New randomized "safety" study of thimerosal - Page 6

[applejuice]

You are correct. Absolutely.

That is why my decisions for my life are to make the decision that I can live with, not the doctor, nurse or anyone else. ME, just me. Because I will, that is why.

[Juvysen]

Originally Posted by Murihiku

This is a great point. Speaking for myself (and not by any means for all people who vax), the benefit of following the advice of one's doctor and government is that I don't have to have a view on vaccination or need to know about the science that supports it. Instead, I trust others with specialized knowledge to know what they are about. If I decided not to vaccinate, then, yes, I would feel I had to know more about the science.

So, does that make me one of the "sheeple"? Well, let me revert to my favourite form of argument, the analogy, and to my favourite vaccination-analogy, driving.

I almost always obey the speed limit. I've never done any sort of research into the physics behind why it is what it is, I've just assumed that some physics kind of people did that. Once I had a student who wrote a persuasive essay for me arguing that the speed limit should be done away with. He had some good arguments too, I was surprised. I had never thought about it before.

So, does that mean I let other people make decisions about my children's safety for me? Yes. Every time I obey the speed limit, and every time I get on a bus with my child and stare out the window or read him a book instead of paying attention to the decisions the driver is making. I've never looked up the training or the test required to become a bus driver. I haven't a clue how the brakes on a bus work.

Since I think being a passenger is a moving vehicle is the most dangerous thing I put my child through (but maybe I am wrong and vaccinating him is actually more dangerous), I obviously live a lot by trusting others to do their jobs properly.* It would be very difficult to live the way I do if I did not.

On the other hand, I do co-sleep and that is not recommended by most of the "authorities," so I did do some research into that. "Do I contradict myself? Very well then, I contradict myself. I am large. I contain multitudes" (Walt Whitman.)

* But I did hear on the radio about a study that claimed that 80% of people were incompetent at their jobs. However, if that study had five people conducting it . . .

It seems to me that to make this analogy work it'd be more about the carseats. I mean, there's diseases out there, no doubt. And the kids will get diseases no question. The car seat just makes it a little safer, right? As the vaccines supposedly do. But as parents, many of us DO put a lot of thought into what car and what car seat we put our children into. The difference is that there *are* decent controlled studies about carseat safety, and the vaccine safety studies are less well performed, imo.

Am I missing the mark here? I mean, driving in a car is safe, but what you're trusting other DRIVERS to do is pay attention and avoid the road when not working optimally (which maybe they do, maybe they don't, but still). That's a better analogy to handwashing/sanitary practices and staying home when sick, I would think...

[Murihiku]

Originally Posted by claddaghmom

I'm taking responsibility for my life and for my baby's life. Part of that includes looking at all information without taking someone's word for it based on the number of letters after the name or how smart/cool/rich/important that person is in our government/media.

Thought I should add that I researched speed limits in our state due to our highway speed limits being lowered. What I found was that the city chose to lower the speed limit b/c we are losing federal funding due to our poor accident numbers.

The analogy itself isn't really comparable to vaccinations. The science and physics behind car crashes is much simpler. Figure out the metal/plastic on your car. Figure out at what speed/force it disintegrates. Voila.

That's impressive about researching speed limits. When I made my analogy I never thought anyone would have actually done that!

What about, with car crashes, factoring in how likely you are to have a crash in the first place? Wouldn't you have to consider number of cars on the road, surface of the road, your brakes, and other things I can't even think of? I wonder how a speed limit is decided upon? Obviously, slower is safer, but safety would also have to be balanced with people's desire for convenience (a shorter commute). That balance might be analagous to the usefulness of vaccines in keeping working parents at work.

I take the point that if your child was hurt in a car accident you would receive help whereas if your child was hurt by a vaccine you wouldn't--definitely the analogy doesn't work there.

[Murihiku]

Originally Posted by Juvysen

It seems to me that to make this analogy work it'd be more about the carseats. I mean, there's diseases out there, no doubt. And the kids will get diseases no question. The car seat just makes it a little safer, right? As the vaccines supposedly do. But as parents, many of us DO put a lot of thought into what car and what car seat we put our children into. The difference is that there *are* decent controlled studies about carseat safety, and the vaccine safety studies are less well performed, imo.

Great point! Maybe the analogy will continue to work if we compare parents who research car seats to parents who delay and selectively vax--they still drive/vaccinate, but as safely as possible.

Or maybe it's time to just abandon the analogy. What I'm trying to say is that there is a benefit to vaccinating without research--and that's not having to do the research. I like reading all the ideas in this thread around this study about thimerosal, but I would rather research, say, the history of children and imagination than read that.

(There has been debate in the history of the West as to whether fostering imagination in children is harmful or beneficial to them. Most of us today just buy into the idea that it's the latter, of course, without researching that idea--whoops, I'm falling into analogy-territory again.)

[Super Glue Mommy]

there is way too big a risk attached to that benefit Muri. I would urge you, for all the time you spend posting here, really get into researching some of the articles posted from both sides. even if you end up choosing to vaccinate, let me just say that no matter what you choose, and what happens, in the event that something bad did happen you will feel much better having known you educated yourself. you can't say you didnt know you had a choice. you are here. now you know. if your child is damaged by a vaccine and THEN you research and find out "wow, obvously that was a bad idea" that is a lot different then researching and concluding vaccines are safe and then after a bad reaction being able to say "but I really thought, and still do think, the disease was the bigger risk then the vaccine". When it comes to safety I do research things. I looked into when to start solids. some drs say start at 4 months!!! yikes! and parents blindly follow that advice! some drs push formula feeding, c-sections, etc. some parents think all car seats are created equal. If you know education is an option, IMO its definitely an option to choose.

[runes]

Some of us really like doing the research...

[kiara7]

Also, wouldn't it be true to say that most doctors do not research/read anything that isn't signed and delivered by AAP and CDC? One can't really say that they do all of their research either. There are two sides to this coin.

[Super Glue Mommy]

yes kiara - and thats if they even educate after they graduate...

[Murihiku]

Originally Posted by Super Glue Mommy

there is way too big a risk attached to that benefit Muri. I would urge you, for all the time you spend posting here, really get into researching some of the articles posted from both sides. even if you end up choosing to vaccinate, let me just say that no matter what you choose, and what happens, in the event that something bad did happen you will feel much better having known you educated yourself. you can't say you didnt know you had a choice. you are here. now you know. if your child is damaged by a vaccine and THEN you research and find out "wow, obvously that was a bad idea" that is a lot different then researching and concluding vaccines are safe and then after a bad reaction being able to say "but I really thought, and still do think, the disease was the bigger risk then the vaccine". When it comes to safety I do research things. I looked into when to start solids. some drs say start at 4 months!!! yikes! and parents blindly follow that advice! some drs push formula feeding, c-sections, etc. some parents think all car seats are created equal. If you know education is an option, IMO its definitely an option to choose.

I hear you, and while you are right, do you also think I need to research everything connected with driving?

Anyway, you are also right that I spend too much time here indulging myself in interesting ideas instead of devoting that time to shaping my actions. I'm back to work today, so I'm going to post less often. Actually part of my work (at the moment) involves reading sociological books about risk, and while I'm supposed to apply the theories of risk to something else entirely, I keep thinking about vaccination whenever I read them! But I am going to resist the temptation to post about them.

I don't promise to never be back, but I want to say a big thank you to everyone for opening my mind, stimulating my ideas, and putting up with my tangential arguments. I can promise you one thing: if I ever hear someone dismissing non-vaxers, I will be able to tell them: "No, it's not just about fear of autism, it's not at all about benefitting from herd immunity, it's not just about their own children, and it's certainly not at all about people who don't educate themselves about vaccines!"

[Super Glue Mommy]

no, but you do research some things connected with driving right? I mean, you passed your written test? most people will look into what kind of car they are buying for safety ratings...

i had a dr tell me I couldnt have gallstones because I was 14, thin, and healthy. my mom pressed him to do a scan, and I did. 2 days later I fainted and had my gallbladder removed in the emergency room.

Ive heard of dr's telling parents to start cereal and 2 or 4 months.

there are "professionals" who claim spanking is safe.

There are religious leaders who steal from congregations. or cults that lead to mass suicides? what causes this? blind faith that someone knows better then you do.

and its not just about you. its about your child too. I think when it comes to injecting something into your child it would only make sense to research it for yourself, and not just do it because another professional "said so"

but thats just my thinking. most people live their lives the way you do Muri (I used to, before I knew what you know now) I dont think its necessarily bad I just dont understand how one could know there is a possible problem and not think twice and double check before injecting. In your analogy, if there was something on the news that said "there is now reason to believe some traffic lights in the area arent working properly, causing many accidents" would you ignore that, and just drive around buzzing through green lights as normal, or would you be a little more cautious?

[ema-adama]

Originally Posted by Murihiku

(There has been debate in the history of the West as to whether fostering imagination in children is harmful or beneficial to them. Most of us today just buy into the idea that it's the latter, of course, without researching that idea--whoops, I'm falling into analogy-territory again.)

I'm just popping in about imagination, as it is a subject near and dear to my heart. I am only now looking into it all a bit more closely, but there is evidence that imaginative play is essential in the development of executive function. This is truely facinating stuff and I am sure there will be much more research being done in the years to come.

About the driving vaccination analogy I am trying to figure out just what driving and vaccinations have in common. In your analogy the element of risk is what brings them together.

I am really tired and my brain is not working, but if I do not vaccinate, does that make me the equivilant of someone who does not rely on transport other than by foot in an area where there are no other forms of transport that could potentially nock me down? Ie I have cut out all risk of being injured by a means of transportation?

This doesn't make sense to me... I think the car seat analogy makes more sense. Disease is part of life. Driving is part of life. Some people believe vaccinations are like car seats/seat belts that make you safer in your journey through life. Other people see vaccines as accidents waiting to happen. I haven't yet seen the evidence that vaccines make you safer.... (see the seat belt vaccine comparison thread - it gets hilarious)

[claddaghmom]

Originally Posted by ema-adama

I'm just popping in about imagination, as it is a subject near and dear to my heart. I am only now looking into it all a bit more closely, but there is evidence that imaginative play is essential in the development of executive function. This is truely facinating stuff and I am sure there will be much more research being done in the years to come.

About the driving vaccination analogy I am trying to figure out just what driving and vaccinations have in common. In your analogy the element of risk is what brings them together.

I am really tired and my brain is not working, but if I do not vaccinate, does that make me the equivilant of someone who does not rely on transport other than by foot in an area where there are no other forms of transport that could potentially nock me down? Ie I have cut out all risk of being injured by a means of transportation?

This doesn't make sense to me... I think the car seat analogy makes more sense. Disease is part of life. Driving is part of life. Some people believe vaccinations are like car seats/seat belts that make you safer in your journey through life. Other people see vaccines as accidents waiting to happen. I haven't yet seen the evidence that vaccines make you safer.... (see the seat belt vaccine comparison thread - it gets hilarious)

It's weird that carseats were brought up in this thread, because I've used that analogy for vaccines before.

[aniT]

I don't see what carseats and vaccines have to do with each other.

A vaccine shoots toxins into your body that can have life long effects. We really don't know the long term effects of these toxins because they have never been studied. Now this is supposed to "protect" you should you come in contact with a disease. It may, it may not. Regardless you still have toxins floating around your body.

While riding in a car with a car seat will protect you IF you are in an accident. It too is a just in case measure, however the car seat does not have long term effects on your health and it does not put toxins into your body which have unknown effects and remain for an unknown amount of time.

[Deborah]

How the car seat analogy really works:

It is framing. It is an attempt to get parents to see vaccines as equivalent to car seats. Legally required, obviously carefully designed and safe, much better than doing without, etc.

But car seats are not equivalent to vaccines. Vaccines are not legally required, they are not carefully designed, nor are they safe.

Finally, car crashes are definitely hazardous. Childhood illnesses may be hazardous or may not be hazardous.

[ema-adama]

Originally Posted by Deborah

How the car seat analogy really works:

It is framing. It is an attempt to get parents to see vaccines as equivalent to car seats. Legally required, obviously carefully designed and safe, much better than doing without, etc.

But car seats are not equivalent to vaccines. Vaccines are not legally required, they are not carefully designed, nor are they safe.

Finally, car crashes are definitely hazardous. Childhood illnesses may be hazardous or may not be hazardous.

Thank you. The role vaccines have in keeping us safe is the crux of the quesitons for me. Some people think they do keep us safe and some people do not.

ETA: that people put forward this analogy that carseats and vaccinations are the same thing when it comes to keeping you safe, exposese their lack of knowledge on the issues, IMO... as has been repeatedly shown by just *how* different they are.