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Should a child...? - Page 2

post #21 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by angie7 View Post
Yes a child should open the door for someone (especially if asked).

The adult should never call a child a name but the fact that she was being physically attacked could have triggered this response.

The child should never, under any circumstance hit another person. He needs to be held accountable for hitting her.

ITA.

Also, how could she drag him if her hands were full? Hmmm.
post #22 of 97
On the apology topic: I think if you speak to your son and explain to him what he did was wrong, maybe he would be willing to apologize and it doesn't have to be a "forced" apology???

We had an incident with my MIL and my eldest son when DS was about 7 years old! DS was in the wrong to a certain extent (although it was really minor) BUT MIL was way, way, way out of line!

Dh and I discussed the incident with our son and he could see that his actions were not right. He asked me why he should apologize if she would never do so.... I told him that we are only responsible for our own actions and we OWN them. She is responsible for her actions and even if she doesn't apologize it doesn't make it right.

He went and apologized to her! She was less than gracious in her acceptance thereof, but that is her problem!
post #23 of 97
OK....

1. I would be PO'd at anyone for talking to my child like that.

2. I would of course discuss how it's nice to open doors for people, especially if asked too. But chances are we've all ready had the conversation and he just forgot.

3. I would feel inclined to believe that no "please" was said, simply because there does seem to be an epidemic of children not deserving that. Unless I knew otherwise about the adult in question. I would of course take the time to explain that since he is expected to be polite with adults, adults are expected to be polite with him.

One final thought. Why up to the 5 yo to hold the door? I understand it's polite. But I was always taught the whole women and children thing. And a 5 yo is classified as a child...
post #24 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by MusicianDad View Post
One final thought. Why up to the 5 yo to hold the door? I understand it's polite. But I was always taught the whole women and children thing. And a 5 yo is classified as a child...
I agreed with the rest of your post, but I must be misunderstanding you here. The OP said that the grandma's hands were probably full, so she asked the boy to hold the door for her. Are you saying that was inappropriate in and of itself? (I don't think you would say that, but I'm confused by the above quote.)

And what "women and children" thing do you mean? It was a woman and a child wanting to get through the door -- surely they weren't supposed to stand there and wait for a man to come hold it open for them?
post #25 of 97
Thread Starter 
just a short response - I have only recently changed my stance on the "say please" thing. Before I was completley on board with "they will learn it naturally." But after being completley overwhelmed and discusted by my older 2 (ages 3 and 5.5) demanding me to get them things/do things for them, I decided to change my stance on it because It is just so freaking rude. I want to be respected at least a little bit and I want to not feel like a slave. (And my 12 mo old is going to be talking soon and if I have 3 kids acting like that I just might die.)
post #26 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by MusicianDad View Post
One final thought. Why up to the 5 yo to hold the door? I understand it's polite. But I was always taught the whole women and children thing. And a 5 yo is classified as a child...
The "women and children thing" is nonsensical, imo. I hold the door for anyone who is coming up quickly enough that they'd get smacked in the nose if I let go, and for anyone who has their hands full or it otherwise hampered in getting through the door (parent with stroller, someone walking with a cane, etc.). Gender and age are irrelevant.
post #27 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by mammal_mama View Post


First off, I'd stop drilling him on the "please and thank you" stuff. He'll learn to do it if that's what his significant adults are doing most of the time. It sounds like maybe he's had the experience of adults refusing to help him 'til they hear the "magic word?"

If that's true, I'd just apoplogize to your son and say you didn't realize that insisting on "please and thank you" might make him feel it was okay to refuse to help someone if they didn't say it "right." And that it's important for us all to help each other, and it hurt Grandma's feelings when he refused to help her.

About the hitting -- I don't want to imply that your mom would be dishonest and say she didn't touch your son if she did. But the way you're describing it, the hitting doesn't make any sense if she just asked your son to open the door, he refused, and then she went ahead and opened it herself (maybe after she had to set her stuff down) and came in.

Why would he just run in the door behind her and start hitting her? It just seems more believable to picture her asking, him telling her something like, "Not 'til you say the magic word!" (or else just quietly waiting for her to say it), and then her opening it herself and angrily dragging him through. And then him hitting her because he's rightfully enraged at getting manhandled.

I'm not excusing the hitting -- but as an adult if someone tries to drag me through a door, I have a lot more power to stand up for myself and make sure it never happens again. A child in that situation often feels powerless and their anger feels uncontrollable, because they honestly don't have adult resources for handling this sort of disrespect.

I don't know ... you know your mom and son and I don't know them at all. I'd believe my daughters over my mom any day, because my daughters are honest with me while my mom has often been dishonest with me.

So it's really your call who to believe. But just based on a brief analysis of your account of this incident, I'm thinking your son is being more truthful than your mom.
I like everything that was said here in Mammal-mama's post.
post #28 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm Bride View Post
The "women and children thing" is nonsensical, imo. I hold the door for anyone who is coming up quickly enough that they'd get smacked in the nose if I let go, and for anyone who has their hands full or it otherwise hampered in getting through the door (parent with stroller, someone walking with a cane, etc.). Gender and age are irrelevant.
post #29 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by transformed View Post
so wwyd?

I can only deal with my child. Not my mom. ()

PS - I just told him that he needs to open the door for someone when asked and he said "She didnt say please."

I have been drilling the kids about please and thank you for the last 3 weeks.



??????
And does he not receive any consequence for physically assaulting your mother??? Wow.
post #30 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenly View Post
And does he not receive any consequence for physically assaulting your mother??? Wow.
I'm seriously shocked! She didn't say please?!? Ok, so why did he HIT her? This behavior does not sound "adorable" to me, but rather, very mean. (especially the "she didn't say please" part).
post #31 of 97
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenly View Post
And does he not receive any consequence for physically assaulting your mother??? Wow.
I do the "talking to him" thing but frankly, it doesnt correct the behaviors and I have a serious shortage of "consequence" ideas.

thats why I asked "wwyd?" but I havent heard much in the way of actual tangeble ideas.
post #32 of 97
You say you can't force your mother to do anything, and of course you can't. But I hope you can talk to her a/b this, and tell her you've also spoken to your DS.

Then I'd talk to DS about manners, respecting his grandma, etc. And tell him you've spoken to Grandma about it too.

Then, assuming you trust your mom with your children (regardless of her lost temper in this situation, which IMO can happen to anyone) I'd send them out on an errand together to practice their manners and to make up to each other. They don't have to know that that's what you expect them to do, but if they have a generally good relationship, I bet that's what will happen.

I remember being sent out grocery shopping with my Grandma after I threw a fit at her house b/c she didn't have anything I wanted to eat. My mom figured one long, drawn out grocery trip w/a slow old lady would cure me...and it did.
post #33 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by transformed View Post
thats why I asked "wwyd?" but I havent heard much in the way of actual tangeble ideas.
I'd not let them be alone together (grandmother and boy), and I'd explain to both of them the reasons why: you believe that grandmother may have grabbed and dragged your ds (grandmother not trustworthy), you know that ds hit grandmom repeatedly and did not stop when told to stop (ds not "trustworthy", meaning he is needing your close supervision and guidance at this age). I don't take that suggestion lightly, but I simply would not leave my 5 yo dc alone with someone that I thought they might hit (likely to do so...have before, etc), especially if I have reason to believe that the person they hit will handle it very badly.
post #34 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by transformed View Post
I do the "talking to him" thing but frankly, it doesnt correct the behaviors and I have a serious shortage of "consequence" ideas.

thats why I asked "wwyd?" but I havent heard much in the way of actual tangeble ideas.
Tell him he needs to make ammends hitting hurts he used his hands to hurt so help him think of a way he can use his hands to make ammends. (he can use his hands to make an "applogy" card he can use his hands to help grandma do some dishes ect its not so much that it will make a lot of sense (dishes have little to do with hitting) but that he is involved in the ammend and it practicing using our body voices hands ect in a proper way. Allow him to think of somethng you'd be suprised what they can come up with.

Deanna
post #35 of 97
The whole incident sounds unpleasant, and I want to give you the validation you are seeking that your mom said something not nice to your kid. I'm sorry! You want to feel like you can expect a kid's grandparents to be nice, you know?

However, a 5 yo should stop hitting whenever asked by whomever asks, no matter what. Even if he feels justified, even if you feel he was "provoked." He certainly was, but he's too old for any provocation to lead to uncnontrollable physical aggression. That's far enough out of line that I would be focussing on that piece basically to the exclusion of the rest of it. I'm not even sure I would do much validation of his feelings(which I am usually a huge fan of), because I wouldn't want any more confusion about whether it is ever ok to hit. Hmmm, typing that out sounds cold, but I don't mean it to be- I mean what I would be talking about with my 5 yo is the hitting, how we can help him stop that, that we never ever do that, etc. Maybe one suggestion (and I think this would make the mad-at-your-mom part happy) would be to limit contact with your mom for a little while, if she's the only person he hits.
post #36 of 97
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by octobermom View Post
Tell him he needs to make ammends hitting hurts he used his hands to hurt so help him think of a way he can use his hands to make ammends. (he can use his hands to make an "applogy" card he can use his hands to help grandma do some dishes ect its not so much that it will make a lot of sense (dishes have little to do with hitting) but that he is involved in the ammend and it practicing using our body voices hands ect in a proper way. Allow him to think of somethng you'd be suprised what they can come up with.

Deanna
actually, funny you mention this becaiuse this kind of happened without me even instigating it tonight.

I am trying to start a tradition of "if you cook, you dont have to clean up and vv." at dinner so I invited ds to cook with us tongiht. My mom taught him to peel potaoes. He used his hands to make up for it and they had a good time doing it.
post #37 of 97
I just think if anyone was manhandling my child, even if it was me, and my child reacted to this aggressive physicality in an aggressively physical way, I would be fine with that. For those who say a 5 yo should NEVER hit- would you not want your child to defend himself if someone was abducting him? I know that this was not an abductor, but his grandmother. I know that, and still, where does it say, "Adults may be rough with children, and children must call on their Christ-like natures and not respond in kind. Children must never hit adults, even if said adults are attempting to physically overpower the children." Heck, if someone much stronger than me was trying to drag me through a door, I would probably hit, bite, kick, whatever. In the moment of this happening, even though this was a grandmother, I seriously doubt a child could know he was ultimately safe, and should therefore just suffer through it.
post #38 of 97
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mama_mojo View Post
I just think if anyone was manhandling my child, even if it was me, and my child reacted to this aggressive physicality in an aggressively physical way, I would be fine with that. For those who say a 5 yo should NEVER hit- would you not want your child to defend himself if someone was abducting him? I know that this was not an abductor, but his grandmother. I know that, and still, where does it say, "Adults may be rough with children, and children must call on their Christ-like natures and not respond in kind. Children must never hit adults, even if said adults are attempting to physically overpower the children." Heck, if someone much stronger than me was trying to drag me through a door, I would probably hit, bite, kick, whatever. In the moment of this happening, even though this was a grandmother, I seriously doubt a child could know he was ultimately safe, and should therefore just suffer through it.

I completley agree with this.
post #39 of 97
Transformed, do you think your mom dragged him through the door? Would she have been able to do this if her arms were full? Is she given to lying to get out of a sticky situation? I think whether you believe her or not has a huge bearing on how you would approach this!

I am bit on addressing the heart of a matter.... the heart here to me is that there was a lack of kindness on both their parts (she could have said please and he could have opened the door; the same thing with the dragging and the hitting). You cannot address her issues, BUT you can address the issue with him.

Regardless of whether you believe that a kid should hit/bite/scream etc when they are being abducted (and of course I believe this, too); I also think a 5 year old should NOT continue hitting an adult he KNOWS and presumably trusts when he is asked to stop. Yes, I can understand that he would lash out if she dragged him through the door; BUT I would not be okay if my kid continued hitting her after she has repeatedly asked him to to stop.
post #40 of 97
What strikes me is that there are so many mixed messages going on. It's not really that consistent to insist on politeness, which is a form of respect, when there is a lot of disrespectful language and ways of treating people going on.

Practical stuff - I think the hitting would be the number one concern for me. I would put it back on your 5 year old. "We don't hit, and that was unacceptable. How are you going to keep from hitting the next time? How will you make amends this time?"

I'd also remind him that if someone grabs him or anything like that, he needs to come to you.

Next, the door. I would talk about how it's frustrating not to have help. I'd really concentrate on modelling and expressing help when you have the chance. I'd try to give your son the sense that he can be really helpful by leaping on the least thing with appreciation (not praise exactly, but something like "I noticed you held the cupboard door open for me, and wow, was that a huge help. Thank you.")

I'd also let your mum know that right now she can't depend on your son to help her so she needs to plan accordingly. And reiterate that you don't allow name calling at your place, even if it won't do any good.
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