Meningitis Fears

[stacey05]

I have researched and read till I am making myself confused! LOL I had decided not to vaccinate my youngest at all (he is 17 mos and very healthy and breastfed/no day care kid). My older 3 are vaccinated (no boosters), my 4th was vaccinated fully at 2 mos/4mos and then no more. I felt confident in my decision. UNTIL...I started hearing about hib meningitis and deaths in teens for meningitis. I can't figure out what strain the teens I have read about that died had. I think I read that a 7 yo got Hib...thought Hib was more in younger children?

I get confused with hib, the meningitis that prevnar protects against, the one for teens, etc. I have 17 mos., 7, 11, 14 and 16 yo's (homeschooled), but still go to kid/youth functions and now I am worried. I know about serotype replacement, but now it seems that some are still dying from the disease that vaccines are supposed to protect against....the ones I thought were pretty much eliminated? So, now I am nervous. I am thinking of getting my kids these vaccines...meningitis scares me and I don't think I understand it. The other vpd's I feel confident in how to treat and to let the immune system do it's job...it just seems that bacterial meningitis is another monster altogether. Help me! Am I being irrational (likely as I feel I am rambling and have been nervous since I googled "meningitis deaths" and so many in the last month came up...baby, child, teens, etc) I would love to know if the side effects of these vaccines are bad and also if I have been a victim of scare mongering...if so, it has worked. I mean, somebody's 7 month old baby did die of Hib and the parents were against vaccines...that is my worst nightmare. I was thinking we were low risk because homeschooled, breastfed, etc., but now I am not so sure. Anybody with any words of wisdom for me? I feel better when I hear from all you knowledgeable, confident in your decisions mommas!! Thanks.

Stacey

[BarnMomma]

I don't have any direct information for you but I do know what you are feeling. We don't vax DS whois 18 mo and I was FINE with this...until 4 days ago when the idea of tetanus gave me a scare. And then I read so much in 72 hours I feel like I"m going crazy and don't know which way is up.

I guess my advice is to trust your inital instinct. I'm sure others here will give you more concrete proof than that, but heck, after the last 4 days, my instincts are the only thing that I haven't been confused about.

[Gitti]

Dear Stacey,




Meningitis is a symptom and the cause can be ANY virus or bacteria. It is imo generally a cold or other infection that was left untreated and has gone too far.

College kids who get little sleep, a lot of stress, party all weekend, have lousy junk food diets, live in crowded and often very dirty places... I can see how they can come down with such an infection. (I would like to find out how many kids had a tonsillectomies which prevents the bacteria to travel to the brain.)

And yet, most people never get meningitis.

The child that died of hib it's sad, but how did the family live? What was their diet like? Was the child neglected? Abused? We don't know any of that.
And you simply go by the mainstream thinking that this child could have been saved by a vaccine. Yet you know NOTHING about that child or its living conditions including diet. Gosh they sure know how to rattle our chains. Don't they?

Don't feed into their fear mongering agenda. Think of how healthy your kids are and believe in their immune system. You don't know what long term damage you could cause with any vaccine. Why start messing with something that we were never even intended to worry about and to mess with.

Our bodies have all the natural juices to keep us healthy and if needed to heal us. We just have to give it that chance.

Of course their scare mongering works. They have the best PR team to create fear. Fear sells better than any other force. Shame on them for using it. But fear is a very poor decision making tool.


www.insidevaccines.com/wordpress - they have a lot on meningitis and all bacterial infections.

[Gitti]

I also wanted to say, we have 3 grandchildren ages 11, 5, and 3 and they will NOT receive ANY vaccines ever no matter what horrific news stories (real or fictitious) they use to browbeat us. Whether it be some skin eating disease, exotic bird flu virus, or whatever they come up with.

It will not affect our family's decision in the slightest.

[kalimay]

"The child that died of hib it's sad, but how did the family live? What was their diet like? Was the child neglected? Abused? We don't know any of that.
And you simply go by the mainstream thinking that this child could have been saved by a vaccine. Yet you know NOTHING about that child or its living conditions including diet. Gosh they sure know how to rattle our chains. Don't they."

I don't like the fear mongering either but Bacterial Meningitis is scary. We have friends who lost their almost 2 year old son and he was a healthy, loved child. He was not neglected or abused. I do not know his vaccine status but his family lives clean and has a healthy diet and I found your post offensive like you are taking the mongering to the opposite extreme.

[sbgrace]

Bad stuff happens. Bad stuff can happen no matter what great choices you make for your kids.

There are risks to not vaccinating. There are risks in vaccinating too. There are risks in not treating kids with ear infections with antibiotics (talk to me about it as my kid was one of the rare ones with mastoiditis as a complication...and that's how ear infections turn into meningitis). There are risks to using antibiotics. I will still use a 72 hour wait and see with antibiotics for ear infections in his brother. But I'm well aware there is risk to that.

There are risks to our kids being in this world. You have to weigh those risks and decide what you're comfortable with. We don't vax. But this is why I would never try to convince another parent not to vax. There is risk involved either way. And you as a parent have to make that choice for your children.

Remember that things like Hib are rare. And even if they occur they are not for sure a bad outcome. Most those kids recovered. One didn't. We can't make our kids at zero risk no matter what choices we make. A vaccinated kid can still end up with meninigitis--another strain, viral. I think, honestly, they are less likely to do so. But they can. And the vaccines aren't riskless either.

[Marnica]

The overall risk of your child getting mennegitis will not be less if you did get the HIB vax. It would just be less likely that the strain that causes it is HIB. Due to serotype replacement cases of mennegitis have not gone down. They are just caused by different viruses and strains of bacteria than are covered by the vax.
Risk is a part of life. Every time you get into a car with your child you are putting his/her life at risk along with your own. All you can do as the pp said is weigh the risks vs the benfits for your individual situation. No daycare, BFing, overall healthy sounds like fairly low risk to me

[sbgrace]

Originally Posted by Marnica

The overall risk of your child getting mennegitis will not be less if you did get the HIB vax. It would just be less likely that the strain that causes it is HIB. Due to serotype replacement cases of mennegitis have not gone down. They are just caused by different viruses and strains of bacteria than are covered by the vax.

Do you have a source for that--stats? I keep hearing that, I'd like to have information to back it up (we don't vax) but I can't find anything to support it.

[kiara7]

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...i?artid=344485

Phenotypes and genetic relatedness of invasive Haemophilus influenzae strains were evaluated from 1989 through 2001. Among 119 isolates, multidrug resistance decreased (from 50 to 0%), the level of H. influenzae serotype b (Hib) strains declined (from 81 to 16%), the level of noncapsulated strains rose (from 19 to 80%), and the first invasive H. influenzae serotype f strain was described

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/en...t=AbstractPlus

Though numbers of Hib infections in adults fell after the introduction of Hib vaccines for children (P = 0.035), and there was no increase in infections caused by other capsulated Hi serotypes, total numbers of invasive Hi infections increased due to a large rise in infections caused by non-capsulated Hi (ncHi) strains (P = 0.0067)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/en...indexed=google

In addition to the proportional increase in cases of non-type b Haemophilus influenzae disease in the post-H. influenzae type b vaccine era, the incidence of invasive H. influenzae disease was found to be approaching the rates of H. influenzae type b disease that were documented in the prevaccine period. Fifty-six percent of invasive disease now occurs in individuals aged >10 years.

[stacey05]

I thank you for your replies so far...please others reply too! I have a question about serotype replacement...such as the rise in other H. influenza strains...are these strains (a, f, etc.) as deadly as B? I just wonder if the vaccine is for the really bad ones and the others aren't as deadly? Sorry if this is a silly question. I read some more tonight about the protective benefit of breastfeeding (against Hib) and that helped ease my fears some. Also, I know (like others here mentioned) that life is full of risks. I just hate that!! LOL! I am sortof a control freak and I want guarantees...if I vaccinate they won't have a devastating reaction or if I don't vaccinate, there won't be devastating consequences. Anybody know how I can get guarantees? LOL Isn't it hard being a mom and loving so much...I love the quote..."becoming a mother is agreeing to forever let your heart walk around outside of your body"...I probably butchered that quote and I don't know who said it, but that is how I feel...so vulnerable, so unqualified for this daunting task of raising five beautiful children and trying to help keep them safe, healthy and help them become loving, productive members of society.

[newmum35]

I share your concern and know exactly where you are coming from. Mine is 15 mo. and has been selectively vaxed with DTaP series (all 3) and one other - the hib. He had it at 3 1/2 months and never completed the series (would have needed 2 more plus a booster). He is now over 15 months so IF I chose to vax him for hib he would need just one now, however I decided against it. I am still breastfeeding and I have read studies about the protective effect lasts for years. My primary reason however is the issue of serotype replacement as well as I get a general feeling like cases of hib meningitis happen most when pre-existing condition is also present.

One of the links kiara7 mentioned says this "Pre-existing diseases were noted in 220/350 cases and were associated with a higher case fatality rate" - I had also read the Swedish study in which risk factors for hib were: formula feeding, daycare, history of infections, and antibiotic use. I can't find the study right now but it was many pages long and I think I got to it from insidevaccines.com link. I printed it out but its downstairs right now, it might have the link on it if anyone wants me to double check sometime. My son has never had an infection or ever had antibiotics. (no daycare either and no formula)

I did save an interesting one however that you might want to read:

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...?artid=1116914

Of particular note is "The rise in diabetes, just one potential adverse effect, exceeds the benefit of the vaccine"

However - and maybe someone can help me with this cause Im still learning too - I am confused by the last sentence:

"Denials of safety issues may erode public confidence, especially since diabetes induced by the vaccine may be avoided by starting vaccination a few weeks earlier."

Uhh.. so they are saying if you vaccinate for hib EARLIER then the risk of diabetes is lower than if hib is given at a later date? Hmmm.... do I understand that right? So now that my son is 15 months (even though he'd need only one shot compared to 4 for a young baby) that means he would be MORE at risk for the diabetes (caused by the vax of course) than if he'd had the shot when younger?

I'm still not convinced he needs hib vaccine and I read the recent news reports which did give me pause - but the issue of serotype replacement seems really disturbing to me. I'm not sure they should be messing with the bacteria normally found in everyone

I do have a question myself however. Suppose a really healthy baby with no pre-existing condition comes into contact with someone who DOES have hib meningitis (this is contagious from what I read, correct?) - how likely is it the heathy baby would also come down with meningitis? Is it a high likelihood or low? I guess I get a little confused still about this as well. Why is this contagious if it is bacteria that is normally found in nearly everyone at some point?

[Proverbs31]

Originally Posted by newmum35

I do have a question myself however. Suppose a really healthy baby with no pre-existing condition comes into contact with someone who DOES have hib meningitis (this is contagious from what I read, correct?) - how likely is it the heathy baby would also come down with meningitis? Is it a high likelihood or low? I guess I get a little confused still about this as well. Why is this contagious if it is bacteria that is normally found in nearly everyone at some point?

Pre-vaccine, HiB (along with many other strains of bacteria) was just a normal part of the body's bacterial flora; pretty much everyone carried the bacteria in their nose and throat and developed protective antibodies against invasive infection. If one is carrying the bacteria at a time when their immune system is weakened (whether from a recent illness, poor nutrition or socio-economic status) the bacteria can leave the nose/throat and travel into the bloodstream, where it can become invasive and result in HiB disease. So in a nutshell, HiB meningitis isn't contagious in the sense that an infected person can give meningitis to someone else.

[jenrogs]

I am in MN, where these 5 cases and the infant death have been reported. I have read myself into confusion as well, although I am starting to feel like for my 4 year old daughter and nearly 2 year old son, the risks of getting hib meningitis are still low (even though we are in the state that the cdc is putting the freak out about), but also the risks of the vaccine seem low as well. That is, I do not believe they would suffer a short term reaction. It is the long term that gives me pause... cancer, diabetes, compromised immune system. Those are things that really nobody is sure about, because the super vaxed generations are not hitting old age yet. Still, I am considering this vaccine as well as Prevnar because I am scared of meningitis. But then, we didn't have these vaccines and did not hear of this happening all the time. It's in my state... 5 isn't a lot, but still. Many years there are 0. This seems to be an effective vaccine, but I've made it this far and my breastfed kids are almost at an age where they are not at a big risk of complications from any of these things. I think it is mostly babies under 1 who get meningitis from this, and after 2 the risk goes down a lot. Still, I'm scared, and confused. Like you I wish it was easy. Sometimes I wish I was someone who just listened to the doctors and the CDC because ignorance is bliss... just to believe my child was protected and healthy would be a great feeling.

I do know that my children have colds right now and that we will be traveling both tomorrow and in a few weeks, so it's really not something I can do this month anyway. See? I'm just as messed up and rambling. You're not alone.

[newyorkone]

This story made me perk up as well.

5 versus 0. In terms of human lives, 5x more would make any loving parent pause and re-think things. And the trend data posted in another thread showing the decline of meningitis in the post vaccine era appears to be real and fairly convincing.

However, the benefit might prove to be short lived in the long run because of one big reason...the giant elephant in the room...vaccine induced serotype replacement.

Perhaps, these 5 cases, are just the beginning, the tip of the iceberg, of a new more virulent group of strains of the Haemophilus influenzae bacteria making inroads AS A RESULT of the vaccination program. That's the problem with trying to play god.

The possibilities are frightening if more virulent and drug resistant strains became more prevalent due to the elimination of the strains that kept them in check by a ubiquitous childhood vaccine. Trade one bad thing for something even worse. Not my idea of effective medicine.

[anewmama]

Originally Posted by newyorkone

Perhaps, these 5 cases, are just the beginning, the tip of the iceberg, of a new more virulent group of strains of the Haemophilus influenzae bacteria making inroads AS A RESULT of the vaccination program. That's the problem with trying to play god.

I believe they are suspecting that the cases are actually a symptom of the HiB vaccine shortage.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/pdf/wk/mm58e0123.pdf

[Scattershoot]

It's in my state... 5 isn't a lot, but still.

I am scared of meningitis

There were only 3 diagnosed with meningitis. Two of the 3 had been vaccinated on schedule. One needed one more shot according to the type of Hib vax being given, which doesn't give one a whole lot of faith in the first two shots. The other two unvaccinated did not have meningitis, which the articles confuse the reader about. Besides that, the CDC states the 3 had received no vaccinations but also states they were "mostly unimmunized or partially immunized." So the no vaccinations part is probably in regards to saying "no" to the Hib shots, which makes one wonder if other shots had been given recently. If so, what kind of effect might those have had on immune function.

If you go by the CDC info, twice as many children who had received vaccination for Hib got meningitis as the unvaccinated.

[anewmama]

Originally Posted by Scattershoot

Besides that, the CDC states the 3 had received no vaccinations but also states they were "mostly unimmunized or partially immunized." So the no vaccinations part is probably in regards to saying "no" to the Hib shots, which makes one wonder if other shots had been given recently. If so, what kind of effect might those have had on immune function.

If you go by the CDC info, twice as many children who had received vaccination for Hib got meningitis as the unvaccinated.

Scattershoot... where are you getting the CDC says mostly unimmunized or partially? THe MMWR states clearly that they were unimmunized.

[Scattershoot]

Originally Posted by anewmama

Scattershoot... where are you getting the CDC says mostly unimmunized or partially? THe MMWR states clearly that they were unimmunized.

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/...rs-parents.htm

click on Update on Increase in Hib cases : January 23

You have to be Microsoft Word compatible

Also, it states that surveillance has increased and no other clusters have been found.

[anewmama]

"The children affected were either mostly unimmunized or partially immunized"

So not getting your post. You think the unimmunized 3 had other vaccines, just not HiB?

I think you will just never know. Implying the three kids had other vaccines which is the cause of them being vulnerable to HiB is just conjecture.

[Marnica]

Originally Posted by sbgrace

Do you have a source for that--stats? I keep hearing that, I'd like to have information to back it up (we don't vax) but I can't find anything to support it.

Here are just a few:
http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/act...g1&cookieSet=1

http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/act.../498745&id=tb2

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/en...indexed=google

http://www.thelancet.com/journals/la...37725/abstract

“FINDINGS: We noted no reduction of AOM episodes in the pneumococcal vaccine group compared with controls (intention-to-treat analysis: rate ratio 1.25, 95% CI 0.99-1.57). Although nasopharyngeal carriage of pneumococci of serotypes included in the conjugate-vaccine was greatly reduced after pneumococcal vaccinations, immediate and complete replacement by non-vaccine pneumococcal serotypes took place.”

http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/EID/vol5no3/lipsitch.htm

Serotype replacement has not been detected since the introduction of Hib conjugate vaccines. Studies of H. influenzae carriage in 700 children in Finland (21) and 364 families in the United Kingdom (15,22) found no evidence of increased carriage of non-b H. influenzae as a result of vaccination. Although increases in invasive disease from other nasopharyngeal bacteria have been reported since Hib vaccination began (23,24), no evidence of a causal link to Hib vaccination has been observed.”

there are many references out there. Just google serotype replacement and you could read about it for days!