what I am going to choose before I choose it.

[Arduinna]

He knows what I am going to choose before I choose it.

Cappuccinosmom would it be ok if I started a new thread using your quote? I've been intrigued by the idea/concept/belief stated in it for awhile and I don't want to derail this thread.

[cappuccinosmom]

Go ahead. That would be a fun discussion.