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post #41 of 97
I will defend/support my childs right to defend her self physically if needed I wont condone her countining physical harm once the other had backed down. Even if he was being man handled and had justifation to yell no or hit to be let loose it sounds like he countinued even after. That is not okay.
TOTALY EXTREME example (NOT comparing to your son) but I'm kinda thinking about the recent youtube video on the news where a boy is violently beating up another with the father standing around saying things like Bash his head in son He claims the other kids were bullies and he ws likely correct but turning his son into one was't the answer. Allowing his son to deffend him self was fine encoraging (or in some cases ingnoring) countinued bullying is not.

Deanna
post #42 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamazee View Post
He should have opened the door. And he shouldn't have hit.

But my goodness, who is the adult and who is the child here? Because they are both acting like children. At least one really IS a 5-year-old.

I'd talk to both of them. (The talk would mainly consist of "I don't want this to happen again.") And I wouldn't force any apologies.
This.
post #43 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by transformed View Post
my mom will not apologize. she is never wroing. But I will make my ds apologize even though I hate forced apologys. (They always sound fake IMO.)

Forced apology.....yeah I know.....but at the same time.......children don't always know what contrition is.....so we have to explain that when we hurt people's feelings then it's right to say..."I'm sorry." Even if we don't feel sorry at the time, we can still be sorry the other person is sad.

You're right about your mom though....mine is the same way.

If she doesn't have any manners, at least your son will know what they mean. Some adults when it comes to children don't think they can make any mistakes around them, and even if they do they don't apologize because it shows a lack of authority or self control. I know one couple who are like this with thier children and it really makes me mad.

Your son has an excuse, he's only five. What does your mother have to say for herself?:
post #44 of 97
I'm going to go waaaaay out on a limb and say I completely disagree with everyone here on the door opening.

Yes, it is polite to hold a door when someone asks you to. But it is not a punishable offense if it does not happen.

I absolutely do NOT expect my children to "say how high when I say jump."

When my DD chooses to do things like not hold a door open for me (I have a baby and we have a screen door on a spring so I ask for help with the door almost everyday) it's usually because she is in a cranky mood.

I choose to deal with the root cause of the crankiness rather than discipline the refusal to hold the door (not that I don't occasionally get pissed about it.) DD is on the whole a thoughtful, helpful child so I see no reason to push the issue.

Now, if I made a big deal about it and started yelling and getting physical in anyway, hitting is likely to be her response.

Is it right? No. Is it understandable? Yes.

I say deal with the hitting, which is unacceptable. Then deal with your Mom being immature and resorting to name calling with a 5 year old. When things have calmed down, and out of your mothers presence, talk to your child about holding doors as a kindness/polite thing that people do for each other.
post #45 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amylcd View Post
I'm seriously shocked! She didn't say please?!? Ok, so why did he HIT her? This behavior does not sound "adorable" to me, but rather, very mean. (especially the "she didn't say please" part).
:
post #46 of 97
Hitting is not okay under any circumstances IMO. Other than that, (all my opinion) if she asked him to open the door, he can say no. The "she didn't say please" sounds a lot like post-incident "lawyering," saying something you think will avert punishment rather than the truth (I see lots of 4 and 5 yo doing this; I'm sure it's a stage).

I would point out to him (and not to gma) that his actions (and hers) have consequences that just come with the territory (one might just be that gma doesn't want to hang around him for a while because it's too exhausting... and he might feel vice versa about her). I would explain that he has the right to say no to a question asked of him, but that it might well make gma mad if he says no when she needs help. It doesn't foster love between them, and it makes her life harder.

Te biggest issue I see is that he also does not have the right to hit. He has to find a different outlet for anger or fear when he feels like hitting.
post #47 of 97
I for one can totally see how Grandmother could drag a child through the door with her hands full. Scenario:

She has two hands holding a heavy bag, asks child to open door.
Child refuses.
Grandmother manages to open door holding bag and put bag inside.
Grandmother drags child inside.

Alternatively she might let go of the bag, straining the other arm, open the door with the free arm, then use said free arm to tug child inside because she believes he will not come on his own. She is angry but not being overly forceful, but child can see that she is angry so it feels forceful.

That, in my opinion, is not manhandling but if the child is not used to being dragged over the threshold, it would feel like aggression.

I would ask my kid to apologize and think for awhile about how his grandmother feels about being hit and ask grandmother to consider that because we do not tug children around in our home, he interpreted this as an act of aggression. I would explain that he has been asked to think about what he's done wrong and apologize, but it might come easier if he knew she was sorry about the argument.

As for opening the door: we always respect our elder's requests unless it gives us a funny feeling inside, a scared feeling, or we don't know that person.

As for please, maybe it would be best in your lessons to answer rude requests with, "I will get you an apple but I'd appreciate it if you asked politely first." This would model a minimally acceptable response that a child could give grandmother if he felt inclined to teach her a lesson. I bet she'd have laughed if he'd have come out with something like that.

(On further consideration, my hitting solution is more targeted at a child of my daughter's age, i.e. two... maybe more serious reflection and discussion is required if he's still hitting at his age.)
post #48 of 97
It is entirely possible that the child responded to being yelled at, by hitting. Grandma was wrong to yell, but the child was wrong to hit and should have had consequences for doing so, based on the fact that he continued to hit after being told to stop, repeatedly.

Some kids do not always tell the whole truth. Even small ones. Children are not always innocent of everything, nor should they be above reproach, simply because they are under the age of 18.

Now, if it is discovered that your mom actually did drag him, she should also be dealt with. I would go ballistic if someone were manhandling my kid.
post #49 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by transformed View Post
actually, funny you mention this becaiuse this kind of happened without me even instigating it tonight.

I am trying to start a tradition of "if you cook, you dont have to clean up and vv." at dinner so I invited ds to cook with us tongiht. My mom taught him to peel potaoes. He used his hands to make up for it and they had a good time doing it.

I don't understand how this amends the hitting, or makes up for it. It seems to skirt around the issue and ignore it.
I would consider amends to be something that attempts a fix - a card made by the child, an action that shows their compassion or contrition...not a fun time ignoring the issue.
post #50 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by transformed View Post
just a short response - I have only recently changed my stance on the "say please" thing. Before I was completley on board with "they will learn it naturally." But after being completley overwhelmed and discusted by my older 2 (ages 3 and 5.5) demanding me to get them things/do things for them, I decided to change my stance on it because It is just so freaking rude. I want to be respected at least a little bit and I want to not feel like a slave. (And my 12 mo old is going to be talking soon and if I have 3 kids acting like that I just might die.)
Do you think your overwhelmed feeling will be solved by them saying "please" when they make their demands, and "thank you" when you fulfill them? With 3 children 5 and under, it just seems like there's a lot of need and only one you.

I only have 2 -- an 8yo and a 3yo, and sometimes I feel overwhelmed. And they've actually absorbed the "please" and "thank you"-thing by osmosis. The overwhelmed feeling comes at those moments when I feel like I can't successfully meet everyone's needs including my own -- it has nothing to do with whether I'm hearing "please."

Since you have 3 so close together, I imagine that overwhelmed feeling comes a lot more frequently for you. Just hang in there, they really do grow and learn, and so do we.
post #51 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by transformed View Post
I do the "talking to him" thing but frankly, it doesnt correct the behaviors and I have a serious shortage of "consequence" ideas.

thats why I asked "wwyd?" but I havent heard much in the way of actual tangeble ideas.
I was trying to get more tangible information about what happened, and which person you thought was generally more truthful -- your son who said your mom dragged him through the door, or your mom who said she never touched your son. I still haven't heard back from you about that.

I realize some don't see how your mom could have dragged your son through the door if her hands were full. However, I'm guessing that if she managed to get the door open, she could also manage to grab a small child and drag him through the door.

Is your son in the habit of launching himself at people and beating them up without provocation? If not, then I'm guessing your mom did something to provoke the attack. Also, is your son in the habit of refusing to do simple things when people ask him? If not, then I'm guessing your mom did something that made him feel like refusing to help her.

None of this excuses hitting people or refusing to help them -- but sometimes we can solve these surface problems by getting at the underlying cause. That's my "tangible" suggestion, just for future reference. It sounds like you guys have already moved on from this particular incident.

I think that when people develop a chronic tendency to refuse to help others, or a chronic tendency to beat people up (I'm not talking about little kids, but people with a lifelong problem), this behavior usually stems from a feeling that no one will ever respect them or take them seriously. Their only way to feel powerful is to say "No" to even the simplest request, or to violently react to every perceived slight.

Again, I'm not talking about little kids, and I'm certainly not saying this is your son. I'm actually trying to reassure you that as long as you raise him in an atmosphere of respect, where he's used to being listened to, I don't think you have to worry that he'll grow up without developing basic empathy for others.
post #52 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by LilyGrace View Post
I don't understand how this amends the hitting, or makes up for it. It seems to skirt around the issue and ignore it.
I would consider amends to be something that attempts a fix - a card made by the child, an action that shows their compassion or contrition...not a fun time ignoring the issue.
I partly agree the amending can certainly be "fun" but it should still be in focus of changing a "bad to good" (for lack of better words) if he said (as wel as his age can) I will spend some time with grandma helping her in the kitchen and as a result of that amend they enjoyed time peeling potatos than super its an acton done to dirrection make right a wrong and there is no reason it can't turn out enjoyable.. Its also though means understanding I'll help grandma in the kitchen she may ask me to do something not so fun like taking out the trash. Thats not a punishment.
Its super great they had fun in the kitchen but I wouldn't say that was an ammend.
Deanna
post #53 of 97
Quote:
Yes, it is polite to hold a door when someone asks you to. But it is not a punishable offense if it does not happen.
I don't think anyone is suggesting not opening the door is a "punishable" offense. I would be one to address the decession and remind my DD about her manners but I wouldn't like give a conquence for not opening the door. However the hitting no. Again I do/will support my child defending her self but to countinue one the person has stopped would deffiently not be okay.

Deanna
post #54 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluegoat View Post
Your son should have opened the door for her. Helping when asked, especially with family life, is not always optional, IMO.
I completely agree. At five, he should know that the right thing to do was to comply with her request to open the door when her hands were full. This is not asking "how high"; it is being a polite and respectful family member.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nextcommercial View Post
I would NOT be happy with my dd if she refused to help Grandma.
This. Outright refusing when gramma needed assistance? Oh, it would not go over well here AT ALL. I'd be mad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by transformed View Post
I have a serious shortage of "consequence" ideas.
Some on MDC are not fans but I LOVE the Love and Logic classes. There are books too but the classes are better IMO. Logical consequences (like being cold if you don't choose to take your coat) are easy if we just keep our mouths shut and let it work (whole learning experience is ruined if we tell them how they'd be warm if they'd worn their coat; they know that and would rather shiver than admit you are right when it is being rubbed - however nicely - in their face). Consequences that we have to administer are harder - because it isn't always easy to figure out what it should be.

In the OP's scenario, it is a bit hard because it sounds like gramma may have made some less than stellar choices too - but I wouldn't take the word of a 5 year old who has just made two poor choices in a row and is at risk of getting in trouble - and of course he knows it. The truth may be somewhere in the middle.

What was to come right after they arrived home from shopping? If they were coming home with items to make cookies together for example, I'd put that off for another day. If dad was going to take him to the park after work, I'd let him know how disappointed I was in his choice to refuse to help (more minor) as well as repeatedly hit his gramma (more major) and that the park trip wouldn't be happening today as he needs some quiet time to think about what better choices he could do next time as well as maybe draw gramma a picture or some way of making amends.

I've also said something like "I am really upset about what happened today and need some time to cool down before I'm ready to take you sledding. I'm sure tomorrow will go better for all of us." Because it would upset me greatly to witness (in earshot or whatever) what transpired for the OP - on a number of levels. I think it is ok - good even - for kids to learn that what they do affects other people. Five isn't too young.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MOMYS View Post
Regardless of whether you believe that a kid should hit/bite/scream etc when they are being abducted (and of course I believe this, too); I also think a 5 year old should NOT continue hitting an adult he KNOWS and presumably trusts when he is asked to stop.
I understand that some people will say that if gramma is allowed to in any way physically help to get him inside, he is at higher risk for true bad things to happen. But that is an awful big stretch IMO. I hate to even see the word abduction in this thread - because of course 100% of us would agree kids or adults should try to get away and get help if they were being abducted. It was his GRAMMA getting him to go into HIS OWN HOUSE.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EdnaMarie View Post
Alternatively she might let go of the bag, straining the other arm, open the door with the free arm, then use said free arm to tug child inside because she believes he will not come on his own. She is angry but not being overly forceful, but child can see that she is angry so it feels forceful.

As for opening the door: we always respect our elder's requests unless it gives us a funny feeling inside, a scared feeling, or we don't know that person.
First, if gramma and grandson are having an argument about his refusal to help her, and she gets inside with the groceries or whatever it was, leaving grandson outside - well, some would be hanging her out to dry for leaving a "5 year old outside ALONE!" He is being defiant already, so she takes him by the arm and brings him in - which some will hang her out to dry for. The poor woman is damned either way.

And I LOVE the bolded part!!!!! Brilliant! Grandson was being... snarky for lack of a better word. Gramma didn't take well to it, and I wouldn't blame her. If she was overly rough with him, that IS a problem. But I wouldn't assume that from the information given. And a 5 year old repeatedly hitting her as they stand in the kitchen is totally unacceptable. 5 is not 2; 5 knows better. I'd understand thinking he was a brat (please don't get hung up on the word; that generation seems to go to that when our kids misbehave - at least my MIL does), but it would have been good if she'd kept that in her head instead of saying it out loud.
post #55 of 97
Yes, I think that if someone needs help and asks for it, another person should at least respond...including a child.
The hitting is not okay. I don't think it's okay for one person to hit another.
I think a conversation regarding being helpful and keeping hands to oneself when angry might be in order.
post #56 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by mama_mojo View Post
I just think if anyone was manhandling my child, even if it was me, and my child reacted to this aggressive physicality in an aggressively physical way, I would be fine with that. For those who say a 5 yo should NEVER hit- would you not want your child to defend himself if someone was abducting him? I know that this was not an abductor, but his grandmother. I know that, and still, where does it say, "Adults may be rough with children, and children must call on their Christ-like natures and not respond in kind. Children must never hit adults, even if said adults are attempting to physically overpower the children." Heck, if someone much stronger than me was trying to drag me through a door, I would probably hit, bite, kick, whatever. In the moment of this happening, even though this was a grandmother, I seriously doubt a child could know he was ultimately safe, and should therefore just suffer through it.
Yeah, that. I think if you dole out physical aggression you are going to get physical aggression in kind. Especially if you are an adult and dealing with a child. It doesn't make it right but I think neither of the parties are right in this instance. I think discussing the hitting is not good is fine but also validating the boy's feelings considering he was being manhandled is in order too.
post #57 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by limabean View Post
I agreed with the rest of your post, but I must be misunderstanding you here. The OP said that the grandma's hands were probably full, so she asked the boy to hold the door for her. Are you saying that was inappropriate in and of itself? (I don't think you would say that, but I'm confused by the above quote.)

And what "women and children" thing do you mean? It was a woman and a child wanting to get through the door -- surely they weren't supposed to stand there and wait for a man to come hold it open for them?
If her hands were full, then she wouldn't have been able to drag the 5 yo through the door.
post #58 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm Bride View Post
The "women and children thing" is nonsensical, imo. I hold the door for anyone who is coming up quickly enough that they'd get smacked in the nose if I let go, and for anyone who has their hands full or it otherwise hampered in getting through the door (parent with stroller, someone walking with a cane, etc.). Gender and age are irrelevant.
I understand that. I do that too. I'm just saying that I don't expect a 5 yo to hold the door for me. Mainly because doors for public buildings around here tend to be very heavy.

Just saying what I was taught.
post #59 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by abbieb View Post
i'm going to go waaaaay out on a limb and say i completely disagree with everyone here on the door opening.

yes, it is polite to hold a door when someone asks you to. But it is not a punishable offense if it does not happen.

i absolutely do not expect my children to "say how high when i say jump."

when my dd chooses to do things like not hold a door open for me (i have a baby and we have a screen door on a spring so i ask for help with the door almost everyday) it's usually because she is in a cranky mood.

I choose to deal with the root cause of the crankiness rather than discipline the refusal to hold the door (not that i don't occasionally get pissed about it.) dd is on the whole a thoughtful, helpful child so i see no reason to push the issue.

Now, if i made a big deal about it and started yelling and getting physical in anyway, hitting is likely to be her response.

is it right? No. Is it understandable? Yes.

i say deal with the hitting, which is unacceptable. Then deal with your mom being immature and resorting to name calling with a 5 year old. When things have calmed down, and out of your mothers presence, talk to your child about holding doors as a kindness/polite thing that people do for each other.
ita.
post #60 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by octobermom View Post
I partly agree the amending can certainly be "fun" but it should still be in focus of changing a "bad to good" (for lack of better words) if he said (as wel as his age can) I will spend some time with grandma helping her in the kitchen and as a result of that amend they enjoyed time peeling potatos than super its an acton done to dirrection make right a wrong and there is no reason it can't turn out enjoyable.. Its also though means understanding I'll help grandma in the kitchen she may ask me to do something not so fun like taking out the trash. Thats not a punishment.
Its super great they had fun in the kitchen but I wouldn't say that was an ammend.
Deanna
I agree, amending a wrong can be fun. It's not punishment. But the focus does need to be on the other person feeling better and/or the relationship healing. We have three parts of sorry here; acknowledging it, fixing it, and preventing it in the future. Each part is simple but they make up a whole...
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