Butt Dimples (aka mid line issues - spun off from tongue-tie thread)

[menomena]

I was just reading through the tongue-tie thread for the first time and saw a thing about kids with mid-line issues, butt dimples, the need for extra b vitamins, etc.

Lily has a butt dimple (excuse me, "sacral pit"), super deep with a "nubby". we call it her tail. her cleave is super deep, too. at any rate, it's deep enough that she was sent for an xray at 4m to check for tethering of her spin and spina bifida, etc.

she has outrageous allergies. connection?

Aev has a pit, not nearly as deep but definitely there. Her cleave is very definite with a red line, but not nearly as deep/sharply defined as Lily's. Aev definitely reacts to legumes through my BM, but I don't know if that is her issue or mine. She's never been exposed to dairy, wheat, corn, nuts, PB or soy directly so I don't know how she fares on her own on those.

[changingseasons]

Well, DD has super super duper allergies, and no butt dimple. What is the cleave?

[AquariusHome]

Ellie has the butt dimple, but so do I. We both have issues with food allergies/ intolerances.

What exactly is a midline issue? I wanted to ask when it came up before but there were too many other things to ask and it got pushed aside. And yes, what is a cleave?

[Chinese Pistache]

Yep, my 2 allergy kids have it, but not my 2 non-allergic ones. DD (the more allergic so far) has a deeper indention and line. Ds's is more shallow. I think my nutrient stores were better w/ his pregnancy, but obviously not enough.

[AquariusHome]

So is the cleave the butt crack ? Ellie's is a definite red line that frequently cracks open. Poor baby. This issue has never come up in polite conversation before but it has been a strange Elli-ism for awhile now. Is this allergy related too?

[Chinese Pistache]

Mid-line defects include tongue tie, spina bifida, "sacral pits". Basically anything along the mid-line of the body (I'm sure Panserborne and others can chime in with a much better descriptions).

Cleave would be the nice way of saying butt crack

I would love to see the medical researchers focusing on this! It seems like so many of us are dealing with mid-line/allergy kids.

[lil_miss_understood]

Huh. Now I want to check ds1's butt but I know he'll look at me like I've grown 2 heads if I'm like, "Hey sweetie, show me your bum."

[AquariusHome]

I know there is some connection between sacral pits and genetic abnormalities too. That is one of the "markers" the geneticist used to justify genetic testing on Ellie.

[menomena]

Originally Posted by LaurieG

I know there is some connection between sacral pits and genetic abnormalities too. That is one of the "markers" the geneticist used to justify genetic testing on Ellie.

interesting!

FWIW, lily's u/s for her deep sacral pit also showed a kidney abnormality - one of them is 2 standard deviations smaller than the other. we were referred to a peds urologist but when we saw him he was basically like "she's a year old and has no hx of bladder infections, etc... no biggie. see ya in a year." and then we moved and didn't follow up around here.

i wonder if her having a compromised kidney function could factor into the allergy thing.

[menomena]

Originally Posted by JacquelineR

Huh. Now I want to check ds1's butt but I know he'll look at me like I've grown 2 heads if I'm like, "Hey sweetie, show me your bum."

"c'mon! i really need to tell my friends inside the computer all about your cutie patootie." :

[lil_miss_understood]

Originally Posted by menomena

"c'mon! i really need to tell my friends inside the computer all about your cutie patootie." :

The sad thing is, he has a birth mark on one butt cheek, so I ask him to look at his bum again every once in a while (because I forget what side it's on and keep losing the card it's wrote on). He always gives me a funny look when I ask though.

[changingseasons]

You guys are killing me.

So what's the deal with the crack? A deep one is associated with structural issues and allergies? I don't remember anything noteworthy about DD's crack, but I will have to take a look when she wakes up.

[Chinese Pistache]

Originally Posted by changingseasons

You guys are killing me.

So what's the deal with the crack? A deep one is associated with structural issues and allergies? I don't remember anything noteworthy about DD's crack, but I will have to take a look when she wakes up.

I'm not sure if anyone (well, anyone "mainstream") has made an association between allergies and vitamin B deficiency, but vit b deficiency IS related to all of these midline defects (spina bifida, neural tube defects, and lesser sacral pits, tongue tie, etc.). And since lots of allergy babies have one or more of the issues, there is probably some connection. I know that Panserborne discussed how the tongue issues mess up digestion or are indicative of digestive abnormalities (I hope she comes to clarify) that can cause food allergies.

[AquariusHome]

Originally Posted by menomena

interesting!

FWIW, lily's u/s for her deep sacral pit also showed a kidney abnormality - one of them is 2 standard deviations smaller than the other. we were referred to a peds urologist but when we saw him he was basically like "she's a year old and has no hx of bladder infections, etc... no biggie. see ya in a year." and then we moved and didn't follow up around here.

i wonder if her having a compromised kidney function could factor into the allergy thing.

I don't know about the compromised kidney function link to allergies but it makes sense - if the Kidney isn't filtering adequately....

Ellie has bilateral congenital kidney defects, too - neither one is the "typical" kidney issues that go along with Turner Syndrome. FWIW, her Urologist has said that despite the fact that 1 kidney is not functioning at all her other one is able to take up the load entirely. Not sure if I believe that there is not even mild compromised kidney function - from what I understand kidney function issues don't show up on blood work until they are fairly severe so I'm not sure how they have made this determination. But it is interesting anyhow that 1 kidney can effectively do the job for 2.

[tanyalynn]

Let me add a few things I remember as related, to get as much as possible in one thread--this is such a fascinating topic... (and obviously correct me if I've gone wrong somewhere)... to me, it looks like there's a combination of genetic tendencies (which ones our kids (or us) actually get) and severity of the nutritional deficiencies (how many affect each kid, or us as adults)...

--anterior tongue ties--possibly causing speech problems, dental issues due to tongue moving weird, can be hard to eat some foods, babies can have nursing/sucking problems, kiddo may have v-shape in bottom teeth (pointing at tongue tie, also indicative of jaw being too small, nutrition issue)

--posterior tongue ties--often co-exist with high palates, may impair peristalsis and affect overall digestion, I think can cause nursing/sucking problems, high palates may cause sleep apnea type problems in adults

--hypospadias (urethral opening in boys isn't at the end of the penis)

--tight anal sphincter (also affecting digestion by keeping food in digestive tract too long, tends to throw off bacterial balance)

--something to do with reflux, a muscle? at the top of the stomach

I think cleft lips and cleft palates are also midline issues.


I've never been completely clear on this--how, exactly, is a posterior tongue tie identified? Can we assume that all kids with high palates have posterior tongue ties?

For anterior ties (and really, I know I'll need corrections and additions)--when babies/adults stick out their tongues, their tongues should be pointy, not flat or heart-shaped at the tip; the tongue should be able to move back-and-forth (how much?); when baby cries, I _think_ the tongue is supposed to go up toward (all the way to?) the top of the mouth making a cup shape.

I want to add the link to the Coryllos article on tongue ties as well, since it's good and it's good to have it multiple places (professional description of tongue ties on the AAP site with instructions for doctors on how to cut the tongue tie).
http://www.aap.org/breastfeeding/8-27%20Newsletter.pdf

[meg-momto2]

DD and i both have a dimple. we both have allergies/intolerance issues. when DD was 2-3 months old that dimple turned into a pilonidal cyst and i was in the worst pain of my life for almost a week. thank goodness for my naturopath or i would have ended up with surgery, packing and draining for weeks. i haven't checked DS but i'm going to look next time he's in the shower. i wonder if i should have DD looked at for tongue tie issues.

[tanyalynn]

Originally Posted by Chinese Pistache

I'm not sure if anyone (well, anyone "mainstream") has made an association between allergies and vitamin B deficiency, but vit b deficiency IS related to all of these midline defects (spina bifida, neural tube defects, and lesser sacral pits, tongue tie, etc.). And since lots of allergy babies have one or more of the issues, there is probably some connection. I know that Panserborne discussed how the tongue issues mess up digestion or are indicative of digestive abnormalities (I hope she comes to clarify) that can cause food allergies.

I remember her saying folic acid and vitamin A, are there other B vitamins involved as well? And I thought in another thread you thought folic acid was an issue for you--how did you decide between folic acid and A, or both? I have defaulted to A only (as a biggie for us) but I don't have a good reason for it.

[lil_miss_understood]

Originally Posted by TanyaLopez

For anterior ties (and really, I know I'll need corrections and additions)--when babies/adults stick out their tongues, their tongues should be pointy, not flat or heart-shaped at the tip; the tongue should be able to move back-and-forth (how much?); when baby cries, I _think_ the tongue is supposed to go up toward (all the way to?) the top of the mouth making a cup shape.

Hmm. DS2's tongue is rounded, not pointy, but maybe it's just how he sticks his tongue out? He opens his mouth all the way and then tries to stick it out.

[tanyalynn]

Originally Posted by JacquelineR

Hmm. DS2's tongue is rounded, not pointy, but maybe it's just how he sticks his tongue out? He opens his mouth all the way and then tries to stick it out.

I was shocked at how spear-like my husband's and daughter's tongues are, but my range of comparison points is tiny. Just noticed something else--when I stick my tongue out, it curves down, I can't stick it _straight_ out (or rather, when I try, it's really awkward and short and a bit heart-shaped).

[kortner]

Okay, count us in. Well, DS, not me. I actually mentioned it (the butt dimple) to a craniosacral therapist when he was 5 m. old and she said she thought it was like spina bifida, only it 'didn't go there'. And she said she has it too (the therapist!). Another mom was there (this was free CST for a class), and she said her baby had the same thing and they called it his "poop catch". It does take some extra wiping! His is way above his anus, kinda above his crack, a BIG indentation right where his tailbone is (I think). Maybe I need to go read the tongue tie thread?! I've looked and he doesn't seem to have a tie, can stick it out a little and it's not heart shaped. Hmmm.

Oh, and about the midline stuff... I've noticed that he really uses his hands separately out to the side of his body. Granted, his arms are very short. Still, I'm wondering when midline skills (like grasping with both hands together) develop? I got a lot of Waldorf teacher training and they do lots of midline encouragement, like knitting, or hand games where your arms are crossing from one side of your body to the other. Thoughts?