Help with my parents' biggest argument.

[becca_howell]

Since finding out we're having a boy, my parents have tried their darndest to get my husband and I to change our mind on the circumcision issue. They "seem" to have a valid argument, however I still don't buy it.

Daddy was in the Navy back in the 80s (part of DS's name is after the ship he was on when he met my mom). He has always told my mom stories about the limited water supply on ship, making bathing difficult. The men he knew on the ship who weren't circumcised suffered from constant infections and were plain and simply unclean. Eventually, they would be circumcised as adults, and suffer a LOT of pain post-op.

Seems like a "reasonable excuse" (if there really is such a thing), however I find several flaws with this being a basis for circumcision:

1. This was in the 1980s. As much as I hate to admit it, it was a quarter of a century ago (wow, now I feel old). Aren't there ways of making saltwater clean for drinking and cleaning now on ships?
2. I've been told that keeping an uncirc'd penis clean is no harder than keeping a woman's vagina clean. If so, wouldn't the women on said ship suffer similar problems, with no "out"? What did they do? (a question I am dying to ask but not willing to!)
3. So, it's either pain as an adult, or pain now "in case they are in a situation with limited water supply (i.e., military deployment) and cannot clean themselves propperly"? I just don't see the reasoning behind it! Pain is pain, whether it's pain you remember or pain before you can remember. I don't buy the whole "infant's don't feel as much pain". They can show me "study" after "study". I DON'T BUY IT!

I know I'm right on. How do I help them see things my way?

[SharonAnne]

I think you need to politely, but firmly, tell them that this is not up for discussion or vote. Were it me, it would likely sound something like this:

"Mom, Dad, I know that you have our son's best interest at heart, and I love you so much for that. We are so happy that our son has grandparents who want to be such an active part of his life. I understand your concerns regarding circumcision, but we have done a lot of research on this, ourselves. We have decided not to have it done, for a great variety of reasons. To address your specific concern, if ever, in the future, there came a time, when our son decides that he wants or needs to have it done, we would make no attempt to stop him, of course. It is his penis and he gets to decide what happens to it. If he has it done as an adult, at least we'll be sure he has adequate anesthesia for the procedure."

I might then say something again about how this is the best decision for "our family". Use "we" "our" and "us" as much as possible, so they know that this is a joint decision.

If they keep pushing, I'd say (and DID say, to my mother) "My family is not a democracy, and even if it were, you don't get a vote."

[FernG]

I agree w/ the PP about what to say to your parents.

About the arguments... 1) I would wonder how many of those men gave themselves infections by aggressively washing (Just like a women will increase her chances of getting a vaginal infections from aggressive washing). 2) How many of those men had damaged foreskins from poor medical advice, retraction, and "cleaning" from infancy.

[carriebft]

One must wonder how the Germans, Russians, and Japanese maintain a submarine fleet. If this tale were true, you would think the WWII and the cold war would not have lasted as long as they did with such death and destruction created by foreskins... we should have been easily capable of taking the south pacific, what with the Japanese spending all their time circumcising and recovering from surgery.

[liseux]

"One must wonder how the Germans, Russians, and Japanese maintain a submarine fleet." Carriebft, excellent answer!!!

[NaturalMindedMomma]

But if your son was an adult and MADE the decision for himeslf that would be OK! As an adult he would be put under general anesthesia and then given loads of pain meds.

He is a baby and most likely not going to be in a war anytime soon where he will be on a boat with limited water supply.

On the same note, Breast cancer is more prevalent than a water supply issue on a boat in a war, so should you cut off your baby girls breasts JIC?

HTH. Tell them it isn't up for discussion...

[IlluminatedAttic]

DSS is a Navy submariner. He went thru basic and A school with no issues or comments. Once chosen for submarine duty he had to go through a final medical intake. He called us very upset saying that the docs were trying to force him to be circumcised because he would have problems and need it in the long run anyway. Of course he refused and of course we fed him all the current research so that he would feel confident in his decision. He has been deployed on several cruises over the past years and has had no issues that we know of (and I'm quite certain he would tell us). I don't really know about such things, but I would assume that water rations on a sub are even tighter than on a regular ship. And really, how much water can it take anyway?

[latinalonestar]

That is quite silly! There are many rumors of these things happening but few of them are true. We have even proven that the whole sand in the foreskin is not true, does someone have that link?

Even in low water supply, intact men wouldn't be getting constant infections. Perhaps your dad heard of these things the same way rumors spread when you play the game telephone.

In the end, your son isn't going to war for a very long time. Despite popular belief that circ. is more traumatic on an adult, it is not. The only difference is that you don't remember as a baby. In fact adult circ is much less painful b/c adults can have the appropriate drugs to manage the pain. Infants don't get this b/c they are too small, not b/c it is any less painful.

One thing you must be cautious of...People will often try to talk you into cutting your child's genitals b/c of a need to justify the decision that they made with their children. If you don't cut your child and he grows up healthy, then they will have been proven wrong in their decision. This deep sense of insecurity is the motivation rather than a true concern for your child. This is also why pro-circers spread nasty rumors about a child that has horrible infections, was smelly, etc, etc. If they keep these rumors going then they don't have to face the grizzly truth that what they did was wrong.

[phatchristy]

Originally Posted by carriebft

One must wonder how the Germans, Russians, and Japanese maintain a submarine fleet. If this tale were true, you would think the WWII and the cold war would not have lasted as long as they did with such death and destruction created by foreskins... we should have been easily capable of taking the south pacific, what with the Japanese spending all their time circumcising and recovering from surgery.

:

Sounds like your dad doesn't know that pretty much every other country in the world doesn't circumcise. I think I remember reading the stats for circumcision in these countries is something like 1 in 17,000 performed for some medical reason.

[Pumpkinheadmommy]

I'm curious if your dad is just passing on third-hand rumors or if he actually knew men this happened to. If it was in the 80s, chances are 90% or more of his fellow sailors were circumcised, so it's unlikely he actually knew anyone that had problems.

My DH was a marine and spent time on ships with limited access to water and experienced no problems (this was in the late 90s). He did mention, though, that the Navy medical people did try to encourage him to get circumcised and he refused.

[jessjgh1]

My parents friends were very happy when they learned that we were going to keep our son intact. He later mentioned that when he was in the Navy he had the option to be circumcised and he said, heck no. He had no problems and just as you mentioned women would have a harder time of things.

BTW, men who are in low water situations can use another method to help keep clean till they can get to water--- hold the foreskin closed and allow a lttle pressure to build up and then pee.... the urine will help a little to clean anything.

In anycase, seems like a silly reason to circ at birth. Adults can get complete pain relief== newborns cannot. I don't buy it that adult circumcisiion is more traumatic at all.

Newborns are also not retractible and have to be forcibly retracted to then be cut.

Jessica

[glongley]

Here is an article on the sand myth:
http://www.historyofcircumcision.net...id=30&Itemid=0

Gillian

[Bm31]

I would just chalk this one up as some more mythology being used in a desperate attempt to produce another cut generation. :

[MommytoB]

What I learned that men who are intact end up bringing baby wipess /wet wipes to wipe themselves if they are in war far away .

It would do good for women far away she needs those wipes too if she can't wash her privates either .

Because women and men both need to wipe down there . If a women didn't wipe I bet she would get an yeast infection also.

Plus since we know how uneducated doctors are still now on a intact male imagine how much more worse they were back in the 80's at least we are now getting a few educated doctors!

[zinemama]

Don't even get into it. Tell them it's inappropriate (and downright weird) for them to be so focused on their grandchild's penis. And that the subject is totally closed for discussion.

[Dave2GA]

Former Naval officer from the 70's here. Absolutely no pressure to get circed. Plenty of H2O on three surface ships. On nuclear subs the water is limitless. It's only surface ships where its an issue and it is barely one there. Out of four years at sea I can't recall ever going more than 3 days without a shower. If someone tried to get a Navy man to get circed it was through ignorance or worse.

[tennisdude23]

You know if back in the 80s they knew how to launch intercontinental ballistic missiles from submarines, I think then that they knew how to ration water supplies adequately. Submariners are out on the seas for months, and I am pretty sure they have machines that turn the salt water into fresh water. So, there is always an adequate supply. In any case, back in WWI, when being a submariner was very dangerous, very few people complained of foreskin difficulties. In fact, I am pretty sure that this was the last thing on their minds. If indeed infections were such a problem then you would think that other countries with big submarine fleets would have started circumcision as a health preventive measure. But no none of them have, which proves that the theory in question here is absolutely ludicrous. I am guessing that your dad just overheard something ridiculous from someone else. I sort of doubt that he himself inspected in close detail his mates' penises to check for none-existent infections, which leads me to point out that even if men don't wash their chances of getting infections under the foreskin are minimal. It's only in the U.S. that people have come up with this idea that foreskin is disease infested tissue. It's not. Female genitals are much dirtier and more prone to infection, but nobody suggests that female soldiers should get parts of their genitals cut off for hygiene reasons. No, of course, not. That would be ridiculous. The same applies to boys.

[veganone]

It sounds like a scare tactic used by the Navy docs to talk men into being circ'd. I have no idea why they'd care, but the military confuses me on a lot of issues!

I agree that you should tell them that your child's penis is none of their business. It's not. It's not even your decision to make, IMO, it's your son's! If someday he wants to get it done, fine, but it's a horrible thing to force onto a baby.

As the parent, you don't have to justify your decisions to your parents. You really don't. Thank them for their input and then do whatever you want. You don't even need to counter your dad's arguments.

[In Exile]

That is BS, sorry to say.

Being from Europe with 2 sets of grandparents on both sides of WWII-they had other stuff to worry about. In no time did any military power there circ their troops because of rampant foreskin issues. That's nonsense. I can just see that. Napoleon, Hitler and Stalin ordered mass circs-trust me, circ and foreskin was not on anyone's radar.

That is another lame attempt of hearsay and myth. I would nod my head like I would with with silly Aunt Maddie of silly Uncle Bob, honestly. I would not even debate my child's genitals. I just say "aha" and don't even bother. That is just one of many things when you have to ignore people that want to "help" with BS like that.
It's strange when those happen to be your parents- but I do a lot differently and on some matters I just bite my tongue and don't even get into it. Sames me a lot of nerves and heartaches.

[perspective]

Originally Posted by liseux

"One must wonder how the Germans, Russians, and Japanese maintain a submarine fleet." Carriebft, excellent answer!!!

Not only that, think back to nature. Our body was designed through evolution, for the purpose of surviving in fairly rugged/wild places. Thousands of years ago humans ran around, and I doubt the men went to the local lake and made sure they cleaned under their foreskin with soap and water everyday.

If having a foreskin meant constant infections for males who did not have 21st century hygiene standards, then all the men that evolved to have the penis we know today would have died out.

Tell your parents that the penis evolved the way it did because it works. ESPECIALLY for situations where there is a small water supply. I bet those cut guys had penis heads with dirt and grime from the sub, while those intact guys had a protected head that was somewhat self cleaning.

I bet what happened is that the doctor on board told all the intact men that they better make sure to wash their penis very well with soap and water because it might get infected. And all those intact men did what the doc said, and that extra cleaning (destroying the natural cleaning function under the foreskin) caused all those infections that lead to those circumcisions.