Kids and religion

[Mrs. Bratton]

I need some advice. I was raised Pentecostal (more specifically our church was a United Pentecostal Church. There are different variations) We had to wear skirts, keep our hair long (my parents did let me trim it), wear minimal make-up (some people didnt wear any), minimal if any jewelry, and dress modestly. I am now Athiest as well as my husband. We dont want to sway Chloe in any way when it comes to religion but how do we do that? We live in the bible belt and my parents are still Pentecostal. They attend weekly services. I dont want to keep Chloe from going to church w/ my parents sometimes, I even go on holidays, but if she goes the Sunday School teachersare going to give her candy and tell her Jesus loves her and manipulate her into wanting to go all the time then I am going to look like an awful person for not letting her go. I just dont want her to automatially be a christian b/c everyone else here is. I am so sick of people who believe in their religion just b/c thats what they were told is true. I want her to think for herself and challenge every idea that is thrown at here. I want her to be intelligent, question everything and demand answers.

My question is how do I keep her from being christian by default w/out sheltering her? I dont want to do that but what is my other option? I cant expose her to every religion in the world but exposing her only to christianity would not be letting her decide for herself.

Also pentecostal churches really drill that whole "witnessing" thing. They push their members (even kids) to tell everyone they meet about God and invite them to church. Even if you are already christian that is not good enough for them. If you arent pentecostal you are going to hell. They will have her trying to guilt us into going to church and I will not have that. I am going to have to find a way to instill in her that she MUST respect other people's beliefs and not push her own on other people That is very arrogant and down-right WRONG IMO.

My Mom always talks about taking her to church when she is older and I really want her to have that privledge but at the same time I am very afraid of what all that manipulation is going to do to her fragile mind.

I am just confused in general about how to keep from swaying her in ANY direction. It seems difficult to do that w/out sheltering her from all religion until she is old enough to uderstand and that is impossible where we live. She will be heavily exposed to christianity. How do I keep her mind open?

[lotusdebi]

First, I'd say no to attending church until she's at least elementary school age - preferably late elem. school age, so she's at least old enough to have her own mind about things. If there's a Unitarian church in your area, you could consider checking that out. They accept people of all and no religions, and I believe they teach about different religions in a more factual way. Otherwise, check out some books about different religions as your child gets older. There are plenty out there for many age groups.

I'm raising my kids to be more or less agnostic. My DH is an atheist. I was an atheist for most of my life, but currently consider myself an agnostic pantheist of sorts. I talk to my 6 year old in terms of "Some people believe...", "What do you think?", and "Why?" I don't tell him what to believe, and I expect for him to think for himself and defend his position. He has a very scientific mind, and is currently more an atheist than anything else, though he also agrees with some of the spirituality in the cartoon "Avatar". The important thing to me is that he works things out for himself, and that he's free to explore different paths without fear of condemnation from us.

If you continue to live in a strongly Christian area, you'll need to prepare your daughter for what she'll encounter as she gets older. She may be bullied and ridiculed. If she's strong in herself, her beliefs or disbeliefs, and knowing you'll back her up, she'll be better off.

Hope that helps...

[2xy]

Another atheist here. Even as a child, I never was able to convince myself that religious dogma is real.

Anyway, I've always done the "some people believe..." thing as well, with my kids. We've also been through many library books on world religions and mythology. I think that when kids are exposed to varying belief systems and not indoctrinated into any particular way of thinking, reason and logic prevail.

I respect a person's right to believe whatever they want or need to believe. However, I personally feel that enveloping a child in a certain belief system before they've gained the ability to question or reason, amounts to brainwashing and is harmful. And like any other potentially harmful activity, I feel within my rights as a parent to say "no."

My kids have been to church with friends. I think it's important that kids are old enough to hold their own before attending.

[Theoretica]

Wow this is so hard, we're dealing with this too. I'd say find a local unitarian church and go there, where you can be an atheist and still be welcome and accepted. Our DD went with gma to church for a while, but it was SO quickly ingrained in her head that Jesus was the son of god and what not...OMG it was so frustrating. And this was a LIBERAL Lutheran church. I was raised Southern Baptist (Evangelical) in the bible belt, so I TOTALLY get where you are coming from. Even still, we really struggle with her having already been 'taught' that Jesus is god and whatnot. We do the 'some ppl believe' too, but once it's in there...there's some powerful messages that they grasp onto. We go to a unitarian church now, that's made a HUGE difference for our family. She has kids to hang out with, and they are exploring ways to be kind to others through deeds (not creeds!). It's awesome.

We've toured a lot of different religions too, that helped. So for a while she was 'believing in' lots of different gods. I don't mind her having her own theistic view that evolves with her growing maturity, but a fervent belief in something that Just.Isn't.True. is really hard, especially when that belief has been the cause of my own heartache for so many years. Of course this is the same child that fervently believed in fairies...so it's all taken with a grain of salt. I think just expose them to truth and truth-seeking, and it'll all be ok in the end. But yeah, don't send her to a Christian church until she can stand up for herself. I really had thought it was harmless, but DD came home bawling because 'the bad guys killed Jesus on a cross and it is REALLY true' and I just about came unglued. She was FIVE at the time. Really?? Is it necessary to describe HOMICIDE to a FIVE YEAR OLD?? Oh..yeah...that's right...as long as it saves her soul...

Ugh. Tough topic.
Theoretica

[philomom]

I'd not let her go to church... it can be a confusing and manipulative environment. Their whole purpose is to "sway" your child into being a believer and hopefully bring her stray sheep parents back into the fold with her.

Find other activities to share with these grandparents and find a different theme for Sunday mornings for your little family. Maybe pancakes and hikes.

[Mom2Ian]

I agree with pp who said not to let dc go to that church, especially b/c of the "witnessing" aspect, at least until dc is older and can put it into some context.

I'm in a similar situation...I'm a Pagan and DH is an atheist. We want DS to be exposed to all different types of spiritualities/religion/diversity/people and learn to respect those differences. We are raising him to be whatever he wants to be, be it Christian, Buddhist, Atheist etc. After much thought, I decided the best way (for US) to do this would be for me personally to join and attend a Unitarian Universalist church w/ him. People from all paths go there (even atheists, agnostics...also pagans, buddhists, christians etc) and their religious education classes educate about all kinds of spirituality/relgion/lack thereof without judgement. Plus, it has all of the socialization benefits of a church and DS can see how people of different backgrounds and beliefs can interact w/ each other in a positive way and be respectful. Just what I decided to do, FWIW.

Good luck!

[rmzbm]

I read this thread earlier and wanted to respond but I didn't, and still don't, have the mental energy to go there. So I will give a...

Originally Posted by philomom

I'd not let her go to church... it can be a confusing and manipulative environment.

...: to this. These days children loose so much of themselves growing up. Let them keep their minds and opinions, without interference. Please.

[beanma]

I think it's okay for the grands to take her to church, but you should go, too. I probably wouldn't let her go to Sunday School unless I could be there, too.

I see by your sig, you're still waiting on this little one to make her arrival? She may be like my kids and love her grandma dearly, but be adamant that she's not going anywhere w/o me! I can't imagine my kids going to my mom's church w/o me and they're 7 and 5. I mean, they are very attached to me, but that's like them saying they really wanna clean their room and the playroom and while they're at it they'd like to do the dishes and vacuum–nice thought, but not gonna come out of their mouths! We have all been to Grammy's church on special occasions, but just to the big church, no Sunday school. It's Presbyterian, so less intense maybe. I think the greater challenge for us is sitting quietly during the sermon.

hth

[angie7]

Another Atheist here as well. My dh was raised Catholic (his family is still strict Catholic) but he is more agnostic then anything now. I was raised to believe in god but not any certain religion and never had to attend church, even though I did a few times with friends. My dad is now Atheist. Anyways, I don't plan to push my views on my kids but at the same time, I don't plan to hide how I feel either. I will tell them that I believe god, etc. is a fairytale, nothing more then a story in a book but I'm also going to tell them that some people beleive that it exists. As far as going to church, no way, not until they are at least 13. They need to be old enough to understand that these are opinions not facts.

[Ks Mama]

Originally Posted by Mrs. Bratton

She will be heavily exposed to christianity. How do I keep her mind open?

Do you really want to keep her mind open, or is it what you really want to keep her mind closed (to the brand of Christianity in your family/neighborhood)?

Honestly, I think children are BORN with open minds... they aren't created. They are CLOSED by people around them - parents being their biggest influence. So I would be very aware of how you are presenting your feelings about religion. Children do tend to want to do what they think their parents most want them not to do.

We don't go to church, don't practice any religion, but personally, I do believe that there is a spirit in all of us - an energy - maybe god? I don't know. I believe that energy is passed in life through animals, people, plants... we're all effected by everything around us. That's the "religion" that I teach my children... that we should treat others as we'd like to be treated. That everything living is important.

And when questions about specific relgions come up, I say I'm not sure, because that's not what I believe in, but some people do, so let's look it up online. DD & DS learn about all different religions in school, and are surrounded by many different cultures & religions every day (we're in NJ).

As far as allowing children to go to church. Personally, I wouldn't be comfortable with sending my children without me. Just like I wouldn't be comfortable with them watching a PG movie without me. I'm there to help process. But that's just me.

[plunky]

If you're like me, the thing that turned you away from religion was partially about how they treated people that didn't follow the rules. I plan to instill values in my daughter that will make the variety of Catholicism that I was raised with a hard pill to swallow for her, namely feminism and an awareness of gay issues. I don't plan to forbid her from going to church with my dad though. I enjoyed going to church as a kid.

[MrsRefney]

I remember going to a Pentacostal church for several years while living with my grandmother. I hated going to the "big" service (not Sunday School, but the main service) because of all the yelling from the preacher, and people speaking in tongues. Quite scary for a 5 year old. I told my grandmother I didn't want to go anymore, and for some reason she was ready to change to. We started going to a Baptist church and things were much better. I still didn't believe, really, but I fit in well enough. I didn't embrace my atheism until I was well into my 20's.

Jeez, got a little OT there...anyway. We plan on introducing religions to our kids, but in a strictly educational sense.I sincerely doubt they will ever go to church. My stepmom is already thinking she's going to bring them to Vacation Bible School...uh uh. no way. Children are so impressionable. If you feel ok with letting your child go to church, wait until they are older. Able to really think for themselves.

Sorry for the ramble...not finished with coffee yet...

[NYCVeg]

Originally Posted by philomom

I'd not let her go to church... it can be a confusing and manipulative environment. Their whole purpose is to "sway" your child into being a believer and hopefully bring her stray sheep parents back into the fold with her.

Find other activities to share with these grandparents and find a different theme for Sunday mornings for your little family. Maybe pancakes and hikes.

I agree. When she's older, if she wants to go to church with grandparents, let her. And I don't really get why you'd even be considering Sunday School if you're an atheist.

[EnviroBecca]

If I were in your situation, I'd look for books and videos ABOUT various religions (not advocating or assuming them) and read those to her/watch them with her and discuss them. I'd allow her to attend church or Sunday school only if I was with her so I could see and hear everything and discuss it afterward.

Lotusdebi wrote:

If there's a Unitarian church in your area, you could consider checking that out. They accept people of all and no religions, and I believe they teach about different religions in a more factual way.

I was raised Unitarian and agree with this. Although it wasn't the religion I was seeking (I'm now an Episcopalian), it did teach me a lot about the beliefs and practices of various religions, which has been useful in all sorts of ways in my life.

Theoretica wrote:

DD came home bawling because 'the bad guys killed Jesus on a cross and it is REALLY true' and I just about came unglued. She was FIVE at the time. Really?? Is it necessary to describe HOMICIDE to a FIVE YEAR OLD??

I don't know about "necessary", but I think it is valuable to confront this idea at an early age: Jesus was a man who taught people to be good to one another and to question authority, and because of that he was brutally murdered by said authorities. My son's familiarity with this story made it possible for him to recognize a political assassination, when I told him the story of Martin Luther King, Jr., when he'd just turned 3. He understands that these things happen but shouldn't, and that we must do what we can to prevent good people from being killed and to keep their dreams alive. That's my take on it. I realize there are churches that talk about the Crucifixion by way of saying, "This happened because YOU are bad!!!" and I don't support that, but I think that the story of Jesus including his death can have great value even to young children.

[kangamitroo]

i think children do have an impulse to a spiritual life. if she is around family members for whom religion is important, i would think that showing her various ways to honor that impulse could be helpful.

you might think of it as part of your child's education, just as showing about other aspects of world cultures is important.

if you need resource ideas for teaching your child about religions, there is a link at the Unitarian Universalist Association website that has some world religion resources. www.uuabookstore.org/catalog.cfm?CatPos=1

Originally Posted by lotusdebi

If you continue to live in a strongly Christian area, you'll need to prepare your daughter for what she'll encounter as she gets older. She may be bullied and ridiculed. If she's strong in herself, her beliefs or disbeliefs, and knowing you'll back her up, she'll be better off.

in my family there are several born again christians (i am not), and i have tried to be sure to teach dd what i feel is important about the message of the life of Jesus. this way she can compare what she hears outside our home to what she and i have discussed together.

as you show your child what moves you--art, nature, whatever it might be--she will learn values and have those to stand on if there is outside pressure. nonetheless, your tone indicates such a high degree of discomfort with your family's church, i would keep it off limits for a while.

[Murihiku]

I'm an agnostic who was raised as a strict Catholic. I loved being Catholic and am still grateful for the knowledge (very helpful to me when studying literature), the intellectual stimulus, the moral training, the imaginative wealth, and the aesthetic experience. We can't raise our children Catholic because we no longer believe, but I feel rather sorry for them missing out on all that I had. I don't think religious upbringing equals closed mind necessarily--I'm a fence-sitter to the point of absurdity!

What I'm trying to say in part is that being exposed to a dogma can actually sharpen one's argumentative skills--there is something there to argue against.

[One_Girl]

I am on the fence about there being a higher power out there. Church scared me as a child though as an adult I did enjoy the Catholic Church. I have chosen not to take dd to church until she is a teenager and more able to handle the bible stories. I will also not make it compulsory. I feel that the stories in the bible are to violent to fit in with our values as a family.

[Jessy1019]

First, I'm not sure why you wouldn't want to sway her in some ways ... don't we want our children to share our values? I would feel remiss as a parent if I didn't attempt to raise my children to share my values -- I have the values I do because I think they're the right ones to have, and they are important to me.

As far as religion goes, I would absolutely NOT put my child in a Sunday School class for a particular religion. We are atheists, and I want my children to be informed about the different religious beliefs that are out there -- but they aren't going to get that kind of information from Sunday School at a particular church. IME, you might be able to find a more well-rounded class at a Unitarian church, but personally, religion is something I would teach my children myself, using books that present the different world religions in a factual manner (not as if their beliefs are FACT).

If you want to bring her to church to see where grandma and grandpa go, once in awhile, that's probably not a big deal -- as long as she knows that she's seeing a very small sample of the different things people believe when it comes to religion, and as long as you and her dad are also very clear with her about what YOU believe.

[elephantine]

Originally Posted by philomom

I'd not let her go to church... it can be a confusing and manipulative environment. Their whole purpose is to "sway" your child into being a believer and hopefully bring her stray sheep parents back into the fold with her.

Find other activities to share with these grandparents and find a different theme for Sunday mornings for your little family. Maybe pancakes and hikes.

:

[LynnS6]

I would introduce her to a RANGE of religions and religious stories from an early age. I would think of it as talking about different cultures -- just like we have different foods, we have different belief systems too. If you really want your daughter to be able to choose, then you have to let her know the options out there. If all she hears is grandma's pentecostal version of the truth, then she won't have anything to choose from. (I say this as a church-going Lutheran. So, I'm not advising against Christianity, but if you're not a believer, then give your child the BIG picture.)

There are a number of books for preschoolers (ages 3-7 or so, I think): I like A Faith Like Mine for younger kids (your baby is too young, but as a preschooler she coudl get this.) This book, Many Ways, also looks interesting. And The Story of Religion is also good for this age group. I also found a publishing group that seems to have individual books on the religions of the world: Religions of the World.

For older kids, there's a more in-depth DK publishing book called "Religions", and I found these too:
One world Many Relgions
A Kids Book of World Religions and a ton of others I'm too lazy to link to.