Can you help me with some biblical arguments? - Page 2

[DahliaRW]

ITA (as someone who believes in submission) that he is being abusive and IS NOT following the role of a husband in the Bible.

Also, the phrase "spare the rod spoil the child" in that form DOES NOT appear in the Bible. It was originally in a book about spouses punishing each other with spanking. Yuck! http://aolff.com/ has some good articles about not spanking.

[Teenytoona]

Originally Posted by Theoretica

People who use religion as a means to maintain control of others are sick and abusive.

Jesus taught to love, not to control and hurt.

, Momma, I hope you find the help you need. The others here have advised well.

[lilyka]

Hold the phone. he hit you. gave you a black eye. this goes way beyond biblical submisison. this is abuse cloaked in religous justification. you need to get somewhere safe. what you do after that is up to you but you need to be out of the abuse so you can be safe, keep your babies safe and clear your head (this may take a while. take all the time you need) and then decide what action you will take and under what conditions or if you will return to the marriage.

what he did is immoral and illegal.

[Kidzaplenty]

[Viola]

Looking at your posts from last year, it seemed clear you knew he was abusive. Did you have a change of heart at some point, start believing that the matter was you becoming a better wife.

I really hope you get away from him and get into a loving relationship that you deserve. There are people who would want to help you.

[kmeyrick]

Can I be frank? Your church has failed to act ethically. They are harming you. They are, by enabling him, hurting your husband. (He is supposed to improve his character, not pursue his faults). Your husband is abusing you, and I think you need to leave. You need to find another church. You don't deserve this AT ALL. Hugs to you.

[AngelBee]

YOU NEED TO GET OUT NOW!!!!



:

[AngelBee]

Originally Posted by kmeyrick

Can I be frank? Your church has failed to act ethically. They are harming you. They are, by enabling him, hurting your husband. (He is supposed to improve his character, not pursue his faults). Your husband is abusing you, and I think you need to leave. You need to find another church. You don't deserve this AT ALL. Hugs to you.

I can't believe he hit you and your church did nothing!

[chfriend]

You are in a dangerous situation that will only get more and more dangerous the longer you stay.

You don't have to decide that you are leaving in order to get help through a domestic violence program.

Start by calling anonymously and just talking to someone on the phone. I pray that you and your children will be kept safe.

[spero]

OP, you are being abused in almost every way possible - physically, spiritually, emotionally, psychologically. You NEED help getting out of there NOW. Your DH is enlisting the disgusting and lowly technique of using God's Holy Scripture to justify his abuse; and worse, he is backed by his church. I'm guessing you belong to a strict Fundamentalist denomination controlled solely by men.

If you have family that will help you, please ask them to get you out safely and IMMEDIATELY file for an order of protection against your "husband".

Originally Posted by Spoonerism

He believes that the bible gives him free reign to do whatever he wants.

That is a misogynistic lie. Period.

I have to ask permission before I do something as wild as going to the library. And many times I am not allowed to go for one reason or the other. All of this he justifies as the Bible saying that wives should submit fully to their husbands.

The "submission" passages in the Bible have been highly misinterpreted (by men, of course) throughout history. You can thank all the partial and mis-translation from Hebrew (OT) and Greek (NT). "Wifely submission" is NOT meant to be "lay down and be a doormat to your husband". The husband is instructed to submit, as well ... something that is often overlooked or deliberately downplayed. I don't think that the "ideal wife" exemplified in Proverbs 31 was "submitting" to any man - she was too busy rocking her career and running a tight ship!

When I am not 'subservient' enough I am called 'the dumbest woman that ever lived' and much, much worse.

Please tell me how this is honoring and cherishing you ... or did he not take those marriage vows, either? Would that be giving up too much control?

His family even gave me the book 'Created to be his Help Meet' by Debi Pearl. Garbage!

There's nothing I can say about the Pearls here that isn't a major UAV.

Secondly, 'The Rod'
I believe in gentle discipline. He believes 'spare the rod, spoil the child' Are there any arguments in the Bible that are anti-spanking?

As others have mentioned, the rod is another element of Scripture that has been mistranslated and misinterpreted for hundreds of years.

The passage speaks to parental guidance, not physical punishment. It was a comparison to shepherds, who do not hit their sheep. The shepherd's staff was meant to guide the sheep, not to physically discipline them. (As I've heard tell, sheep have very small brains and aren't considered to be terribly intelligent, so they literally need a lot of repetition & guidance.)

There is a passage in one of Solomon's writings (who, near the end of his life, wrote Ecclesiastes as a cautionary tale about the many regrets in his life) about not estranging your children with harsh discipline or something like that - but darned if I can find it right now.

Originally Posted by Spoonerism

I've given him the argument that the husband is supposed to love his wife as Christ loves the Church, and he argues back that if I were not so insolent and if I did things correctly and without attitude he would be able to love me that way.

That is a classic Fundamentalist, make-it-someone-else's-fault-it-can't-possible-be-mine-because-I-am-a-perfect-Christian argument.

We do attend church, but the church is part of the problem, IMO. His father is a deacon and I have gone to him in the past. He just asked what I did to provoke him Many members of the church know what is going on with us and they don't do anything or say anything to me. I think there are varying levels of abuse in many relationships in the church. Whether it be physical or verbal or emotional...it's there.

Yes, that is absolutely the ROOT of the problem right there. The whole thing smacks of Fundie cultism. You need to get away, and to stay away.

Originally Posted by Spoonerism

I do try to stop myself from being insolent and angry. I pray about it daily. I feel the bitterness rising up in me and I try HARD to not be so angry and bitter.

You've been brainwashed. You have every right to feel this way and it isn't your fault that you do.

He will not talk to members of my family because he hates them all.

This makes your family the perfect shelter, then. Please ask them to help you NOW!!!!

I work hard at trying to do everything correctly, to not upset him, but it's not working out.

This will never be possible according to his insane standards. Never. Do you really want to spend the rest of your life in constant fear and loathing, trying to live up to his idea of the perfect wife and never succeeding?

Originally Posted by Peppermint

I believe your husband can change, I really do, I pray he does.

With all due respect to my optimistic friend - while this MAY be possible, it will only happen if he is willing to admit that his particular brand of "faith" is abusive and wrong. In any case, the OP should not be forced to stick around while he's working that out. She still needs to leave, and ASAP.

Originally Posted by Theoretica

That belief system, while it may work for a few relationships, by far breeds a silent undercurrent of masochistic and abusive men who wave A BOOK to justify disrespecting. manipulating, and abusing their partners.

:

One of my biggest spiritual pet peeves is people who use/misuse/abuse Scripture to perpetuate evil, hatred, and misogyny. It really pisses me off.

[Kidzaplenty]

I can't leave the relationship so I am trying to do whatever I can to make it better. I work hard at trying to do everything correctly, to not upset him, but it's not working out.

Quite honestly, you will never be able to do everything correctly. If you desire for your marriage to "make it" then you have to do something. You can not sit back and "take it", trying to be a "good wife" so he will not harm you.

You are just enabling him as much as his church is.

And if you raise children in an abusive environment, you are teaching them that it is ok to be abused and an abuser. You are not only NOT showing love to yourself, you are not showing love to your children.

We are not to enable others to sin. You must do something to protect yourself and your children. If you choose to do nothing, then you are choosing to live in a sinful, abusive enabling relationship as well as place your children in a dangerous envirnment. This is just as wrong as him choosing to be an abuser.

But that is just MHO. I have a hard time sympathizing with someone that refuses to do something.

I don't mean to be harsh, just trying to get my point across as clearly as possible.

[gurumama]

Originally Posted by Kidzaplenty

:

? How is this supportive or helpful?

To the OP: I'm so sorry you're going through this. You've received some great advice from others on this thread, and I hope you can be free from his disrespect soon.

[Kidzaplenty]

Originally Posted by gurumama

? How is this supportive or helpful?

I do think it is helpful and supportive. Because if someone is just asking for sympathy but not wanting real help, all the kind words in the world are going to do nothing. But if they are truly asking for help, then they need to understand that their actions are important, and doing nothing IS an action.

I am all for supporting someone in need or in desperate situations, but I will not be an enabler.

The entire point of my previos post was "DO SOMETHING", don't just look for sympathy.

It may be hard, but do it anyways. All the other posters gave advice on what could be done, yet OP says:

I can't leave the relationship so I am trying to do whatever I can to make it better.

So, we are back to the choice. Do something or do nothing.

[Peppermint]

Originally Posted by spero

With all due respect to my optimistic friend - while this MAY be possible, it will only happen if he is willing to admit that his particular brand of "faith" is abusive and wrong. In any case, the OP should not be forced to stick around while he's working that out. She still needs to leave, and ASAP.

ITA! I never meant to imply that you should stay OP. I believe the only chance that your dh will change is if he leaves his "church" and completes counseling, preferably does some jail time, and truly changes in every way.

I know it can be hard for an abused person to be told that there is no hope for the abuser they love, but, OP, I do want you to know, of all of the abuse situations I have seen, only once have I seen the man stop abusing, and he did some jail time and counseling.

I hope you are able to seek refuge with your family, OP.

[D_McG]

Originally Posted by Kidzaplenty

I do think it is helpful and supportive. Because if someone is just asking for sympathy but not wanting real help, all the kind words in the world are going to do nothing. But if they are truly asking for help, then they need to understand that their actions are important, and doing nothing IS an action.

I am all for supporting someone in need or in desperate situations, but I will not be an enabler.

The entire point of my previos post was "DO SOMETHING", don't just look for sympathy.

It may be hard, but do it anyways. All the other posters gave advice on what could be done, yet OP says:
So, we are back to the choice. Do something or do nothing.

Your second post was fine. Your first post with the popcorn icon is what seems out of place.

[the_lissa]

kidzaplenty, she was talking about your popcorn post, which was a ridiculous thing to post.

Your second post where you actually told her to do something, I may not agree with, but was at least a response to the OP.

[Kidzaplenty]

Sorry about it seeming inappropriate. I was NAKing a cranky baby so I just saved my place quickly as I usually do until I got a free hand. Never meant anything by it.

[Kidzaplenty]

I have edited my post. I really am sorry I offended. That was never my intention.

Gurumama, I am sorry to you as well, as I took your post wrong (it was posted directly after one of my posts and just read it wrong). I am sorry.

I am also sorry to the OP, as well as anyone else, that I offended with my popcorn smilie. It is just a "standard lurking" smilie that I use to "placemark" my threads that I am coming back to, one that I can type quickly with only one hand while not looking at the keyboard. I did not mean for it to come across wrong. I will attempt to be more mindful in the future.

[KatWrangler]

please seek outside help.

[Callimom]

I agree with all the PPs.
Take your babies and go someplace safe.
No loving God would want this for you or your children.

Karen