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Driving Illegally - Page 2

post #21 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Socks for Supper View Post
You can be (and will be) arrested on the spot if caught driving while suspended (at least here in Oregon). The car also gets towed immediately. This happened to me years ago while a friend was driving w/out a license, and after he was arrested, and his vehicle towed, the police officer kindly offered me a ride home.

I personally would be extremely wary of allowing my child in a vehicle with a driver who didn't have a license for this reason...though I'm sure that police and/or social services would take good care of the children until Mom could arrive. Still, that would suck.
It would. But SFS, again, you're going by the standards of the concerned mother, not the standards of the court. Withholding custody for any reason that doesn't involve clear, provable physical endangerment...if you do that sort of thing when you go back, the odds are terrific that you really will lose custody. I've seen women delay handing over children when they knew the kids were being hit or just being treated badly, and then lose custody. My lawyer told me in no uncertain terms that if I refused to let dd go with my xh just because I knew, from my own experience, that he was not really in his right mind, I'd be risking custody loss. Unless a psychiatrist would be willing to say he was dangerous, he's not dangerous, as far as the court's concerned, and I'd be blocking access.

I think it's crucial to your own case that you understand -- in most cases the courts are not going to get involved and say the parent is so dangerous that the kid shouldn't be with them. They view lousy parenting as a fact of life, and for the most part are concerned only with protecting the kids from clearly, demonstrably dangerous parenting, or absence of parenting. Watching dad get arrested -- regrettable, but not child endangerment. The fact that driving illegally demonstrates Dad's irresponsibility and sets a poor example-- yes, but many parents are irresponsible and set poor examples. The question is whether or not the kid's in immediate danger, and the court's answer is probably no.
post #22 of 36
I would demand to see the car insurance, if there's no license and no insurance, guess who's going to pay the hospital when he wrecks the car and injures a child who needs extensive medical treatment.
post #23 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by ginger_rodgers View Post
It would. But SFS, again, you're going by the standards of the concerned mother, not the standards of the court. Withholding custody for any reason that doesn't involve clear, provable physical endangerment...if you do that sort of thing when you go back, the odds are terrific that you really will lose custody. I've seen women delay handing over children when they knew the kids were being hit or just being treated badly, and then lose custody. My lawyer told me in no uncertain terms that if I refused to let dd go with my xh just because I knew, from my own experience, that he was not really in his right mind, I'd be risking custody loss. Unless a psychiatrist would be willing to say he was dangerous, he's not dangerous, as far as the court's concerned, and I'd be blocking access.

I think it's crucial to your own case that you understand -- in most cases the courts are not going to get involved and say the parent is so dangerous that the kid shouldn't be with them. They view lousy parenting as a fact of life, and for the most part are concerned only with protecting the kids from clearly, demonstrably dangerous parenting, or absence of parenting. Watching dad get arrested -- regrettable, but not child endangerment. The fact that driving illegally demonstrates Dad's irresponsibility and sets a poor example-- yes, but many parents are irresponsible and set poor examples. The question is whether or not the kid's in immediate danger, and the court's answer is probably no.
Why do I feel like I'm being stalked? Op already stated that she has sole legal and physical custody, and is not in any danger of losing custodial rights by not letting ex take the kids. She's not withholding custody at all, if she simply removes the issue by only letting the ex's wife drive.

I cant even imagine a world where a judge would revoke sole custody from the Mom because she refused to let her kids ride in a car driven by someone who may or may not have a license to drive.

And I'm coming from the concerned mother's view because I am one. And obviously so is the OP, because she posted this concern in the first place.
post #24 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Socks for Supper View Post
Why do I feel like I'm being stalked? Op already stated that she has sole legal and physical custody, and is not in any danger of losing custodial rights by not letting ex take the kids. She's not withholding custody at all, if she simply removes the issue by only letting the ex's wife drive.
SFS, she doesn't have the right to insist that the exwife drive. Neither will you, after your custody matters are settled.

Quote:
I cant even imagine a world where a judge would revoke sole custody from the Mom because she refused to let her kids ride in a car driven by someone who may or may not have a license to drive.
Sure you can imagine that world. You live in it. The very fastest road to getting custody yanked is to go against a court custody order. It doesn't seem to matter what state you live in, whether you're breastfeeding, or what your excuse is. If the other parent isn't using the kids in Satanic rituals, and goes in saying "She withheld the kids and I want a custody change", and it's true, you can pretty much count on losing custody.

I am so sorry to have to say these things, SFS, and I'm hoping you're just saying "Oh poo that can't be right" as a denial thing while accepting the realities. But if not, you really need to prepare yourself: When you divorce you lose a great deal of what every mother thinks of as the ordinary ability to protect and raise her children. During every visitation period, your son will disappear into another world where you have zero control, unless your stbx decides to give you some, or he's provably and fairly seriously abusive or neglectful, well beyond the realm of ordinary parental dysfunction.

That's one of the hardest things we struggle with, and why I stayed married as long as I did. And if your stbx doesn't bother, it will be entirely your job to try to make some continuity between that world and yours. So, you know. These are the stakes.
post #25 of 36
If what gr says is true, I'd ask the police to come to the next exchange and if he drives up and indeed has no license and no insurance they can cite him, which will create a record for the courts to follow.
post #26 of 36
It'd be nifty if they came and did that. But, pranamama, here's the conversation I'm foreseeing between the OP and the judge. It boils down to the fact that the suspended license does not have a single thing to do with his ability to drive safely on the evening of January 17th, unless there's evidence that he's still drinking and driving, in which case the OP may be able to do something. But that should also be done through the court.

Otherwise, the suspended license is between himself and the state, and I'm betting the judge would want to know why you felt it was necessary to insert yourself.
post #27 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by ginger_rodgers View Post
It'd be nifty if they came and did that. But, pranamama, here's the conversation I'm foreseeing between the OP and the judge. It boils down to the fact that the suspended license does not have a single thing to do with his ability to drive safely on the evening of January 17th, unless there's evidence that he's still drinking and driving, in which case the OP may be able to do something. But that should also be done through the court.

Otherwise, the suspended license is between himself and the state, and I'm betting the judge would want to know why you felt it was necessary to insert yourself.
I guess it's best to remember things vary from state to state. Where I live you'd run a higher risk of loosing your kids for driving them illegally. Not just wishful ideal thinking, but based on the custody situations of friends. Also here calling a cop out could be looked at favorably by the judge (as long as you're not the type to come in to his courtroom every couple of weeks trying to prove the other parent unfit).

OP - I wouldn't send them, unless the wife was there to drive. Once the kids leave they might pull over a block away & switch drivers, but at least you tried & if he's stopped she'd be there to either take the kids back to you or to your house.
post #28 of 36
Take a second look at what you titled your thread - he is "Driving Illegally" - I feel that is a SERIOUS issue, esp with dc. It is ILLEGAL to drive without a license. *note, I am on board with PP that talked about doing damage control for, but allowing xh's crazy behaviors for dc framework learning but never when it is a LEGAL or SAFETY issue. But it is such a struggle post divorce to figure out how to handle these issues! Lots of good and varying comments here for you to mull over. WWID? I would email him a brief summary of the current situation, state that due to his history, he will need to either bring a licensed driver or his current license to pick up the dc. Then follow that statement at the next visitation. If he fails that legal (not your) expectation, than he fails to have his visitation. HIS FAULT. Not a hill issue to die upon... I know it is easier said than done. Hoping for the best.
post #29 of 36
If their safety isn't an issue, don't give it another thought. Not the hill to die on
post #30 of 36
There are 2 issues here:

1. He is driving illegally, and could be arrested for that (uh, depending on which state you're in, I guess) AND Your daughter expressed concern/fear for her safety in reporting some really crazy driving he was doing.

3. He called you the "b" word?!

This strikes me as a control issue (calling you a bitch for being uptight about it reeks of manipulation and abusive blackmail) on his part. Does he have a pattern of inching his way into more and more areas that YOU would rather be off limits?

I think in this one, if he was generally a safe person and respectful of your boundaries in general, I would seriously consider this from only a safety standpoint, and consider your own intuition as a mother in deciding whether or not you are comfortable with this. (Would you let them drive with anyone else without a license, for example, or just their dad?)

If he's basically got a pattern of looking for ways to take control and power, and is using this as one more boundary to leap over, I think I would hold my ground and maintain this boundary, rather than deal with the potential of him leaping over the next boundary, and the next, and the next.

Either way, what I would do is not what you would do, though. It just is seeming to me that this really needs to be about your intuition and about your honest feelings in regards to your kids and their needs and their safety, and also about your boundaries, and your needs and your feelings for safety.

I'm assuming here, as you said, that your decision is not going to affect your custody situation or violate your parenting plan.
post #31 of 36
You are not in anyway required to let him take your kids in a vehicle that he is driving if you know that he does not have a driver's license.

In fact, the next time you talk to him about his parenting time, be sure to let him know that if he is the one driving, he better have his legitimate driver's license as you not only will not let him take the kids, you will also call the cops and let them know that there is an unlicensed driver driving a vehicle, you will give them the license plate number and the direction he went in and what address he left from.

He will either not show up or bring a licensed driver with him. This doesn't mean that he won't drive at all with the kids when he has them. He will just do it when you can't see it.
post #32 of 36
definitely not an overreaction. there is a reason that the state opts not to give him a license and there is no way that i would allow a child to go with someone that i knew was just rolling with not license. you are right about being concerned.
post #33 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by ginger_rodgers View Post
Please think a little before posting. She doesn't have a choice about letting the kids go with him unless she's got clear evidence that he's going to be seriously endangering them. Having an expired license and past DUIs won't do it for the judges. His showing up drunk, yes.

If she refuses to let them go she can lose custody. Do you still think it would be smart for her to refusing to let them go?

She would not get into trouble for refusing to let an unlicensed driver, even if it is their father, take her children. She would be just as guilty of breaking the law (driving without a license is illegal and can be considered child endangerment if there are children in the car) as he is.

Now, if she were to refuse to let them go if he has a licensed driver with him to drive, then she would be in contempt of court.
post #34 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by ginger_rodgers View Post
It'd be nifty if they came and did that. But, pranamama, here's the conversation I'm foreseeing between the OP and the judge. It boils down to the fact that the suspended license does not have a single thing to do with his ability to drive safely on the evening of January 17th, unless there's evidence that he's still drinking and driving, in which case the OP may be able to do something. But that should also be done through the court.

Otherwise, the suspended license is between himself and the state, and I'm betting the judge would want to know why you felt it was necessary to insert yourself.
And I am betting the opposite. A judge isn't going to hold the mother responsible for not sending the children off in a car with someone who is driving ILLEGALLY.

Doesn't matter if he is a safe driver or not, he is an UNLICENSED driver. How he got to be that way is irrelevant, what matters is that he doesn't have a license.
post #35 of 36
Thread Starter 
I really appreciate all of your thoughts everyone. Thank you!
post #36 of 36
mmace, for some reason I have linked your double drunk driving ex mentally with the dumb guy in Idaho who let his 10 yr old try to walk ten miles in the snow and she died of exposure, (the guy just drove off when he got his car unstuck and didn't check on his kid.) The police intended to charge him with murder for that.

Trust your instincts.
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