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I really hate PETA... Another low for this group. - Page 6

post #101 of 202
This answers an earlier question, taken from http:// www.goveg.com . Also answers to other veggie questions there too.

"What will we do with all those chickens, cows, and pigs if everyone becomes a vegetarian?"


It’s unrealistic to expect that everyone will stop eating animals overnight. As the demand for meat decreases, the number of animals bred will decrease. Farmers will stop breeding so many animals and will turn to other types of agriculture. When there are fewer of these animals, they will be able to live more natural lives.
post #102 of 202
Wow, you leave a thread overnight and suddenly it's got 3 more pages!

So, a couple of things I wanted to address. Someone said "If cows could talk, I'm sure they'd say they don't want to be eaten". Well, that's just it isn't it? They CAN'T talk! Animlas and people ARE NOT the same! I agree, a life is a life is a life, but animals are NOT sentient beings! What separates them from us is that they are NOT aware in the same sense as humans are and they cannot manipulate their environment in the way that we can. Does this mean we have the right to mistreat them? ABSOLUTELY NOT!

I work in a research lab and I have used white mice in my research. Do I like putting animals down? Hell no! Do I think it benefits research? An EMPHATIC YES! What do you think the test subjects for the safety and efficacy of probiotics, and echinacea, and raspberry leaf tea, and EVERYTHING ELSE comes from? WHITE MICE! Bred for a single purpose, kept in scrupulously clean environments with their peers. Coddled, and well fed and well taken care of until they are HUMANELY put down. No suffering involved. I still cry everytime I have to do it. But I think that is GOOD! It should never be easy! This is called RESPECT. I have respect for that life and I treat it with respect, bottom line. The USA sends soldiers into war! Some of them are killed in the name of protecting a country. We have RESPECT for these soldiers, but we still ask them for their sacrifice. This is how I view my lab mice.

I eat animals and animal products, but I only get them from establishments I have visited and inspected. I have seen how their animals are taken care of and I have witnessed their deaths. Not something I relish, but something I feel is important. If you wanna eat it, you should at least have the guts to kill it or watch it being killed. I feel confident that the practices are quick and humane. The same goes for dairy. The cows at this particular place are treated as cherished pets and are brushed daily and are well loved.

But back to "a life is a life is a life". WEll, I agree with previous posters. Vegetables ARE alive too! Just as algae and sea vegetables were once alive. The question is: where do you draw your line? I think it is hypocritical to say "Every life is precious" and fail to acknowledge plants as living things. A tree is alive!! It si a beautiful and magestic living thing!! What is the house you live in made out of? The paper your read and write on? Something died to provide you with that!

What about domestic pets? Why leave them out? No, we don't tend to eat them, but they are, in a way, enslaved. They had no choice about coming to live in your house. They don't get to choose where they sleep or pee. Why is this different? Why ignore these things?

Everyone has lines....the difference is where we draw them.

So yes, carrot juice consitutes murder is a joke, as well as "Give Peas a Chance" :LOL but it can still be funny as hell and TRUE! I have a friend who once said "Eating vegetables is the cruelest! They don't even have legs! They can't run away!!!" Meant as a joke...but give it some thought. There is some truth there. Lines people, LINES!
post #103 of 202
double post
post #104 of 202
Sure, life is life, but I disagree that animals aren't sentient. You honestly dont' think they feel pain and emotion? I'm the vegan that I know of in my workplace and I always tell people that I don't eat anything that runs away - that if something has enough of a brain to know that it doesn't want to be eaten that I have to respect that. I had one woman try to tell me that "fish are different - they come to you", to which I replied 'So, if I tell you I have a candy bar for you and you come over to my desk to get it, does that mean I get to kill you and eat you?"

Maybe I'm making too broad of a comparison here, but the way I see it, it's like people who say it's ok to let babies CIO because "they won't remember it when they're older". I tell them that you shouldn't do anything to a baby that they wouldn't do to your bedridden grandma. That usually opens their eyes at least a little bit.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I don't believe that just because I'm a walking talking person I have the authority to use and abuse people or animals who are "less" than me because they don't possess those same abilities. That's pretty arrogant in my book.
post #105 of 202
Quote:
So, a couple of things I wanted to address. Someone said "If cows could talk, I'm sure they'd say they don't want to be eaten". Well, that's just it isn't it? They CAN'T talk! Animlas and people ARE NOT the same! I agree, a life is a life is a life, but animals are NOT sentient beings! What separates them from us is that they are NOT aware in the same sense as humans are and they cannot manipulate their environment in the way that we can.
There are unfortunately alot of humans who can't think, can't talk, aren't aware of whats going on around them, and they can't manipulate their environment. Since they don't meet your "criteria" what shall we do with them? Funny, as I sit here typing this and looking out my window at my busy bird feeders, I see plenty of ways in just my backyard that animals have "manipulated thier environment". Birds nest in the trees, holes from Mr. Mole, and a few skunks have made their home in a brush pile. Ok, so they can't type or use the telephone, but does that make their life any less important?

This is actually all a waste of breath. After all, anyone who can watch their dinner being killed and not have any problem with it really can't undertand no matter how many different ways you try to explain it.
post #106 of 202
Quote:
Vegetables ARE alive too! Just as algae and sea vegetables were once alive.
Many non-veg folks bring this stuff up. So I answer that some of us DO advocate for the ethical/proper/healthy treatment of all living things, including veggies and plants! Hence the organic farming movement, the anti-GMO movement, etc...The "broccoli is alive too" is almost as annoying as "where do you get your protein??"

I choose to be a Veg'n, but as a member of PETA, I advocate humane treatment of living things ( including plants) - I don't expect everyone to be an ethical vegetarian, but I can be active in promoting positive change towards our gluttonous consumption of animals and animal products.

For me at least, it all comes down to karma. If something was horribly mistreated in this world, and then I consume it, I can expect no good to come of it ( physically or spiritually).

So bravo to PETA for taking a stand for animals.

Quote:
"If cows could talk, I'm sure they'd say they don't want to be eaten". Well, that's just it isn't it? They CAN'T talk!
dear goddess! babies can't talk either! As mothers we become super IN TUNE to other forms of communication besides VERBAL. I guess you are trying to make a point, but that one is lost on me...

...
post #107 of 202
I drove by this ad the other day, and it struck me as a little bizarre, and perplexing. The ironic thing, and I am sure no co-incidence is it is by a huge feed mill for commercial animal food, which definitely often involves animals not being treated well.

I used to belong to PETA but I do feel they carry things a little too far sometimes, and decided I could do more in other ways. I am glad there are people out there making a stand though and everyone has to what they can do for what they believe in, as long as it does not hurt others, in my opinion.

Destinye
post #108 of 202
Amandasmom
I may not agree with or share your beliefs but I respect your right to have them. Please afford me the same courtesy and keep this an intelligent discussion. I do not know you and do not cast aspersions upon your character. Nor do I make assumptions about you. Again, please afford me the same courtesy. Just because you believe something does no make it right, just as my beliefs aren't necsessarily right, but the are right for me, just as yours are right for you. Get it?

"This is actually all a waste of breath. After all, anyone who can watch their dinner being killed and not have any problem with it really can't undertand no matter how many different ways you try to explain it."

I found this offensive.

If you read my post carefully, you'll find that I did not say that animals DO NOT manipulate their environment. I said they don't have the same capabilities to do so as humans. I didn't say that animals don't have feelings, I said that they aren't sentient beings. There is a difference.

Anyhow, ladies, lets not make this personal, ok? One can have an intelligent discussion without emotions getting in the way.

Great thread!
post #109 of 202
If animals are not sentient beings does that not make it even more important that we treat them ethically and with dignity?

And here is the if:

Source: The Collins English Dictionary © 2000 HarperCollins Publishers:

sentient

adjective
1 having the power of sense perception, or sensation; conscious


noun
2 (rare)

a sentient person or thing
[ETYMOLOGY: 17th Century: from Latin sentiens feeling, from sentire to perceive]
post #110 of 202
Destinye,

I agree with you that animals should be treated ethically and with dignity. We differ in our opinions of what 'ethically and with dignity" are.

Animals do not percieve their enviroment in the same way as humans do. This is what I mean by them not being sentient.

Animals raised for the purpose of being eaten should be treated ethically and with dignity. That said, they exist for a purpose and would not have been brought into exsistance otherwise.

On another note, most of the money put into animal conservation is done so that the populations can be perserved so people can shoot 'em. Left to their own devices, animal populations naturally peak and crash. It's cruel, but it's nature's way. In the wild, they starve to death, are eaten by other animals. If it were me I'd prefer a humane, quick and painless death rather than be eaten alive by a predator or left to starve during a harsh, cold winter. Hey, animals eat other animals of the same species as well as other species. They do it for survival, and given the chance, I'm sure a hungry wolf would look at me as a tasty meal. The difference with animals is that they have no guile. They don't pretend to be ethical or to treat other animals with dignity, because they don't!!! They're mean and cruel and they TAKE what they need w/ out thought. But you have to respect that don't you? They don't say one thing and do another. They are honest.

Getting back to PETA, I agree with their stance on most things(I.E. Fur, aligator and crocodlie products etc, etc.), just not the way they go about getting their point accross in some instances. I agree with Devrock in that I don't think these bilboards are doing them any favors. If it's offending and alienating *some* of the people who support you in the first place, I think it's time to choose a different tactic.
post #111 of 202
Keysmama,

You've taken that one quote a little out of context. I don't mean to suggest that just because a being can't talk means that it can't feel pain, or that it's less of a life.

Well, that's just it isn't it? They CAN'T talk! Animlas and people ARE NOT the same! I agree, a life is a life is a life, but animals are NOT sentient beings! What separates them from us is that they are NOT aware in the same sense as humans are and they cannot manipulate their environment in the way that we can. Does this mean we have the right to mistreat them? ABSOLUTELY NOT!

So, the point here is, animals and humans are not the same. Given the chance, a wild animal, be it herbivore, carnivore or omnivore would attack or eat you if you stood in it's way or it was hungry without thought for your dignity or ethics. Again, no malice or disrespect intended .
post #112 of 202
Pumpkinhead,

You said:
If it were me I'd prefer a humane, quick and painless death rather than be eaten alive by a predator or left to starve during a harsh, cold winter.

But the animals slaughtered for food are not given a quick and painless death. First they are caged for years, debeaked, declawed, driven insane with their captivity. Forced to eat things that are not natural for them like their own feces and the ground up remains of other animals. Then they are taken to slaughter. Some are scalded alive. Some hang by broken limbs while their necks are slit. Some are beaten to death.

An animal in the wild lives a natural existence. If it becomes the victim of a predator, so be it. Until that moment, it was free to live how it wanted, as nature intended. Free to raise its young and care for its offspring. Free to roam where it wants to. And when a predator does hunt it down, the predator kills it quickly. To me, that is more humane than what humans do.

Animals who kill other animals for food do so to survive. They take only what they need. They do not kill for pleasure. Humans kill animals for food for their own pleasure.
post #113 of 202
Dear Pumpkinhead

I do agree with you about PETA, in fact I used to be a member but some of their methods alienated me, so I joined other groups and did what I could personally.

I do think animals killed for food commercially are not treated ethically or with dignity in general though, and they do perceive more than we realize. I had to spend time in a slaughterhouse as a veterinary student and the animals arriving definitely sensed the distress and fear of the animals in there and being slaughtered. The reality is far from humane and thats what I personally object to. It was so distressing I could not finish my time there and have not eaten animals raised that way since. I have known farmers though who genuinely loved their animals and treated them with kindness and compassion.

I know nature is not always humane but I am not sure what gives us the right to decide what to do in such an extreme manner as it is these days. I do believe we were given dominion over animals but it us up to us to choose how we treat them wisely,. They are sentient beings though, aware of pain, terror, other animals distress, and even grieve for one another, to list but a few, Animals in nature and captivity can also be genuinely altruistic too. The more time I have spent with animals the more sentient I think they are though. Yes I agree maybe not sentient in not the same way as humans, but in their own way, and they deserve to be treated with dignity, and there are many ways that the situations of animals in many places could be radically improved. I wish I knew how to achieve that. Sadly we have interfered so much in nature, and the environment, and eliminated so many species already, it would be a wonderful thing if we could do something to reverse and change that.

Destinye
post #114 of 202
Quote:
Animals who kill other animals for food do so to survive. They take only what they need. They do not kill for pleasure. Humans kill animals for food for their own pleasure.
There are many omniverous animals that do not *need* to kill other animals to survive. I fail to see how the murders they commit to eat for their own pleasure (and survival) is somehow "better" than people who eat mean for their own pleasure (and survival).

Quote:
But the animals slaughtered for food are not given a quick and painless death. First they are caged for years, debeaked, declawed, driven insane with their captivity. Forced to eat things that are not natural for them like their own feces and the ground up remains of other animals. Then they are taken to slaughter. Some are scalded alive. Some hang by broken limbs while their necks are slit. Some are beaten to death.
And that is WRONG. (not your assertion, the behavior). I'm just saying that PETA alienates a vast number of people who would support the dignity of animals, and yet still use their products and eat them. I would totally support an organization that supported "humane" treatment of animals (and all that entails--- keeping, feeding, not genetically modifying, etc...) but I can't support one that puts my child's life on the same plane as an ant.

Further, even if everyone in the world became vegan, I would still support animal research.
post #115 of 202
Quote:
Originally posted by Erin Pavlina
But the animals slaughtered for food are not given a quick and painless death. First they are caged for years, debeaked, declawed, driven insane with their captivity. Forced to eat things that are not natural for them like their own feces and the ground up remains of other animals. Then they are taken to slaughter. Some are scalded alive. Some hang by broken limbs while their necks are slit. Some are beaten to death.
This is true of most animals killed for food, but not all. It is not true of organic, free range meat. Also, I'm not sure what the rules are for Kosher, it might be more humane as well.
post #116 of 202
98% of animals are killed inhumanely. Only 2% of the meat in this country are the free-range animals you're talking about.

Though I DO applaud people who eat free-range animals as opposed to the ones kept caged.

Animals killed in the Kosher manner suffer more, I believe, as they are not allowed to be stunned or knocked senseless before they are killed. Not 100% sure on this, so I am not going to say this is fact, but I seem to recall reading this somewhere.
post #117 of 202
Quote:
No, they didn't get me thinking about animals. They got me thinking about a bunch of little kids who are going to be uspet by the suggestion that Santa Claus will not be visiting their house this year
Actually if your kids watch TV or read magazines/comic books or attend school - they are bound to see or receive mixed messages about Santa. IMO this is an excellent time to teach them about advertising.

I have great regard for PETA - they may seem extreme to some of you but all ideas at one time or another have seemed that way. The idea that it offends your sense of decency is great. What would life be if we were not offended once in a while.
post #118 of 202

PETA rocks!

Peta does a great job of calling attention to the exploitation and abuse of animals in our culture. Sometimes, campaigns need to be "not nice" and "in your face" to get their point across. Most people don't want to acknowledge how horrible animals are treated so that we may enjoy chomping on their putrid, charred flesh. All movements need a "radical fringe" group to bring the issues into focus. For every person Peta "alienates," another person reads their literature, learns the truth about animal abuse, and becomes vegetarian. Go Peta! They will always get my contributions!!!
post #119 of 202
I'm sorry but I :LOL at that ad. I see everyone's point about kids seeing it, but as an adult I found it funny.
post #120 of 202
Quote:
Originally posted by 3boys4us
they may seem extreme to some of you but all ideas at one time or another have seemed that way. The idea that it offends your sense of decency is great.
Quote:
Originally posted by Raven67
Sometimes, campaigns need to be "not nice" and "in your face" to get their point across. Most people don't want to acknowledge how horrible animals are treated so that we may enjoy chomping on their putrid, charred flesh. All movements need a "radical fringe" group to bring the issues into focus. For every person Peta "alienates," another person reads their literature, learns the truth about animal abuse, and becomes vegetarian.
Once again, it isn't just their extremism about animal issues. It's advertising campaigns that are offensive in ways that have nothing to do with animals. They aren't just offending people who disagree with their animal extremism -- their ads are offending all kinds of different groups of people -- for reasons that don't even have anything to do with their animal extremism.

As I said before, it's possible to be "not nice" and "in your face" about factory farming without declaring female body parts ugly, without announcing to children that Santa isn't coming, withoug offending hollocaust survivors, and so on and so on. In my opinion the PETA ad failed to get its point across or bring the issue into focus. Some animal rights activists have come into this thread and made sure that the animal rights issue actually does get talked about (which is a good thing!) but the PETA ad itself actually obscured the issue. Most people, in my opinion, do not walk away from that ad thinking about the issue. I think most people are more likely to walk away from the ad thinking about little kids being upset about Santa, or some other aspect of the ad. I still think they are alienating more people than they are educating.

I would welcome an ad that actually taught people about the horrible way that animals are treated.
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