Am I being irresponsible?

[principii]

: Not sure what to think.

Firstly, this is my first post in this particular forum, so hello, I'm coming out of the closet.

DD has had no vax as of yet. I can't say it's because I believe she shouldn't; I'm quite simply at a loss! I don't know if I should, or shouldn't.

Our theory/stance on life in general is: how much can one try to prevent before "preventing life from ending" ends up taking up most your life? (if that makes sense)... it seems more and more these days that every ounce of life is spent trying to keep life alive! To us, it makes no sense. I hope this doesn't come out the wrong way, I'm being rather forthright here, but we truly believe that life should happen naturally. We bank a lot of trust in God. That being said, I don't know where to draw the line. For example, if one has a headache, we aren't going to scorn them for taking medicine for it! But then there comes this gray area in the practice of medicine, in terms of ethic, when you have to ask where to draw the line. Suffering is drawn out, just to keep life alive... folks in nursing homes, on life support, etc etc... but it all began somewhere. The snowball started at the top of the hill, with some symptom being treated with some antidote. I see vaccines as being purely preventative measures. But at the same time, my husband's a pharmacist, my dad's a doctor; they spend their lives (in turn) trying to help others stay alive! My husband, especially - he takes no meds for himself, and hasn't gotten after me for not vaccinating C yet. But it's like a silent issue. Yes, we've had the "preventative" talk before, and he agrees that too much time is spent maintaining life instead of enjoying what time we have been given.
On the flip side, God obviously allowed man to "discover" these methods of prevention; that life can be prolonged is not an intrinsically bad thing. It's like a form of taking life in our own hands, though... similar to NFP: it's a form of power over something we technically don't have power over. Though God calls you when He calls you. So I'm confused.
I guess my basic question is: I can't "decide" - (why is this power in my hands?!) - where to draw the line with vaccines. Partial? None? All? I've seen a friend of mine's younger brother die from measles at eleven. That wasn't fun. But it was REAL. So much of life lacks reality these days.

Am I being irresponsible? It's not like I don't care. I do. Lots. I just want to do the *Right* thing. :

Alright, that's enough of my being forthright for tonight.

[SheepNumber97245]

I don't think you're being irresponsible at all. I think you're smart for questioning it, rather than just going alone with it because it's "the thing you do". I can offer you some advice based on finding what I wanted to do, I hope that helps a little.

When I was two months pregnant I heard about the risks with vaccines so I spent every day researching on the internet... and by that I mean: I woke up, went straight to the computer, researched, ate while at the computer, and stayed their all day long, went to sleep, and started again the next day... for two weeks. I decided after all that reading, I'm going to absolutely wait until my son is at least seven years old. And even then, I will be selectively vaxing.

A good place to start is to find out which vaccines are recommended and required for school (even if you plan on home schooling) in your state. Make a list of them, then research each one. You can cross out the ones you find not necessary, and circle the ones you think you might want to consider. Make little notes beside them, or write out info on index cards if it helps. I know that may sound like a lot of work, but it's really not a subject to handle lightly, I'm sure you know that or you wouldn't be questioning it in the first place.

From my research, I think the main one that is just absolutely ridiculous is the chicken pox vaccine. Chicken pox as a child is itchy and uncomfortable, but as an adult it can actually be life threatening. When you get chicken pox as a kid it usually makes your body immune to it for the rest of your life. However, if you are given the vaccine for chicken pox as a child you will be immune to it for only the durration of childhood, making you vulnerable when you are an adult...you know, when it's deadly. Now what sense does that make??

[Ktietje85]

I also did a ton of research, and I also trust God.

I think you should do the research too. What I came up with is that vaccines, in many cases, don't even work. Or if they do, they do at the expense of messing with the body's natural defenses. My DD, totally non-vax, has had a few minor colds and tummy viruses, but never had a fever, and quickly fought off the illnesses. If that doesn't say her own body's defenses are doing a good job, I don't know what does.

There are so MANY concerns about vaccines. Research about the tetanus virus. Research specifically "adjuvants." Research thimerosal. EVERYTHING you can think of. Ask your father how the body forms immunity. You'll find doctors have an "idea" but honestly don't totally know.

So, for me...it came down to, the vaccines are not guaranteed to work, they need to be boostered, they mess with the body's natural defenses, they train the body to respond in unnatural ways (did you know cancer is now one of the leading causes of death in kids under 5? WHY?!), and are just not worth it. I trust God gave us the right immunities to avoid serious illness. And I accept the responsibility for the possibility that my daughter *may* come down with one of the vaccine-preventable illnesses. But, if you were wondering...unvaccinated kids who get sick are less likely to suffer serious complications, while vaccinated kids who get sick anyway are MORE likely to suffer serious consequences.

Not only ALL of that...but...about 12 people die from measles in this country each YEAR. I read an article (on www.naturalnews.com) that stated that 14 people each DAY die of food borne illness. That's a WAY bigger deal! I'm not sure why the CDC and the public are not flipping out about this!

So -- if you trust in God, and keep your kid healthy with fresh, healthy food, then you will be fine. It is NOT irresponsible to go against the status quo; it is mature and responsible.

[brendaziz]

For me- my faith in God does not mean that I think my child will never get sick- or even that somethign horribly tragic will not happen to them.
I do believe that God has given wonderful minds to many people that have discovered things that help to heal people.
However- I don't feel that vaccines are 100% safe and effective. Anyone that says that they are 100% is not telling the truth.
In my heart and mind it has come down to peace. I have prayed and prayed over this issue and when it comes down to it- what would I have a harder time living with?
Making the decision to vaccinate and having my child suffer a horrible reaction- whether immediate or down the road? OR making the decision to not, knowing that my child could very possibly come down with an illness that could possibly hurt them somehow?
I have peace in not vaccinating. I hope that you find peace in whatever you choose.

[applejuice]

Researching and making the best decisions for you and your child's health is responsible behavior since you will be living with those decisions.

BTW, I just renewed my first aid and cpr training with the red cross. One of the points made about disease transmission (gloves, face masks, mouth guards) is that there needs to be a germ, there needs to be susceptibility, and there needs to be an open point of transmission for disease to spread. This was Beauchamp's point against Pasteur.

[GTyler]

I see vaccines as being purely preventative measures. But at the same time, my husband's a pharmacist, my dad's a doctor; they spend their lives (in turn) trying to help others stay alive! My husband, especially - he takes no meds for himself, and hasn't gotten after me for not vaccinating C yet. But it's like a silent issue.Wise thing to do is loads of research and i am talking research via holistic practicioners/holistic health websites not the CDC vaccine websites these are one sided,not looking out for the best interest of you or your baby but their stock investors/making billions in profits by selling prescriptions/vaccines. There is another way to heal/stay well via homeopathy/naturopathy/herbs/vitamins/supplm/not vaccinating www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com
might help regards these questions................
no vaccine is a save vaccine.................
www.thinktwice.com
www.909shot.com
loads of info on the dangers of vaccines
when you see these vaccine dangers manifest in babies/children /teens in your practice it becomes obvious there are no questions "are vaccines save"/Do we need vaccines?............................the answer is absolutely NO

[Ruthla]

Don't forget, as part of your research, to see how you can treat each of these "vaccine preventable" illnesses. Measles is rarely fatal in relatively healthy individuals who are getting enough vitamins A and C (and possibly a few other vitamins.) I'm sure it was heart-wrenching to actually watch a child die of measles- but keep in mind that it doesn't have to be that way. If your child contracts this illness, there ARE things you can to to help him or her recover more quickly.

[applejuice]

Originally Posted by Ruthla

Don't forget, as part of your research, to see how you can treat each of these "vaccine preventable" illnesses. Measles is rarely fatal in relatively healthy individuals who are getting enough vitamins A and C (and possibly a few other vitamins.) I'm sure it was heart-wrenching to actually watch a child die of measles- but keep in mind that it doesn't have to be that way. If your child contracts this illness, there ARE things you can to to help him or her recover more quickly.

There is an entire chapter in How To Raise A Healthy Child, In Spite Of Your Doctor, by Dr. Robert Mendelsohn on how to recognize a VPD (since many young doctors have never seen one in their lifetime) and how to treat them and when to ask for help from a doctor.

[FernG]

I know what you mean!

Your post resonated with me. My DH and I talked about this issue extensively. For example, to prevent 1 case of GBS, 200 GBS+ mothers must take antibiotics during labor causing 200 infants to have impaired gut health and be at increased risk for sepsis for at least 6 years (the longest study we could find). Is that price worth preventing 1 case of GBS? My DH and I decided it was not. By preserving 1 life at all costs, 200 infants have a lower quality of life.

Similar statistics for vaccines aren't available, but the questions are similar. How many HiB cases will be prevented by the vaccine and how many cases of type 1 diabetes will be caused by the vaccine? How many cases of measles are prevented by the MMR and how many kids suffer with asthma, allergies, and neurological disorders because of the MMR and other vaccines?

We've concluded that society would benefit if everyone stopped vaccinating.

[Marnica]

I agree with PP's.....reasearch reasearch resaerch!!! I am going on 3 years with my research and find new info everyday. my faith in God also allows me to realize that God gave man free will to make choices and decide what is right. We have to make these choices for our children. I have not found any info about vaccines that make me think the benefits outweigh the risks. Ther are a handful that I believe ARE effective as preventative measures, but at what price?? I feel the risks are far scarier.
As for your friend's brother and the measles, while that is tragic, I would find it very interesting to know the health of this child prior to infection and if he was healthy with no underlying issues than Id be curious if he was given tylenol or motrin. I believe that most measles deaths are because the disease symptoms are mismanaged.
As for God allowing man to discover these things in medicine...Im not sure Im with you there. Yes medicine can be life saving, but then again, it is aso kills more people a year than many of the diseases it is meant to treat. I see vaccines (at this point) not about saving lives, but about making money. The entire industry is totally corrupt and riddled with conflict of interest.
I wish you luck in finding peace with whatever you decide!

[buttercupmama]

For me, it's not a matter of faith in anything but more a lack thereof. I've been misdiagnosed, undiagnosed, prescribed many drugs, and shot up like an addict, and 95% of this was in my childhood. I was vaccinated and had asthma and ADHD. Were they caused by the vaccines? Who knows really? I am very sensitive to drugs and have suffered a lot at the hands of doctors. I have no good or fond memories relating to modern medical practices and customs.

I'm a lot better today, having found lifestyle changes--like diet--and other gems through my own personal research. I know now that I didn't have to be a sickly child, that I wasn't born defective and meant to suffer. I can't blame my mother. She did her best with the information available to her at the time. I'm just glad better information is available now that I have my own child so she won't have to suffer like I did. I'm still angry about some things surrounding her birth, but I know I have to move on. When it's her turn, she'll be in a better place and I'll be encouraging her to read as much as possible. It's our only hope in this life. We can't trust our babies to strangers. After all, most of their doctors really are just that. No doctor knows my baby better than I do.

Many people today take at least one drug--usually a painkiller--and some take many more. If you believe, like the drug companies, that we need drugs, you're saying that you believe that we're defective by nature. I don't believe that. Something is responsible for our health problems. We're usually not aware of what exactly that is. Is your body deficient in aspirin? Is there even an RDA for aspirin? I became allergic to it after years of using it. Interestingly, you're told to limit your baby's intake of known allergens for the first few years of life because not doing so can increase the chances of him/her becoming allergic to them. Perhaps that isn't only limited to infancy and toddlerhood but it just hasn't been studied yet.

There are a lot of things we still don't know. What we do know is the body can function normally and well if given the right tools. Vaccines are full of toxic substances. I'm not even addressing the mercury. It also contains very high doses of aluminum as well as animal DNA. Would you want your dog's DNA injected into your child? Just an example.

So for us, so far, the best option has been to be as natural as possible. In the beginning, I did take dandelion for her bilirubin level, but I completely believe it only rose because of issues with her birth caused by modern medical practices. Since then, we have taken nothing but vitamins and minerals and I like it that way. I'm sure she'll appreciate that when she's older.

[nycmom18]

I understand your confusion and "let be, let god" philosophy. and i myself have not come to any conclusion about vaccinations, though we havent done any yet because, like the other posts, i dont fully believe in a lot of them and the risks vs. benefits thing etc.

however, i must say, that if i ever do decide that a disease which is preventable by a vaccine that imo would be efficient, and it would prevent my child from death or any other major consequences, then i am going to utilize the science we have now and "take it into my own hands" to prevent my child from suffering. i could look at that as God giving us those tools to save our children should need be. (major run-on sentence!)

so, i agree with other people that you should ask your father and husband their opinion on the science and determine with your husband what is right for your family. best of luck.

[Amila]

I often feel as if a lot of my energy is spent worrying about "preventing death" like you mentioned. It DOES take up a lot of my life- but thats another story.

When it comes to vaccines, though, here is my stance:

I TRUST my children's bodies to do what they were made to do, and I believe that they will because I do not compromise when it comes to feeding them the best stuff 99% of the time.

I TRUST Mother Nature

I DO NOT TRUST Merck.

My husband laughs at me all the time. I freak out OCD style over every swollen lymph node, fever, bump and bruise, but don't give the non-vax thing a second thought.

[principii]

Oh my goodness, thank you for all the wonderful replies.

I've been digging around online, there's a LOT of info out there! Each time I read an article touting vax, I think - oh, I should! Then when I read about the horrors of them from another article, I think - oh never, I would never! So I'm still wavering. But still researching... and I WILL talk to my dad and DH some more about it. When the timing's right.

Thank you all - this is so tough! Does anybody have an article from a medical doctor's standpoint, ie., not homeopathic, etc., that talks about the negative side of vaccines? - I just want something my DH and dad will regard as "worthy reading" - ya know?

[Emmeline II]

Stephanie Cave and Neil Miller are doctor's with books about vax.

Here are some questions to answer for yourself in deciding about vax.

1. Name of the disease
2. Description of the disease
3. Length of time from initial infection to end of all symptoms
4. Infectious period
5. Normal symptoms of the disease
6. Known serious consequences of the disease
7. Proportion of persons infected developing serious consequences
8. Transmission route of the disease
9. Prevalence of the disease
10. Treatments of the disease and efficacy of those treatments
11. Relevant research about the disease
12. Name of the vaccine
13. Company that makes the vaccine
14. Contents of the vaccine
14A. The significance of whether or not the vaccine is live
15. History of development of the vaccine
16. Known side-effects of the vaccine and rate of incidence of those side-effects
17. Possible side-effects not yet acknowledged by the vaccine maker
18. Relevant research into the vaccine
19. How effective is the vaccine at preventing the disease?
20.What is the vaccine meant to do? (Many vaccines are not meant to prevent infection or transmission).
21.Number of cases reported each year.
22.Number of deaths reported each year from the vaccine and natural disease.

Here are some sources to help you out:

Inside Vaccines

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/mmwr_wk.html (download the current issue)
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pin...k-chapters.htm
http://vaers.hhs.gov/pdf/PackageInserts.pdf
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...40451107552&q=
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...87981735&hl=en
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pin...ses&deaths.pdf

[nycmom18]

i hear ya on the waivering thing! i equate that to fear mostly-from both sides. anyway, why not pick up the book "how to raise a healthy child in spite of your doctor" by mendehlson sp? he was a doctor and wrote it about 20 years ago-before all of the questioning of vaccines was happening so often.

[GTyler]

Websites from the CDC are a one sided slant towards vaccine statistical manipulation.
here are other ones you might like with evidence vaccines had- no- effect of diseases all though history;

(there are always two sides to every story)
www.vaccinationdebate.com
GRAPHICAL EVIDENCE SHOWS VACCINES DIDN'T SAVE US

HISTORICAL FACTS EXPOSING THE DANGERS AND INEFFECTIVENESS OF VACCINES

DOCTORS AND SCIENTISTS CONDEMN VACCINATION

WHY VACCINES ARE INEFFECTIVE

WHY VACCINES ARE HARMFUL

WHY VACCINATION CONTINUES

THE BENEFICIAL NATURE OF CHILDHOOD INFECTIO


charts to indicate what vaccines did to diseases (no effect at all) www.vaclib.org
www.vaccineinfo.net
http://thinktwice.com/ploys.htm
fraud done in vaccine testing, big-pharma suppresses information on the dangers of vaccines,manipulation through media,intimidation,coercion,falsely justify the use of vaccines.......................................... ......

[Ophelia]

Originally Posted by principii

Does anybody have an article from a medical doctor's standpoint, ie., not homeopathic, etc., that talks about the negative side of vaccines? - I just want something my DH and dad will regard as "worthy reading" - ya know?

Dr. Sheri Tenpenny, I have her video linked on my website. Check it out. She also has a website. She was an emergency room physician and has studied vaccines extensively. Also Dr. Jay Gordon, he is more middle of the road. He has some great info on his DVD.

Actually, here is a thread that talks about docs who either don't vaccinate or are vaccine-wary:

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=995169

[GTyler]

GRAPHICAL EVIDENCE SHOWS VACCINES DIDN'T SAVE US


(Hmmmm my charts did not show up here? Please go to the link) www.vaccinationdebate.com/web1.html

GRAPHICAL EVIDENCE SHOWS VACCINES DIDN'T SAVE US











The above graphs, based on the official death numbers as recorded in the Official Year Books of the Commonwealth of Australia, are taken from Greg Beattie's excellent book "Vaccination A Parent's Dilemma" and represent the decline in death rates from infectious disease in Australia. They clearly show that vaccines had nothing to do with the decline in death rates. (Note: Graphical evidence on the decline in death rates from infectious disease for USA, England, New Zealand and many other

[principii]

Whoa. I've been looking through this stuff off and on all day today, as time allows...

there's one point that keeps running through my head. I bring it up to air it out, so to speak; interested in what y'all think as well...

Fear of vaccine-preventable diseases has diminished while concerns about vaccine safety have increased
because
Decades ago, when thousands of children and adults in the United States contracted smallpox, diphtheria, poliomyelitis or measles each year, vaccine safety concerns were not very common. People were more afraid of the diseases themselves than of possible side effects of the vaccines.


This makes sense to me. But I'm still a newbie yet. Still learning, digging... digging deeper, deeper.

I'm meeting with a friend tomorrow, who coincidentally doesn't vax! I mentioned my interest (like I said before, I'm coming out of the closet on this whole topic, nobody except my immediate family knows I haven't vaccinated my DD) - anyway, I mentioned my interest in researching deeper so when we go out tomorrow - guess what we'll be talkin' about! I'm rather excited!! Sometimes it's so much easier IRL...