Need help, dh threatening to have it done to babe...

[mi.birthdoula]

I posted this as a reply in my ddc, but I would like to get some advice...

Unfortunetly dh and I have been going around and around on this issue. I will NOT under any circumstances let someone mutilate this babe if it is a boy. Dh on the other hand is insistant that if it is a boy that he WILL be circed, even if he has to take him out of the room and ask for it to be done while I am sleeping. I'm at my wits end with the whole issue, I'm not one to ever give in on something that I truly believe in. I've even asked dh to read, investigate, info on it, and he still wants it done. I've also had him watch a video of it being done, and his reply was, "yeah, well I had it done and I'm fine, and I don't remember it so I don't understand what the big deal is."

The thing that completely blows my mind is that (this is going to get into some sexual topics) dh knows that I have a hard time being completely satisfied with him all the time and he is constantly complaining about it. When we were discussing the circe issue, I brought up (in a very gentle and caring way) that I had been with an intact man before, and it is very different for not only the man but also the woman. I don't want to take away my sons' and future partners full pleasure just so my dh is happy.

This is my predicament: I will be having a section in the hospital, and I know from prior experiences that I am extremely groggy and tired for 24 hours post opt. I am planning on having the babe room in, but I am so afraid that he will take the babe and have it done without my knowledge while I am sleeping.

My questions are:
(we live in Michigan)

1. can the hospital perform the procedure with only the fathers consent? Or do they need both parents to consent?

2. upon admission, can I tell the hospital that under no circumstances is anyone other than myself allowed to give consent for procedures done to babe? And are they legally obliged to follow this request?

I know I'm not due until Aug, but I really want to get this off my mind as it has been eating a hole in me. Any info or suggestions are greatly appreciated!

[Fellow Traveler]

Originally Posted by mi.birthdoula

I posted this as a reply in my ddc, but I would like to get some advice...

My questions are:
(we live in Michigan)

1. can the hospital perform the procedure with only the fathers consent? Or do they need both parents to consent?

Usually they won't do it if there is an argument so be firm in your insistence that they not circumcise your son.

Originally Posted by mi.birthdoula

2. upon admission, can I tell the hospital that under no circumstances is anyone other than myself allowed to give consent for procedures done to babe? And are they legally obliged to follow this request?

Yes. But I would do it before your delivery.

Originally Posted by mi.birthdoula

I know I'm not due until Aug, but I really want to get this off my mind as it has been eating a hole in me. Any info or suggestions are greatly appreciated!

I would check into the policies of the Hospital you're planning on delivering in. Notify your OB and Pediatrician often, make sure they understand your objection. Make sure your objection is clearly noted on all hospital admission forms and if possible notify the management in the L&D part of the hospital.

Your bigger problem might be after you're discharged. If your husband is insistent enough he could potentially take the child to another doctor. I am not sure how best to handle that but I think that if you get him out of the hospital, that is unlikely to happen.

Keep strong you're doing a great thing for your son, what a lucky boy. You still have time to convince your husband, perhaps it will just take some time. And we're here to support you.

[kiara7]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that baby is considered part of mom in the hospital, no? But then again, you'll have your hands full when you're out of the hospital. It's better to sort these things out beforehand.

I would tell your dh to find ONE medical organization (AAP, etc.) that recommends it. Then you'll talk to him about it. Until he finds it, it's not being done. And he won't find it.

[Belle]

Originally Posted by mi.birthdoula

"yeah, well I had it done and I'm fine, and I don't remember it so I don't understand what the big deal is."

Tell him that you are the one with intact genitalia, so you will be making the decision about whether your son retains his bodily integrity.

[Arduinna]

Yes, I'd make it clear to the hospital, my Dr, the nurses in L&D ect, have it put in your chart all of that. I'd be more worried what will happen after you leave the hospital. Since you aren't due till August you have plenty of time for him to figure out that you mean it and that no matter what temper tantrum and threats he brings you aren't changing your mind.

[glongley]

I know of one family here in Colorado, where the boy came home intact, and a few weeks later the dad took the baby and got him circumcised while the mother was taking a nap. So it can happen.

I think your husband needs some compassion as he grapples with this. Sorry to hear him complain about you having difficulty having an orgasm, but he certainly is likely to feel his masculinity is threatened if you compare how he is able to satisfy you, to how a previous intact partner was able to. This may make him all the more insistent on having your son circumcised, just to rationalize to himself that nothing is wrong with him.

I think with time he will come around, and you have plenty of time. He probably never even thought about it before, and now he is having to work through all kinds of subconscious emotional reactions to the idea. It definitely takes time. Be compassionate with him but stay firm on it. Most doctors have the sense not to do something like this if they know the parents are in disagreement, but cover all your bases as far as notifying all parties (OBs, pediatricians, hospital risk management representatives, etc.) in writing, repeatedlly if necessary, that you do not give permission and that you will take legal action if they do it with your husband's OK alone.

Gillian

[Contrariety]

His insistence to circ would be the end of my marriage, period. I would claim in the hospital that I wasn't really so sure he was the father just to buy some time... something... ANYTHING to keep it from happening.

I would leave DH in a heartbeat if he thought that were an acceptable thing to do to anyone, let alone a newborn babe. I guess if it meant that much to him, he would lose me with the foreskin. I'd be preparing for legal action, if any can be taken before the babe were born.

I'm hardcore about it. It would be THE END OF THE EFFING WORLD if someone were seriously thinking about doing that to my child.

[ZoshaMosha]

See if you can consult a lawyer. I'd let your husband and pediatrician know that you would be planning on taking legal action against them if your ds is circ'd without your consent.

[Kelly Jene]

Keep educating him! Stand firm, but don't give up on him yet! Good luck.

[MCatLvrMom2A&X]

Originally Posted by glongley

I know of one family here in Colorado, where the boy came home intact, and a few weeks later the dad took the baby and got him circumcised while the mother was taking a nap. So it can happen.

I think your husband needs some compassion as he grapples with this. Sorry to hear him complain about you having difficulty having an orgasm, but he certainly is likely to feel his masculinity is threatened if you compare how he is able to satisfy you, to how a previous intact partner was able to. This may make him all the more insistent on having your son circumcised, just to rationalize to himself that nothing is wrong with him.

I think with time he will come around, and you have plenty of time. He probably never even thought about it before, and now he is having to work through all kinds of subconscious emotional reactions to the idea. It definitely takes time. Be compassionate with him but stay firm on it. Most doctors have the sense not to do something like this if they know the parents are in disagreement, but cover all your bases as far as notifying all parties (OBs, pediatricians, hospital risk management representatives, etc.) in writing, repeatedlly if necessary, that you do not give permission and that you will take legal action if they do it with your husband's OK alone.

Gillian

That would so be the end of my marriage :

In the hospital the mother must sign the concent the father cannot. After you leave that is a whole other ballgame.

[FullMetalMom]

Originally Posted by Contrariety

I would leave DH in a heartbeat if he thought that were an acceptable thing to do to anyone, let alone a newborn babe. I guess if it meant that much to him, he would lose me with the foreskin. I'd be preparing for legal action, if any can be taken before the babe were born.

: I would not stay married to someone like that.

[Greg B]

He apparently is too emotional to listen to reason at this time. But you have some time, so keep after him to read and think about it. You may want to work on the human rights issue as well.

And here is a good reference that is written by doctors, and covers all the important points carefully and with references, in case it helps.

http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcisi...yStatement.pdf

I think you need to keep the argument as unemotional as you can. He should be making the time and effort to lay out his arguments in a logical fashion. The default should be genital integrity. Anything else needs to be justified in a way that a reasonable person could see the logical path leading to that decision and agree with the decision. Not an emotional outburst and threat to do it while you are asleep.

While he may have been RIC and not remember it, nor feel that it has reduced his sexual function or pleasure, the recomendations have changed since he was cut. Medical Organizations no longer recommend it. There are many reasons to wait if there is disagreement. What is his argument against waiting until the child can make his own decision?


If you can get him to explore why he is so emotional about it. Likely he is afraid of something. Perhaps how his son will be treated by...whoever. This is all fear based on assumptions. He needs to explore this and why he feels this way. It can be difficult and take a long time, but may allow him to realize that he is not keeping the best interest of his child in mind, but rather his own fears about something he does not know enough about.

You may also want to contact Attorneys for the Rights of the Child to see what they may suggest:

http://www.arclaw.org/

Best wishes

[stellimamo]

Does your husband work out of the home? My was not as insistent about circ but wasn't sure about uncirc. I finally told him how I thought and explained to him that I would under no circumstances do anything involved w/ the procedure if he decided to go behind my back (which he never threatened to do, I just wanted to head that idea off at the pass) and have it done. If he had it done he would have to take 6 weeks off work to do all the wound care and diaper changes.
He couldn't take 6 weeks off so that was the end of the discussion. Now a year later he has no regrets about not having it done and is pretty anti circ himself.

Truly though if my husband were threatening to do something like circ behind my back I would be looking deeper into my relationship. I don't know if I could enjoy family lif if I was constantly worrying about my dh running off and circing my son against my wishes. Thats a huge trust issue.

Best of luck.

[liseux]

You definitely don't deserve to have to worry when you are fresh out of surgery that your baby will be hurt. I'm sorry your husband is putting this pressure on you, but I agree with the pp who thinks maybe he is being defensive b/c he is hurt. I feel for him too.

I have a friend who was sleeping after her c/s & did not want to circ & her dh had it done while she was sleeping. But... she did not put the paperwork machinery into motion, she was just hoping he would change his mind.

I would tell your OB, everyone in the practice, when you go alone to your appointments, that you refuse the procedure no matter what dh says. I would also put in writing in your pre-auth kit you send to the hospital. I would tell every nurse involved in prepping you & when you are alone for the spinal placement, tell them again. I would tell every nurse that cares for you postpartum. Keep a few copies of the refusal form & give them to all nurses & OB's that come in your room. The OB is probably the one who would do it, thats how it works here. If its not his/her patient, they won't care about the circ. So, find out exactly who would do the circ and then talk to them personally & in writing. And when you get home... if you're still worried about it, just don't let him out of your sight. By the time he's a month old or so, your dh will hopefully be used to the idea. Good luck & I hope he comes around, by the birth.

[MadameXCupcake]

Originally Posted by Contrariety

His insistence to circ would be the end of my marriage, period. I would claim in the hospital that I wasn't really so sure he was the father just to buy some time... something... ANYTHING to keep it from happening.

:
I want my whole baby and I would do anything to protect every part of my baby.

[kangaroomum25]

If you were having a girl and you were going to circumcise the girl would he really be ok with that?

[Super Pickle]

Dear Mi.birthdoula,
I just wanted to say that it's very possible that he won't be as adamant once the baby is born. My husband backed off a _lot_ after our son was born. I would also recommend focusing more in your arguments about the fact that it's unnecessary torture and not your right to make the decision for your child, and backing off on the fact that it's sexually damaging. THat's not what your DH wants to hear. HTH!

[StephM76]

You still have time to work on your DH. I think that mentioning that you had better sexual experiences with an intact partner set you back a lot, and made your husband even more defensive than he normally would have been.

Try showing him the video and all of the reasons why it is not recommended anymore. If he is still adamant about it, I'd see a lawyer. Write up a letter that states if your son if circumcised without YOUR consent you will sue the hospital and the doctor, I'm sure then you won't have to worry, at least in the hospital.

[Quirky]

You know, I'm a hardass this way, but here's what I would do. I would sit down with my husband and say something along the lines of:

Honey, I love you and I know this is hard for you to accept.

But listen to me and listen well, because I am going to tell you this one time and one time only.

I love you and want to stay married to you. I want our baby to be raised by both his parents.

Circumcision is not our decision to make for our child. It is his body and his penis and he is the only one who gets to decide whether to cut his foreskin off, when he is an adult.

If you go behind my back and violate our child's basic human right to his own bodily self-determination, you will be ending our marriage. I will not stay married to someone who disrespects our child and disrespects me in such a flagrant way.

If you circumcise our baby, it will be a physical attack on him and I will not stay with someone who abuses our child any more than I will stay with someone who abuses me.

So just wrap your head around this right now -- our son will not be circumcised. Period. End of discussion. If you do it, our marriage will be over that minute. Period. End of discussion.

And I simply would not engage on the subject any more. There is nothing to discuss, nothing to debate. I will not listen to threats to do it, and I will not listen to your tantrums.

But that's me.

[Nandi]

Has anyone suggested the Penn and Teller video yet? Will he watch a video of it being done? I think you have time to present him with facts.
Also that story posted above of the husband sneaking off to have it done while the mom napped, is absolutely horrifying. That would be the end of my marriage as well.
It should be as illegal for boys as it is for girls.
Doctors should not be allowed to continue to torture infants this way!