I feel like I'm on a sinking ship - Page 2

[ASusan]

Originally Posted by Marnica

Wow...you really are in for an uphill battle it sounds like. A fruitless one I believe. I agree with PP. Your DH seems to have made up his mind and it is totally closed. Yes he agreed to read the 4 things you asked him to, but undoubtedly jus so he can rip them apart and prove them wrong. What would happen if you basically said to your DH what I said to mine. "We are vaccinating over my dead body"...just wondering what response you would get.

LOTS and lots of arguing and further decline of our marriage, communication, day-to-day functioning.

One thing that does give me hope is that DS has yet to get a vaccine at 15 mos. This is evidence to DH that I've had my way for a long time, now it is time for me to listen to him...but it also may say that there is a small, teeny, tiny crack in DH mind. If it were SO important to him, why hasn't he taken DS in to get vaccinated himself? DH is the type of father who goes to all doctor's appointments with DS and myself. He is VERY involved in the hands-on aspect of DS's care (health and otherwise).

Of course, DH thinks that my position is that I want to avoid vaccines forever and I'm using delay tactics to allow that to happen. I don't necessarily have that position. BUT, I do want each one to be researched...

[Murihiku]

Originally Posted by ASusan

If it were SO important to him, why hasn't he taken DS in to get vaccinated himself?

Of course, DH thinks that my position is that I want to avoid vaccines forever and I'm using delay tactics to allow that to happen. I don't necessarily have that position. BUT, I do want each one to be researched...

A spouse can't really do something to the child over the other spouse's wishes; the spouse that decides "no action" is usually the one that wins out.

Reading your last paragraph here, it occurs to me that you could tell him you are willing to do selective vaccination. When he says "which ones?" you could tell him you'll take his suggestions on board. That way, he is more likely to research with an open mind, and he may even change his mind if he's researching with the attitude that you are willing to compromise with him.

Only do that if you are theoretically willing to compromise; otherwise it's a manipulative and dishonest strategy that may backfire.

And how much of your conflict is about vaxes and how much is about the marriage in general?

Good luck!

[Marnica]

Originally Posted by Murihiku

A spouse can't really do something to the child over the other spouse's wishes; the spouse that decides "no action" is usually the one that wins out.

Reading your last paragraph here, it occurs to me that you could tell him you are willing to do selective vaccination. When he says "which ones?" you could tell him you'll take his suggestions on board. That way, he is more likely to research with an open mind, and he may even change his mind if he's researching with the attitude that you are willing to compromise with him.

Only do that if you are theoretically willing to compromise; otherwise it's a manipulative and dishonest strategy that may backfire.

And how much of your conflict is about vaxes and how much is about the marriage in general?


Good luck!

Agree with above poster. Although I will say that one person certainly CAN do something against the others wishes. happens all the time. One parents can take the kid to the MD and have them vaxed against the others wishes usually behind their back. My Naturopath divorced his wife when she did this to their daughter

[Murihiku]

Originally Posted by Marnica

Agree with above poster. Although I will say that one person certainly CAN do something against the others wishes. happens all the time. One parents can take the kid to the MD and have them vaxed against the others wishes usually behind their back. My Naturopath divorced his wife when she did this to their daughter

Yes, I shouldn't have said "can't"; I should have said "can't ethically and morally do it." Vaxing or circumcizing behind the other parent's back is very wrong.

[ASusan]

Originally Posted by Murihiku

A spouse can't really do something to the child over the other spouse's wishes; the spouse that decides "no action" is usually the one that wins out.

Reading your last paragraph here, it occurs to me that you could tell him you are willing to do selective vaccination. When he says "which ones?" you could tell him you'll take his suggestions on board. That way, he is more likely to research with an open mind, and he may even change his mind if he's researching with the attitude that you are willing to compromise with him.

See, I DID do that this past August when we had a reasonable coversation about my concerns about vac and, to his credit, he did listen. At that time, we did come to an agreement. However, there is now some contention about what we actually agreed to:

I thought we agreed to
(1) vax selectively, delayed, and one-at-a-time
(2) researching each disease/vax as we went along
and
(3) as a starting point, we would start with the vaxes that we received as children. (meaning that we would begin our research with those diseases and vaxes)

However, DH claims that we agreed to
(1) start vaxing with the vaxes that we received as children.
and maybe
(2) research all the others after we did those initial vaxes.

SO, the fact that we haven't done ANY joint research 5 months later AND DS has no vaxes is evidence to DH that I am stalling just to get my way (defined as "never vax" by him).

And, with respect to what we received as children:

ME - I got MMR (late in childhood), DPT or some form, and polio. All those vaxes today are NOT the same vaxes, AND they are given at different times. AND, I think, the disease risk is different now than it was then, perhaps. The record of what I received is verifiable via my fairly-well-kept baby book and my RN-mother's fairly good memory.

DH - We don't know what he received. He grew up in a former British colony in the tropics. They were vaxed at school (according to his memory), and it just happened - no parental permission. AND, we know that his memory is falliable because recently in a conversation with an older cousin (who is an academic researcher in virology - lord help me!), DH recalled having Chicken Pox as a child and wasn't it awful and we wouldn't want DS subjected to that if we could protect him?...The cousin replied that it was highly unlikely that DH had Chicken Pox as a child because CP was not endemic in the country in which they grew up.

DH probably also had some vaxes for tropical diseases that aren't on the U.S. schduled, yet they are vaxes that we would have to consider if we were to travel to visit DH family.

Only do that if you are theoretically willing to compromise; otherwise it's a manipulative and dishonest strategy that may backfire.

No, I don' t think that it would be a manipulative and dishonest strategy, because I have already made that compromise. However, DH is perhaps viewing it as manipulative and dishonest, give our disagreement over what we agreed to last August and the lack of progress toward vax at this point.

I honestly believe that I am not 100% anti-vax. I am for a cautious, informed approach. I do believe that there are situations in which they may be helpful/necessary/good where the benefits outweigh the risks. Like the travel to visit DH's family. But, I would want to (us to) research it first, of course.

And how much of your conflict is about vaxes and how much is about the marriage in general?

Good luck!

The conflict is that we don't do conflict well. We suck at conflict management. I (and DH to a degree) am an avoider. Until something has to be brought out, and then things usually explode. It usually happens late at night, when I am exhausted; I don't discuss or argue well. I start to break down and cry and say things that I just don't really mean. And DH brings up old arguements and things that were said. And he thinks he's all logical, and yet when there are times that I'm the very logical one, he can't see it and becomes all clouded with emotion...

We can never discuss issues in isolation. Every single conflict brings up all the other sore spots and nothing ever gets accomplished. Just making a daycare drop-off-pick-up schedule last Sunday was a total drama that dragged so much other stuff into the discussion that just didn't need to be there. Ending up with me crying, a half-assed schedule...It's true, all these things ARE connected, but we're not going to solve all our problems in one sitting. And, it is clear to me that we have different memories of what actually occurrs.

(like DH having no memory of the weekend days he left me alone with DS this past fall so he could go into work. And me having no memory of DH picking up the slack around the house/DS care so I could get MY work done. I feel like I should keep a diary, but then I would be accused of "keeping score." When HE keeps score, it's because I've forced him to stoop to that level.)

[Marnica]

It really seems as if this issue is a manifestation of something deeper going on in your marraige. I really do feel for you and I wish the very best for you and your child. I hope you guys can not only work out this issue, but find a way to address the underlying issues in your marraige. : to you a thousand times!!!!

[ASusan]

Originally Posted by Murihiku

Yes, I shouldn't have said "can't"; I should have said "can't ethically and morally do it." Vaxing or circumcizing behind the other parent's back is very wrong.

What about taking a child to see a ND and administering homeopathic remedies? See, I had a thought about doing this just this morning, to address DS's allergy/eczema issues. I *know* it's unethical. DH would never agree to anything outside Western med. (it would be akin to making our child into a scientific experiment) But if I could take DS to an ND, cure his eczema....DH would see it just as DS growing out of it...he would never have to know. But, could I even do it? Could I get away with it? At what point would DS learn to talk and report on his experiences? What kind of distrust would that create in the marriage if/when DH found out...

Let me be clear that this was just a line of thinking/fantasy that ran through my head very briefly. It's not something that I'm actually considering. But when DS is suffering and scratching through the night, and I'm doing all this reading about healing the gut (mostly non-scientific, of course) and I'm burning bone broth to the inside of our new crock pot and my milk is drying up (because I took pulsatilla this past week for a stuffed up nose and it worked for the nose, but did it have an effect on my supply? more research to do...) and I'm not getting my PAID job completed because all this research is a huge time-suck, and DH and I aren't getting anywhere toward discussing and agreeing on how to approach vaccines, which are likely related to the allergy issue. Well, then sneaking DS to a homeopath begins to seem attractive.

And DH has had the same cold as me this past week. Why does pulsatilla work to dry up my nose and Tylenol-Cold-and-Sinus leave DH stuffed up with a sinus headache? Because we had different SYMPTOMS to the same cold, of course. Naah, can't be because a homeopathic remedy actually works.

[kiara7]

It clearly is complicated for you. But your ds is 15 mos. old with no vaxes - is that some evidence for you dh?

Anyway, it seems like he only wants to read what he agrees with (and the mainstream CDC, etc.) I don't know, but when we were in college we were always encouraged to read the opposing view in order to develop critical thinking, no?

It's hard to say what to do, if it were me, I would print, let's say, some of Blaylock's writings, may be just his analysis of what aluminum does to the body without Blaylock's name all over it and ask him what he thinks about it? Without acknowledging the sourse...

[ASusan]

Originally Posted by kiara7

It clearly is complicated for you. But your ds is 15 mos. old with no vaxes - is that some evidence for you dh?

Anyway, it seems like he only wants to read what he agrees with (and the mainstream CDC, etc.) I don't know, but when we were in college we were always encouraged to read the opposing view in order to develop critical thinking, no?

It's hard to say what to do, if it were me, I would print, let's say, some of Blaylock's writings, may be just his analysis of what aluminum does to the body without Blaylock's name all over it and ask him what he thinks about it? Without acknowledging the sourse...

Thanks. I've already done just that!! I have printed out Blaylocks' Vaccines, Neurodevelopment, and Autism Spectrum Disorders from his blog, skiming it as I did so. I removed the footer (with the link to blaylock's blog) and I whited out his name as author and re-copied the first page. I am sorry to be so sneaky, but I DO think there is some valuable analysis there. (although it doesn't help that the first few paragraphs are kind of ranty and conspiracy-theorist) I'd love to read parts of this aloud to DH and even want to have a genuine conversation with DH about it...but we end up in such an emotional state.

We can't read it tonight, as I have a huge class to prepare for tomorrow that I haven't prepared for before, and I'm SUPPOSED to be here working on it, and I'm CONSUMED with vaccines.


And the fact that he is 15 mos old and vaccine-free is a huge relief to me. He's had months of fairly normal brain development so far. He's that much ahead of the game when we do vax.

Do you think I could get DH to agree to look into a DAN doctor if DS does have a vax rxn? (But please note, it's not only or even autism I'm worried about - it's the whole spectrum of potential reactions to vaxing and the fact that we'd be doing it in the context of DS's allergies.)

[ASusan]

Blaylock is saying some interesting and compelling things. However, on p 2, he has two typos. This does not help his ultimate argument.

[Murihiku]

Originally Posted by ASusan

What about taking a child to see a ND and administering homeopathic remedies? See, I had a thought about doing this just this morning, to address DS's allergy/eczema issues. I *know* it's unethical. DH would never agree to anything outside Western med. (it would be akin to making our child into a scientific experiment) But if I could take DS to an ND, cure his eczema....DH would see it just as DS growing out of it...he would never have to know. But, could I even do it? Could I get away with it? At what point would DS learn to talk and report on his experiences? What kind of distrust would that create in the marriage if/when DH found out...

What would happen if you said to your husband "This is what I fantasized about doing. I feel so frustrated because I can't take action because of your veto. Is that how you feel about vaccinating our child?" (I know it's a different issue because you want to remedy a problem and he wants to prevent a possible problem, but the emotions may be the same.)

While it is wrong to take action over the other spouse's veto, it does leave the spouse who wants to take action feeling SO frustrated! When my husband and I have had this issue, it's always him putting the veto on, and saying "wait" and "think it through" and "do the research." I just want to GET IT DONE. Now in our case it's about relatively minor things such as when to get furniture, or pictures for the walls or something (although lately it's about advertizing for child care), and in your case it's about something much more serious, your child's health. So where I usually take the approach "I'd rather be happy than right," and just give in (and get what I want eventually, just not right away), that approach doesn't necessarily work for you, or for him.

What you say about the conflict avoidance problem really hits home for me too--our marriage is just like that!

And of course if you say "Let's put the vax issue aside for a while and work on our conflict/compromise problems first," he will see that as you continuing to "get your way" over the delayed vaccinations!

Isn't marriage so hard?? I don't have much to offer on the issue of vaccinating specifically, but you have my total sympathy as you attempt to navigate the thorny thickets of decision-making with your DH!

[xmasbaby7]

I was a severe allergy sufferer as a child myself and did my research through that filter, "Will vaccines aggravate a genetically predisposed disposition to allergies, eczema, and asthma?"

There are a few studies that show unvaccinated children experience these less.

The fact that your ds has so many allergies already makes me think that any aluminum in his system will make things seriously worse. His food allergies will likely increase to new things. I would be sure that you two discuss a list of all known allergens and all acceptable foods, put it in writing, and have it to compare a month after a first vaccination. Perhaps you could agree that if one shot increases his allergies that you could stop and do no more.

Sorry this is soooo tough!

[grandmaofthree]

I think you should each pick one book and BOTH read and discuss those two books as though you were in a book club about them. Your marriage will fail if you can't at least meet in the middle and be open to both sides of the debate, at least for the sake of open discussion.

What I see here is a situation where YOU have made up your mind and aren't willing to be open-minded when talking to him. Who is the one losing their temper first, you or him?