those who DO do some form of time-out, please come in - Page 2

[readytobedone]

Originally Posted by TwinsTwicePlusTwo

Personally, I believe there's no such thing as one parenting approach that works with every (or even most) children. I know I've had to adjust my techniques for each child. What Beth responded to didn't work for Cali, what Cali responded to didn't work for her twin, and so on. Time outs worked great for three of my six children. For Jesse and Davin, the separation and withdrawal of affection was traumatizing, and a more AP/GD approach is much better. I trust myself to be able to tell when my child is being hurt by my methods, and to adjust accordingly. I don't think there's anything wrong with what the OP did, since it seemed to have worked well for her child.

Of course, that's just my opinion, which is probably worth what you paid for it.

this is actually really helpful and kind of affirms what i've been thinking myself. i appreciate your saying that different things work with different kids. my hunch is my child (at least at this point in time) needs time-out. i guess this is probably not the place to post such a wild assertion, but there you have it

again, thanks for you kind words.

[readytobedone]

Originally Posted by annettemarie

It's not that I'm against the concept when it's used it a "Whoa, Nelly, you're a little out of control. Let's take a moment to collect ourselves, shall we?" kind of way. But a baby? They don't get it. It's not discipline, which means to teach, but punishment, which, IMHO, is not something you do to a baby or even a toddler.

i'm interested in this idea that they don't get it. how can someone just uniformly assert that a 20 month old doesn't understand time-out and thus it's a punishment? from what went on last night, it seemed she perfectly understood it. i really don't think she felt abandoned; i think she felt "hey! i'm not getting to come over and hit you anymore. my action has an actual consequence. this is new and strange."

[alegna]

What she gets is that it's a punishment.

She doesn't get how it's helping her.

-Angela

[mbravebird]

Originally Posted by LynnS6

While I'm sensitive to the "love withdrawal" argument, I'm also sensitive to the fact that walking away is probably less damaging to my kids than mom screaming like a maniac, or worse, mom hitting back because that's what my reflexes want to do.

I think this is a really important point, one that is not given enough airtime in most GD circles. GD is only possible if this aspect is dealt with. I see moms, over and over, trying so hard to do it right, and then losing it at the last minute. I have gone through many iterations of struggling with this as a mother. The "just do it" recommendation, as in "just redirect", "just be playful", "just remind yourself it's developmental" really doesn't give parents enough tools, imo.

The tools I would recommend are 1) EFT for the moments when you're backed in a corner and are on the edge of losing it, 2) making a plan ahead of time, which your child knows about, for you both to get a break from the hitting 3) making a plan for repairing breaks in the relationship, which will happen -- both you and your kids will make mistakes, act badly, and lose it sometimes. Meeting those times and coming back to center is a very useful tool to teach and learn. A great book for learning repair of relationship breaks is Parenting from the Inside Out.

I trust that you'll find your way through whether or not time-outs at this age are working for your dd. I do think she's a little young to get the logic you're using, and I wonder if the positive effect will wear off once she gets used to it. But I don't think it's wrong to experiment; I hear that you're at the end of your rope and feeling like this is better than the alternative, and wondering if it might actually be the solution. I suspect it's not the solution, but see that it's clearly important for you at this point to introduce some other options, and I see you exploring that. I say just keep gently exploring, taking into account lots of different sources of info and your daughter's reactions. You'll find a way through. And continue to respect your own needs and limits! That's very sensible, although sometimes not very easy.

Originally Posted by LynnS6

Instead it was a "you're welcome to join us when you've calmed down". For our ds especially, he needed to be physically separated from us to achieve that. He's easily overstimulated, and being near the 'source' of the problem kept him revved up. Alone, he'd storm for a bit, and then let us comfort him. With us, he'd keep going.

This is true of my son as well, and those are words that we've used. He's like me in this way! I know exactly how it feels, at least my version of it. It's so helpful to have a way out of a situation sometimes, and then revisit it afterwards. I'm still not clear on the best way to do this -- we're still finding our way through. But I do know that it's one of his legitimate needs, to get some space when he's upset. And he can't always do it. It's an interesting issue.

Good luck, mama! Hope you get some interesting food for thought on here.

[Theoretica]

Originally Posted by mysticmomma

The Five Steps are a technique developed by Lisa Kuzara-Seibold, Minister of Early Childhood Education at Word of Grace Church in Mesa, Arizona. I had the amazing opportunity to mentor under her while employed by the Department of Early Childhood Education as a Sunday School Teacher. This example of The Five Steps is an adaptation of what is taught in her training manual.

Step 1: State your request and offer a reason.

Example: “You need to stop yourself from playing and clean up. It is time to leave.”

Step 2: Restate your request.

Example: “You need to stop yourself from playing and clean up.”

It is helpful to get down on the child’s level and touch your child while looking in his eyes to make sure you have his attention.

Step 3: Offer help.

Example: “You are having a hard time stopping your play. Can you stop playing and clean up or do you need my help?”

Whether your child requests help or not respect their wishes. Help is not a punishment, it is help.

Step 4: Help.

Example: “You are not stopping your play. Here, let me help you.”

Again, help is not a punishment. It is an acknowledgment that your child is unable to stop on their own. This may be due to a lack of maturity, being tired or hungry, or simply not wanting to stop.

Step 5: The Bear Hug.

Stand behind your child and wrap your arms over her shoulders and across her chest. Hold her arms with your hands if you are concerned about her striking out. Squat down to her level and speak gently in her ear that you are helping her stop herself and that you will let her go when she can stop herself. Gentle pressure on her shoulders can keep her from kicking or attempting to run from you. This is not a punishment. It is providing outside boundaries for a child who lacks internal boundaries.

There are actually a few times when it’s appropriate.

First, it’s a great connecting tool when you’re not even using the other steps. Especially for children who love touch and contact. I often sweep into a room, scoop a child up into a bear hug, squeeze and cuddle and then move on. The thing about the positioning of the bear hug is that mom is non-threatening–behind, at child’s level, and able to speak calmly and quietly into child’s ear. The hug provides a sense of security to most children. I actually encourage doing this often so that when it’s done as the 5th step the child is comfortable with it and comforted BY it.

Second, it is a great tool for providing external boundaries when a child’s internal boundaries have broken down. Because the 4th step is *helping* that is where most interactions should end–parent helps child be successful and not cooperating is NOT an option. But if the child melts down or becomes violent then it’s important to keep them, yourself, and others safe and holding them not only does that but, with most children, helps them calm down. Because children push the boundaries when they don’t feel safe, providing kind and firm boundaries in a tangible way he’s them feel safe and calm down.

If a child is averse to the Bear Hug then I would only use it if the child was truly being violent and needed to be kept safe. In that case I’m not particularly concerned about them not liking it because safety comes first. Otherwise, if they are just *melting down* then I find a safe place for them to have their big feelings and I wait nearby.

During the Bear Hug I speak calmly into the child’s ears saying things that let them know I will release them as soon as they have their own self control, that I am bigger than their big feelings, that they are safe and I will keep them safe, that I hear them being very upset–reflecting, validating and affirming them while instructing them in what they need to do (get their self control back).

My bold.

I have to say I have a real problem with this. First of all, the OP is talking about a ONE YEAR OLD. Second...Why is help offered as 'step three'? Why not offer to help the first time? ESPECIALLY with a really young kiddo. Doing things 'side by side' is the best way for them to be independent later anyways. And the 'bear hug' idea is physical restraint, no matter how cuddly you make it out to be. It's worded very similarly to 'holding therapy', and it seems out of place entirely for use with an average child with normal levels of aggressive outbursts (not that it works for severely disturbed children either, but it is uses). How is an adult using their body to physically restrain a child any LESS a show of arbitrary dominance and power than an adult hitting/spanking a child?

[annettemarie]

Originally Posted by readytobedone

i'm interested in this idea that they don't get it. how can someone just uniformly assert that a 20 month old doesn't understand time-out and thus it's a punishment? from what went on last night, it seemed she perfectly understood it. i really don't think she felt abandoned; i think she felt "hey! i'm not getting to come over and hit you anymore. my action has an actual consequence. this is new and strange."

I can uniformly assert this because I did graduate work in early childhood education and understand cognitive and emotional and moral development.

Your daughter does not make those connections. If she does, it's in a Pavlovian "crime and punishment" kind of way. "If I do this, mama makes something unpleasant happen to me." Which is fine I guess, if that's the kind of relationship you want to have. I personally don't see that fitting into an attachment parenting paradigm at all. Throw in the timed aspect (as I said before, your daughter can't tell time and has no concept of a minute. For all she knows, you're going to keep parking her back on that futon until the end of time) and the withdrawal of affection (blank face, turning the back on her, no speaking), and it seems even more inappropriate.

It's a punishment whether she understands it or not. She did something you didn't like, so you're doing something she won't like--something which goes against the very nature of a toddler--to "teach her a lesson". You're not walking away, you're forcing her to sit. You're not showing her anything, you're forcing her to sit. You're not channeling her energy into something acceptable, you're forcing her to sit. That's what makes it punitive and not discipline.

You seem pretty convinced that this is the way to go, and that it "works". You've only responded positively to people who have given you permission to do this to your daughter. I'm not exactly sure what you're looking for, since in your OP you seemed to want to opinions on how GD it is. My opinion is that it's not gentle, it's not discipline, and it doesn't promote attachment.

[Theoretica]

Originally Posted by readytobedone

this is actually really helpful and kind of affirms what i've been thinking myself. i appreciate your saying that different things work with different kids. my hunch is my child (at least at this point in time) needs time-out. i guess this is probably not the place to post such a wild assertion, but there you have it

again, thanks for you kind words.

Well that is definitely the crux of any parenting conversation, isn't it? LOL That different thing work for different kids

Here's my suggestion, FWIW, feel free to offer change

I hear you that the hitting and the aggression are feeling intense. That she's hitting the cat AND the people she loves tells me that yes, she needs a boundary. And, you know her best, so if you believe she's asking for a boundary then by all means show her there is a boundary! I am of the camp that arbitrary time outs aren't always the most beneficial and should, ideally, be avoided if possible. In our house we do more of a cooling off where child can go do whatever to calm down. BUT, it IS a natural consequence for people/animals to not want to be with you when you hurt them. So, while I might adjust the method to work better for me, if my 1yo is hurting others it would be important for me to help the 1yo understand...when you hurt people they want to go away.

Have you tried the library for books you can read together? I can't think of any offhand. Maybe you could even do a photo book yourself that 'tells the story' of hitting = hurting etc.

Also, is there a way to have a little more super-active playtime with her 3-4 times a day? Like run around the house and tickle, wrestle, etc. as a positive outlet for this physical energy? Pillow fight, jump on the couch/beds, bang pots and pans etc? This could be in 15 minute spurts throughout the day, but I'd bet it makes a difference? If you already do this, do it more...LOL

I'll try and brainstorm some more, good luck mama!!

ETA: What about getting a soft bat and letting her hit the couch? Then if she hits someone you can swoop in and say Ohhhhh REMEMBER??? You can hit the couch with THIS (big dramatic silly flair while handing her the bat) but you can NOT hit Mama/Daddy/Kitty

Also, please know that if you need to walk away because you are at the end of your rope emotionally or patience wise, or whatever, there is NOTHING wrong with that. Make sure your bb is in a safe place and walk away, cool off, whatever you need to do to regroup and go back to tackling this. You can do it! This too shall pass!

[CaraboosMama]

Originally Posted by annettemarie

It's not that I'm against the concept when it's used it a "Whoa, Nelly, you're a little out of control. Let's take a moment to collect ourselves, shall we?" kind of way..

I agree. I would also suggest the book "Easy to Love, Difficult to Discipline" by Becky Bailey? She has many concrete GD type suggestions for different ages - but the biggest things I took away from the book were more to do with ME and dealing with my emotions before addressing situations as well as being assertive rather than passive or aggressive (in other relationships - not just with the kids.)

We offer positive choices as much as possible (Would you like to take your shoes off or would you like to get down from the bed? in the situation the OP mentioned) and remind them that hitting is not an option. I have also said at times when I feel like I need a minute "I love you and I need to go calm down for a minute before we talk about this." And if one of the kids is out of control tantruming/hitting/etc. I ask whether they would like to sit with me and calm down or calm down by themselves...because really - we all have times where we want to be consoled when we are upset and times when we want a few minutes alone.

With a 20 mth old it needs to be even more basic, but again, I would definitely recommend that book!

[CaraboosMama]

Originally Posted by readytobedone

i'm interested in this idea that they don't get it. how can someone just uniformly assert that a 20 month old doesn't understand time-out and thus it's a punishment? from what went on last night, it seemed she perfectly understood it. i really don't think she felt abandoned; i think she felt "hey! i'm not getting to come over and hit you anymore. my action has an actual consequence. this is new and strange."

What a 20 mth old takes away from this is "If I don't do what she wants - the person I love is going to leave me." Is that really what you want to instill in your child? I know that sounds a bit extreme - but really, you are teaching her to rely completely on external motivation to do what you want rather than teaching her other ways of behaving appropriately.

The ideal would be to teach her APPROPRIATE ways of expressing herself (gentle touches, etc) rather than just punishing the negative behaviour.

[annettemarie]

One last thing.

The other thing that bothers me about it as that you're setting her up for failure. You're putting her on futon and turning your back. Of course she's going to get down. That's what toddlers do, they climb up and down stuff.

I would just really urge you to put yourself in her shoes. She's so little. She has this whole world in front of her, and all these limits she doesn't quite understand. Of course she's testing to see where they are! So when she hits, help her to be gentle. You don't need to tack a punishment on at the end to drive home the point. Keep the limits consistant and realistic, and she'll learn where they are. This is said with love by a mama who has gone through this 4 times now, each time with very different children, one of whom is your daughter's age and nursing right now because he pitched a fit at the "we don't throw kashi bars" limit.

[Daphneduck]

My two year old hits occasionally. We will go a week at a time with no hitting and then she has a day where she just seems to be in the mood to hit. I don't allow it. I don't like the idea of being punitive. I do a version of time out. If she hits once I remind her not to hit and that if she hits again, she will have to go play in her room until she can stop hitting. The warning is usually enough but if it isn't, I tell her to go to her room and if she refuses, I pick her up and take her there. I allow her to play with her toys, look at books or scream in anger if she wants, and I let her come out when she is ready, I do shut her door if she is screaming, but she knows how to open the door when she wants to come out. If she comes out and is still screaming (not crying, I would comfort her then, just screaming in anger) then I remind her that she is free to scream all she wants in her room, but the rest of the house belongs to everyone and nobody else wants to hear screaming. She usually plays in there, often happily, for two to five minutes and then comes out ready to play and be friendly. If I try to pull her close and encourage hugs and kisses instead of hitting, then there is an escalation in the aggression. She is a child that has always needed her space. She seems to need the time to herself and I am trying to teach her to recognize that and act on it. If there are real tears and sadness, I comfort her and at those times, that seems to work, too. I also trying to figure out what her triggers are and avoid them when possible.
I think that every child is different, though. What works for mine might be a disaster with another child. I do worry that this will stop working for us and I don't know what we will do then. Right now she never tries to follow me out of her room when I put her in there, if that changes, I'm not sure how I will handle it.

[Super Glue Mommy]

That is similar to what we do, only when I put my kids in what some would call "time out" I tell them "you are having a hard time stopping hitting. this is a safe place for you to calm down. when you are ready, we can all play nicely again" I dont really out a time limit on it. sometimes my son just stays and plays in his room for a little bt before coming back out. sometimes he comes out a minute later. sometimes he needs to be redirected back to his room because he is still being angry/destructive/etc.

I would also try the ask nicely, let them know what you need, then enforce consequences.

Please do not hit me. It hurts mommy.
I need you to stop hitting. If you cannot stop yourself from hitting mommy will help you find a safe place for you to calm down.
if she hits again bring her to the safe place.

I guess this is kind of similar to what mistymama was saying...

I think its about the approach though. time out is a more of "im doing this to you because you did this to me" where as giving them a quiet safe place to calm down is more of "im helping you do the right thing"

to some its just semantics.

[readytobedone]

Originally Posted by Theoretica

I hear you that the hitting and the aggression are feeling intense. That she's hitting the cat AND the people she loves tells me that yes, she needs a boundary. And, you know her best, so if you believe she's asking for a boundary then by all means show her there is a boundary! I am of the camp that arbitrary time outs aren't always the most beneficial and should, ideally, be avoided if possible. In our house we do more of a cooling off where child can go do whatever to calm down. BUT, it IS a natural consequence for people/animals to not want to be with you when you hurt them. So, while I might adjust the method to work better for me, if my 1yo is hurting others it would be important for me to help the 1yo understand...when you hurt people they want to go away.

thank you, yes, this is what i am feeling. it feels very intense to me.

Have you tried the library for books you can read together? I can't think of any offhand. Maybe you could even do a photo book yourself that 'tells the story' of hitting = hurting etc.

Also, is there a way to have a little more super-active playtime with her 3-4 times a day? Like run around the house and tickle, wrestle, etc. as a positive outlet for this physical energy? Pillow fight, jump on the couch/beds, bang pots and pans etc? This could be in 15 minute spurts throughout the day, but I'd bet it makes a difference? If you already do this, do it more...LOL

i'm definitely going to give this a try; great suggestion!

I'll try and brainstorm some more, good luck mama!!

ETA: What about getting a soft bat and letting her hit the couch? Then if she hits someone you can swoop in and say Ohhhhh REMEMBER??? You can hit the couch with THIS (big dramatic silly flair while handing her the bat) but you can NOT hit Mama/Daddy/Kitty

another good idea--we already tell her she can hit the couch if she wants to hit something. sometimes when she's mad and hitting an object (like a pillow), i encourage her to hit that and tell her "that is a good thing to hit when you're mad and need to hit." but i like the idea of a soft bat. do you happen to know who sells soft bats?

Also, please know that if you need to walk away because you are at the end of your rope emotionally or patience wise, or whatever, there is NOTHING wrong with that. Make sure your bb is in a safe place and walk away, cool off, whatever you need to do to regroup and go back to tackling this. You can do it! This too shall pass!

thanks, this was extremely helpful.

[Super Glue Mommy]

Daphne I also agree with you on the screaming issue - we use th same phrase (the house belongs to everyone, if you want to scream you can scream in your room.) I think the approach teaches children to give themselves a "time out" BEFORE they get to that point. I somtimes suggest it to my kids when I see it escalating but before it gets ot that point. I suggest some play time alone in their room and let them know sometimes you just need time to yourself. I dont enforce it in any way at that time, it's just a suggestion. If they are out of control though, then I will tell them they need to go to their room until they calm down, and take them if they dont go on their own.

[Super Glue Mommy]

my daughter learned to hit when she was angry from my friends mom. when my daughter hit her head on the table, my friends mom would go "pow pow!" and hit the table. my daughter then started hitting everyone she got mad at, and I know she learned from the table thing, because her hitting was accompanied with "pow pow". for her, it was important that I tell her it nots okay to hit - not even the table. I have ot let my friends mom know not to do this with her anymore either. I know it works for some people, but we do not allow any form of hitting as an expression for anger. We may take time to cool down alone, or we may color a picture and pres hard with our crayons, etc.

I do also agree with teaching the ways a child CAN touch others (gently)

[DevaMajka]

What really helped me with that kind of testing was this:
1. give information (yes, even if you think they already KNOW why not to do it- they probably don't really. lol)
2. honor the impulse- there is a legitimate reason that a young kid does what he/she does. It's all about learning- cause and effect, how they affect the world, testing limits, science, everything. It's just that sometimes the way they are trying to express that is not ok. So find a way for them to express themselves/learn what they are trying to learn.
3. redirect in a way that honors the impulse/find an agreeable solution- Ime, you have to be VERY specific. Tell them what they CAN do that is related to what they were doing.
For example, when my ds was under 2, we had an issue with him hitting me with books. He wanted me to read them (that was his legitimate reason). I wanted him to know that he CAN'T hit me.
I tried lots of things- walking away from him (which left him upset, but didn't teach anything), yelling (not a purposely chosen thing, mind you), explaining that hitting hurt, blah blah blah. I even tried redirecting- "Just hand me the book, don't hit me with it." (I discovered that wasn't specific enough)
You know what worked? ONE TIME I told him "If you want me to read a book to you, put the book in my hand." And he has never hit me with a book since.

So just because redirecting isn't fixing it, it might be that you aren't being specific enough, or that the way you are redirecting isn't really helping your dd express/learn what she was trying to do in the first place (ie, distracting her to something unrelated- I personally don't think this is helpful at all, except in very few situations).

And I know it's frustrating when kids do that- (do something *similar* to what you told them not to do). But it's kinda a neat learning process. It shows that they did listen to you when you said "Don't do x." They're just checking to see if that applies to 1 marker instead of the whole box.

[Daphneduck]

Originally Posted by Super Glue Mommy

Daphne I also agree with you on the screaming issue - we use th same phrase (the house belongs to everyone, if you want to scream you can scream in your room.) I think the approach teaches children to give themselves a "time out" BEFORE they get to that point.

Bold is mine, but this is what I am hoping to accomplish. I was almost 30 before I learned to walk away from a negative interaction and not contribute to the escalation of it. I am hoping that my dd will learn to control that at a younger age.

[ssh]

Originally Posted by readytobedone

i'm interested in this idea that they don't get it. how can someone just uniformly assert that a 20 month old doesn't understand time-out and thus it's a punishment? from what went on last night, it seemed she perfectly understood it. i really don't think she felt abandoned; i think she felt "hey! i'm not getting to come over and hit you anymore. my action has an actual consequence. this is new and strange."

Basically humans are born with 25% of the brains developed, the other 75% develops over the next 7 years. People under 3 years old have very little higher level reasoning abilities because of their neurological development ......... at 20 months old probably none. So no empathy, no ability to plan (so can't manipulate), only beginnings of physical cause and effect, no impulse control.

When my dd (3 right now) was about that age, we were telling her to be gentle and modeling gentle behavior. If that wasn't working, I'd ask her what she was doing and suggest something more fun. Sometimes walking outside can distract when nothing else does. You don't let them bite, hit or kick by gently blocking or moving out of the way. I would tell my dd that 'I don't let people hurt me' and sometimes 'here kick the pillow not mommy'. You can also say teeth are eating, feet are for jumping. Also biting can suddenly get really bad if molars are about to come in. I'd give my dd shaved ice that I'd made in the blender (about the consistancy of snow). Teething pain can cause biting and unpleasant behavior.

We don't use times outs, except for me ......... I've handed dd to my husband and taken a break. I've used time-ins, which is picking the child up or sitting the child in your lap when they aren't behaving safely.

[Super Glue Mommy]

the brain is 80% developed by age 2 and 90% by age 5. Even my developmentally delayed son showed empathy by time he could crawl, before he could walk (between 7 and 13 months) billions of synapses make connections in the brain every second for a baby.

that being said, I agree time ins, redirection, and modeling appropriate behavior is best at all times, but really all I personally would use during the first 2 years. at that point is when we teach them the importance of walking away and finding a safe place to vent off anger without hurting anyone else. (I wouldnt say the day they turn 2 or anything, just sometime after the 2nd year, when I feel like they are ready for that)

[readytobedone]

Originally Posted by annettemarie

Your daughter does not make those connections. If she does, it's in a Pavlovian "crime and punishment" kind of way. "If I do this, mama makes something unpleasant happen to me." Which is fine I guess, if that's the kind of relationship you want to have. I personally don't see that fitting into an attachment parenting paradigm at all.

i see what you're saying. i just think kids have to learn that their behavior will have consequences--if you hit people, they aren't going to play with you. they're going to be mad at you. if i let things go on being fine and pleasant when she is repeatedly hurting us, then how am i giving a consequence? our job is to teach them about the results of their actions, but make the consequences humane and reasonable. or at least IMO.

Throw in the timed aspect (as I said before, your daughter can't tell time and has no concept of a minute. For all she knows, you're going to keep parking her back on that futon until the end of time) and the withdrawal of affection (blank face, turning the back on her, no speaking), and it seems even more inappropriate.

i wasn't like using an egg timer. the idea was just to get her to sit for a reasonable length of time, to realize the whole thing wasn't a game and give her enough time to break the cycle of hitting. she was playing with a pillow. she could see me. she wasn't begging for interaction while i ignored her screams. she wasn't in solitary confinement.


It's a punishment whether she understands it or not. She did something you didn't like, so you're doing something she won't like--something which goes against the very nature of a toddler--to "teach her a lesson". You're not walking away, you're forcing her to sit. You're not showing her anything, you're forcing her to sit. You're not channeling her energy into something acceptable, you're forcing her to sit. That's what makes it punitive and not discipline.

if i walk away, she comes after me and hits me. or she goes and hits DH. she starts throwing her trains. or slapping the cat. the point of "forcing her to sit" is that it breaks the pattern. it interrupts the impulse to destroy stuff. it is not just to teach her a lesson but to truly redirect her from hitting, as well as to show that if she hits, i won't keep playing with her.

You seem pretty convinced that this is the way to go, and that it "works". You've only responded positively to people who have given you permission to do this to your daughter. I'm not exactly sure what you're looking for, since in your OP you seemed to want to opinions on how GD it is. My opinion is that it's not gentle, it's not discipline, and it doesn't promote attachment.

i guess i mostly wanted reassurance that this isn't horrible. apparently some people think it is. others don't. so that's honest.

i dunno, the GD thing makes sense to me, but at some point i think they have to learn that you are completely serious about something, that it's a real limit in the world, no messing around. i don't have another way to show that to her, at least not at this point. nothing i say or have done makes any difference.

i'm going to try redirecting more specifically like the PP recommended, and maybe a pillow to punch and more physical play. i'm not just planning to use time-outs all the time; just still surprised that it "worked" much better than i had thought it would and with minimal trauma or hurt feelings. it was interesting in that respect.