OT - Well, it's about time! (x-posted in Green Living)

[Judegirl]

Hi all....

I don't post much anymore...but I pretty much "grew up" on MDC back in the day. Thought you guys might appreciate this:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/27/health/27brod.html?em

Apparently, even the experts are coming around to saying that dirt is generally better for us than bleach (etc.)...

Jude

[anewmama]

These studies, along with epidemiological observations, seem to explain why immune system disorders like multiple sclerosis, Type 1 diabetes, inflammatory bowel disease, asthma and allergies have risen significantly in the United States and other developed countries.

This does not bode well for those who want to blame the rise in all of these disease on vaccines. Wonder how this will play out ultimately.

[Gitti]

Originally Posted by Judegirl

Apparently, even the experts are coming around to saying that dirt is generally better for us than bleach (etc.)...

Jude

It always takes them a while. We have to keep repeating things for them slowly and often before it sinks in.

[ASusan]

I was nodding in agreement - same old, same old. Then I got to the part about the worms! THAT surprised and interested me.

Then, this --

"...We're not proposing a return to the germ-filled environment of the 1850s. But if we properly understand how organisms in the environment protect us, maybe we can give a vaccine or mimic their effects with some innocuous stimulus."

I yelped out loud and practically choked on my lunch.

[Gitti]

Originally Posted by anewmama

This does not bode well for those who want to blame the rise in all of these disease on vaccines. Wonder how this will play out ultimately.

Actually quite well.

The anti-vaccinationist want kids to experience the natural diseases which are an extension of dirt/germs in the environment and the body. The pro-vax folk say to keep that away from the body. Keep the body disease and germ/dirt free.

[anewmama]

Originally Posted by Gitti

Actually quite well.

The anti-vaccinationist want kids to experience the natural diseases which are an extension of dirt/germs in the environment and the body. The pro-vax folk say to keep that away from the body. Keep the body disease and germ/dirt free.

That doesn't answer it at all. Anti-vaccinationists want to blame the rise in all of these disease on on vaccines. But here is an alternative theory that points towards overly clean environments. Definitely detracts from the former's theory.

[k9sarchik]

Studies in Europe have found that people that live an Anthroposophic lifestyle, meaning that they do not vaccinate, support biodynamic agriculture, eat probiotic rich (fermented) foods, use minimal antibiotics, antipyretics, etc.
have less atopy then even children who live on farms.

Children who live on farms have less atopy then suburban/urban children.

It's a culmination of things. Vaccines add the chemical cocktails that can harm the immune system.

Essentially our digestive systems are the root of our health.

[lil_miss_understood]

Posting this link over in Allergies for those mamas to discuss.

[Marnica]

Originally Posted by anewmama

That doesn't answer it at all. Anti-vaccinationists want to blame the rise in all of these disease on on vaccines. But here is an alternative theory that points towards overly clean environments. Definitely detracts from the former's theory.

That is a gross generalization. I don't vaccinate and I don't blame the rise in ALL of these diseases on vaccines. I don't think that what antivaxers say at all. I think they acknowledge the contribution that vaccines play along with many other factors (such as what this article is suggesting).

[Jojo F.]

nak...

k9sarchik- exactly

if i remember this correctly, one treatment for autistic children and others with extremely compromised guts is eating dirt. of course it's not just any kind of dirt but a kind that has a high count of micro-organisms, etc.

[anewmama]

Originally Posted by Marnica

That is a gross generalization. I don't vaccinate and I don't blame the rise in ALL of these diseases on vaccines. I don't think that what antivaxers say at all. I think they acknowledge the contribution that vaccines play along with many other factors (such as what this article is suggesting).

Of course it is a generalization. But often, generalizations are what abounds in many discussions of vaccines from what I can tell (pro and con). I think only some antivaxers acknowledge the contribution. This site is full of those who won't; I read about it all the time. Hence my generalized response.

[Gitti]

Originally Posted by anewmama

Anti-vaccinationists want to blame the rise in all of these disease on on vaccines.

Well, actually they want to blame the rise of various diseases on the lack of exposure to dirt and germs. They say the immune system doesn't have a chance to build immunity and thus is weak, yes.
Exposure to dirt and germs teaches the body to deal with it.

Originally Posted by anewmama

But here is an alternative theory that points towards overly clean environments.

Right. Avoiding disease (which is dirty) at all costs. Which is crazy.


As you see from the article they are considering more vaccine to remedy the lack of what lives in the natural dirt such as germs and worms....

[lil_miss_understood]

Originally Posted by Gitti

As you see from the article they are considering more vaccine to remedy the lack of what lives in the natural dirt such as germs and worms....

Yeah, that's the part that seriously just made me :.
I mean, wth? What part of "kids aren't being exposed to enough dirt" makes a person go "I know! Let's make a dirt vaccine!" ?:

[runes]

Originally Posted by anewmama

This does not bode well for those who want to blame the rise in all of these disease on vaccines. Wonder how this will play out ultimately.

First of all, it's not that black and white. It is entirely possible, and very often the view of "antivaccinationists" that the rise in diseases such as diabetes, ibd, asthma and allergies etc. is multifactorial. It includes the air we breathe, the food and water we take in, the chemicals that we use to "clean" our homes, the way we birth and feed our babies, as well as the things that we inject into our children in the name of "preventing" disease.

Secondly, the article actually substantiates not contradicts the theory that our immune systems are best left untampered, and that exposure to things in our environment that we currently treat as pathogens might actually have a beneficial effect on our overall ability to fight both acute illnesses as well as chronic, autoimmune illnesses.

[Gitti]

Originally Posted by JacquelineR

I mean, wth? What part of "kids aren't being exposed to enough dirt" makes a person go "I know! Let's make a dirt vaccine!" ?:

they are playing with us.

First they want us to vaccinated to avoid being sickened by germs. Then they want us to inject dirt to get some germs into our system to challenge it.

Everything done through them. Nothing done by nature.

If we leave well enough alone, kids get enough dirt with enough germs to build up a healthy immune system and thus avoid most if not all the diseases they mentioned.



Dirt and germs are one and the same.

[Murihiku]

Originally Posted by Gitti

The anti-vaccinationist want kids to experience the natural diseases which are an extension of dirt/germs in the environment and the body. The pro-vax folk say to keep that away from the body. Keep the body disease and germ/dirt free.

And yet both the pro-vax Public Health campaigns and the anti-vax regulars here say "Avoid the flu--wash your hands." Public Health says "as well as getting the flu shot" and anti-vaxers say "insatead of getting the flu shot." There are some anti-handwashers at MDC, I recently discovered.

[Gitti]

Originally Posted by Murihiku

And yet both the pro-vax Public Health campaigns and the anti-vax regulars here say "Avoid the flu--wash your hands."

You have to realize that getting the flu does NOTHING for the immune system. You can get a flu over and over and over...because it mutates so quickly. So building immunity to ONE flu virus which you will never in your life time see again is a waste of time and effort.

Public Health says "as well as getting the flu shot" and anti-vaxers say "insatead of getting the flu shot."

Right. I do NOT want to get the flu if I can avoid it. I don't know whether washing hand will avoid it. I believe the only way to avoid it is to keep healthy.


And the vaccine is harmful.

[californiajenn]

Originally Posted by k9sarchik

Studies in Europe have found that people that live an Anthroposophic lifestyle, meaning that they do not vaccinate, support biodynamic agriculture, eat probiotic rich (fermented) foods, use minimal antibiotics, antipyretics, etc.
have less atopy then even children who live on farms.

Children who live on farms have less atopy then suburban/urban children.

Could you post the links to these studies please? I would love to pass them along.

[ASusan]

Originally Posted by Gitti

You have to realize that getting the flu does NOTHING for the immune system. You can get a flu over and over and over...because it mutates so quickly. So building immunity to ONE flu virus which you will never in your life time see again is a waste of time and effort.

bolding mine. I think your statement is not entirely true. While it is possible to get the flu over and over, being infected does potentially bring about some protection. The flu epidemic of 1918 killed primarily young adults. Older adults were spared, it was believed, because they had been previously exposed to a similar strain of flu in their younger years.

Feel free to correct me with more information, as this is what I have believed for a while with respect to the 1918 epidemic.

[k9sarchik]

californiajean~

Ok found some: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PARSIFAL_study

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...?artid=1855685