those who DO do some form of time-out, please come in - Page 3

[Super Glue Mommy]

i do agree with the "if you arent nice people wont want to play with you" concept. I just want to TEACH my children what to do with their feelings. Good ways to express them, sfe places to go or good ways to walk away when they are boiling with anger, etc.

I used to be more okay with time outs then I am now. I have learned from other gentle mamas though that there are other approaches to this (i used to always do the time out for hitting/throwing things/etc - now I work more on using these times to teach)

I'm sure some people still think the way I do things is still a time out. maybe ill agree wit those people one day. for now though, its not really a time out, thats not the attitude we have about it. its a tool I am teaching my children. to go find a place to unwind instead of hurting others or being destructive towards their envirnment.

[Super Glue Mommy]

btw - I definitely don't think what you are doing is horrible. I do think with time and experience you may find a better approach, but even if not, its not horrible like spanking or yelling.

[octobermom]

Originally Posted by LynnS6
Instead it was a "you're welcome to join us when you've calmed down". For our ds especially, he needed to be physically separated from us to achieve that. He's easily overstimulated, and being near the 'source' of the problem kept him revved up. Alone, he'd storm for a bit, and then let us comfort him. With us, he'd keep going.

Add my DD to this list, We actually include a simple old fashion timer with out "timeouts" not because we tell her sit here for 6 mintues and think about what you did wrong but because she tends to hyper focus on the issue no matter how "petty" it may be. She finds a LOT of comfort in that silly timer its like it gives her permission to have some big feelings but also permission to let it go, she'll actually tell us its almost time mommy 10 9 8 I can almost feel great again! .

Deanna

[Juvysen]

First, there's a children's book called "hands are not for hitting", also one called "teeth are not for biting", which may or may not be helpful. My DD went through a biting phase (biting her brother) and those books helped a bit... we'd read them after something happened (and regularly anyway), and she seemed to associate the concept after a while. It also gave me rhymes to use to talk to her when she was looking like she might bite.

Did we do time outs? Not as such, but what I *DID* do is change the venue... I'd put her in her high chair and give her something to eat or paint or ... something to do. Usually it was enough to change the behavior without too much ado. Which, actually, reminds me that I should do that more with DS, since he is in a "get in my sister's hair as much as possible" phase and I've been yelling more than I should.

[EnviroBecca]

Ready to Be Done, I think your approach makes a fair amount of sense, and I can see you're basing it on what you observe about your individual child. I'd be wary of making time-outs too abstract or hostile. Keep the focus on your pain and your desire to get away from someone who's hurting you. If she follows you, keep pulling away and avoiding her. Close a door between you if possible (look out for her fingers!). Keep time-outs very short, just long enough that you hear or see a change in her or YOU feel you've gotten your breath and are ready to cope again.

Consider correcting her behavior sooner (before you are fed up) and then giving a second chance.

But also, remember that she's really only very small, and do your best to be patient and cope with that "hit her back" feeling.

ssh wrote:

Basically humans are born with 25% of the brains developed, the other 75% develops over the next 7 years. People under 3 years old have very little higher level reasoning abilities because of their neurological development ......... at 20 months old probably none. So no empathy, no ability to plan (so can't manipulate), only beginnings of physical cause and effect, no impulse control.

Oh boy. First of all, our brains are NEVER 100% developed; only a minority of our brain tissue ever gets used. Even the parts we do use are not 100% "developed" at age 7! We keep forming new connections all our lives (unless living in a very deprived environment), and there's also a major leap in cognitive function around 11 years old.

The rest of what you said depends on your exact definitions of the terms, but in observing my own child and working in developmental psych research, I've learned that these skills do begin to develop at an early age. I have watched baby after baby, 5 to 9 months old, learn in just a few minutes that when blue triangles appear on the center screen, the next picture is going to pop up on the left, but when it's red circles in the center, the next picture will be on the right, and turn their heads accordingly; that's planning. I've watched them learn that if they press a button, a shelf 6 feet away will tilt and make the toy on it roll down a ramp to them; that's physical cause and effect. Here are my thoughts on impulse control and understanding consequences.

[readytobedone]

envirobecca--you are awesome!

those blog posts were so incredibly helpful. i really like the second chance thing, and i actually do that a lot (briefly take a toy away, then if she cries tell her she can "try again" with it. it does work well, lots of times!).

i definitely don't think time-outs should be hostile at all. in fact the point is for us BOTH to stop being hostile

DH is picking her up from daycare right now, and when i see her, i'm totally going to think about how she's very small. what a sweet sentiment.

suddenly i have a major parenting advice crush on you :

[Grace24]

Originally Posted by annettemarie

It's not that I'm against the concept when it's used it a "Whoa, Nelly, you're a little out of control. Let's take a moment to collect ourselves, shall we?" kind of way. But a baby? They don't get it.

When I read the OP's original statement and description of the scene, it seemed like her child did get it. She says she calmed down and seemed to change her behavior.

To the OP: you know your child best, and you seemed to react to your child the way you thought you needed to, having tried other things in the past that didn't seem to work. If you sense she needs limits, trust that. I really don't think what you did was so harsh, but then again I don't visit the GD forum very often. My little guy is only 14 months old so I guess I haven't needed to. But he is a hitter and a biter and although I redirect and distract, I can see a day coming where I might have to try something else. I hope I'm wrong. But anyhow I just wanted to speak up and say maybe you should just trust yourself a little more to read your daughter and what she needs. You know her best.

I know I'll probably get flamed for this but I had to speak out in the OP's defense. Seems like she kinda got jumped all over for "punishing a baby" when what I saw in the situation was a toddler who was purposely testing limits. Believe me I know when my little guy is trying to see what he can get away with, even as young as he is.

[Grace24]

Originally Posted by alegna

What she gets is that it's a punishment.

She doesn't get how it's helping her.

-Angela

I didn't understand a lot of the limits my parents set until last year. But I sure am glad they set them.

[Shera971]

Wow, there have been a lot of posts with great information so I won't add much.

The OP said that her child is 20 months yet a lot of PP are refering to a 1 yr. To me a child who is 12 months is a lot different than at 20 months. IMO at 12 months the child is still a baby but at 20, the child is in toddler hood and can express and understand a lot more.

I do time outs with my son and started when he was about 18 months (he is now 3). At that time I would let him know that what he did was wrong and then place him in a quiet spot so he could calm down and he could come out whenever he was ready to play nicely. When he was ready we would have a quick discussion (it hurt mommy when you hit her) and then off to play. I don't do it for everything, only for the "deal breakers" like hitting or biting.

I think its really important to instill the concept that there are consequences for your actions. It doesn't have to be in a cruel way (ie spanking, isolation etc) but the idea needs to come across. Life has consequences and I want my son to grow up knowing that what he does effects others and himself.

I also want to add that I don't think there is ""One Way" for every child. OP, you know your child and whats best for your family.

[alegna]

Originally Posted by Grace24

I didn't understand a lot of the limits my parents set until last year. But I sure am glad they set them.

I would rather that my children always understand my reasons. My parents never set a rule within my memory that I didn't understand the reason behind. We had very few rules. Worked for us.

-Angela

[waiting2bemommy]

I think (I only read the OP and none of the replies) that children crave limits. I know I did as a kid. I know my ds definitely does. He NEEDS to know what's OK and what's not. Otherwise, he will test and test and test. Once i say, "ok, enough. stop now." and follow through, he moves on to actually enjoying our playtime together. i don't put him in timeout, but I put him down and walk away if he hits or bites. after a moment I will come back to him and hug him and remind him that xyz is not safe or gentle or polite (the only three rules I really have) and we move on. but if I just keep saying stop, he laughs and continues, and no amount of distraction or redirection stop the behavior.

So I don't think that's cruel.

[MaterPrimaePuellae]

I've only read Page 1, and this isn't an issue I feel deeply about either way, but I'll share with OP what we've experience:

My DD is 22 mos. She is doing exactly the sort of thing your describe.
She usually gets one warning-- "C, Mommy told you not to play in the dog's food, if you do it again," etc. I am always very calm, "Okay, now you're going to time out." I really do think she gets it. She will sometimes be playing in the dog's food, look up to find me staring at her, and say, "Oooh... Time out!" She is at the point now where I can say, "Go sit in time out," and she goes by herself. As soon as I come into the room to get her (or come over if I have stayed in the room-- I don't leave unless I need to be elsewhere, and I try to maintain voice contact at least), she brightens and says, "Sorry, Mommy." We talk about what she should have done, we hug, return to playing.

She doesn't like it, but she almost never even cries about it. I feel very confident that it is not traumatizing to her, and really... I need it. I need to feel like I'm doing something concrete about repeated undesireable behaviors, and I need a minute, sometimes.

I agree with the PP who said that different approaches work for different children. You know your child best; right now, it's really the only think that I can think of that seems to work with her. Also, almost all of her infractions are the sort that separation is the only natural consequence. I'm not sure how to effect that sort of consequence if not through time-out.

ETA-- I just started reading The No-Cry Discipline Solution. I have found it really, really helpful so far. In fact, there are points where I was almost in tears because it was very much affirming the idea that, "You love your child. You are reading this book because you want to be a good parent. If you are succeeding even 70% of the time, you are doing a good job and have a lot to be proud of." So far, I recommend it.

[Danielle13]

Originally Posted by alegna

I would rather that my children always understand my reasons. My parents never set a rule within my memory that I didn't understand the reason behind. We had very few rules. Worked for us.

-Angela

But that wouldn't work for everyone. I know with my daughter, she needs structure. If there is none she's a basket case. I'm not saying I schedule her, or have a million rules, or have an unbaby proofed house. But I do have to have some rules, an organized day and house and we have to follow a routine. We tried the other way and it was a disaster.

All kids and families are different. Perhaps my next child will feel abandoned if I try to discipline the same way I discipline dd, then I'll have to do something that works for them. yk?

[alegna]

Originally Posted by Danielle13

But that wouldn't work for everyone. I know with my daughter, she needs structure. If there is none she's a basket case. I'm not saying I schedule her, or have a million rules, or have an unbaby proofed house. But I do have to have some rules, an organized day and house and we have to follow a routine. We tried the other way and it was a disaster.

All kids and families are different. Perhaps my next child will feel abandoned if I try to discipline the same way I discipline dd, then I'll have to do something that works for them. yk?

I absolutely agree that kids need structure and many need a reliable routine. However I see no reason that there need to be rules that seem arbitrary to a child. Even a very young toddler can understand on a basic level the reasons behind things- we don't bite because it hurts mama.

-Angela

[LynnS6]

What about framing this a completely different way? To focus on PREVENTION rather than the post hoc boundary?

Why? Once a toddler STARTS an action, it's almost impossible for them to stop it. They can inhibit an action, but they have to inhibit it before the action is underway. (Even for adults this is hard. Try punching a pillow and stopping half way!)

So, if you get them before they connect, you interrupt the cycle and show them that hitting is not tolerated. You can also model gentle with their hands. For kids who are chronic hitters, what often works best is to 'shadow' them for a week or more. Your job is to intercept the hit before it starts. If you can intercept gently or move away before the hit, then you also remove 'satisfaction' of making contact and the ensuing reaction.

If she makes contact (and she will), what I'd rather see someone do with a 20 month old (who is still as "one year old" because they haven't turned 2) is that you sit her on the couch when she hits and say "that hurt. Be gentle. You can get up when you're ready to be gentle." Then, stay nearby. If she gets up and follows you/dh/the cats and hits, the park her back on the couch. Calmly, with the same boring directions.

Enforcing a time limit is arbitrary and difficult for a 20 month old to understand. Linking a desired behavior isn't so arbitrary.

Honestly, I'd also be leery of teaching her to hit something else when she's mad -that doesn't actually teach her not to hit.

What about teaching her to stomp? And then do some deep breathing.

I'm not completely against time outs. But I think their effectiveness is pretty limited, and you'll never convince me that a 20 month old really understands WHY they're in time out. If it serves to distract and redirect them, fine. But once you start enforcing time limits, you've lost me.

[Danielle13]

Originally Posted by alegna

I absolutely agree that kids need structure and many need a reliable routine. However I see no reason that there need to be rules that seem arbitrary to a child. Even a very young toddler can understand on a basic level the reasons behind things- we don't bite because it hurts mama.

-Angela

not my daughter

ok well, yes she understands it hurts and does it anyways.

I'd love advice from anyone on how to help that situation.

[jadielynn]

ACT NOT RE-act

I am dealing with a almost 2.5 year old. Getting him to understand that him and I are on the same team, and that rules are there to help us all be safe and feel loved. It is very hard to not punish him for not obeying rules. One thing that I have implemented lately that is helping is acting, doing what I think is necessary at the time of conflict, but not over doing it with communication. It doesn't work for everyone, but it may help. Act with what is reasonable to you.
Ex; like if my son has an object he is hitting things or people with, and He throws a tantrum when I have to remove the object from him, it turns into a power struggle, or a conflict.
I may do a number of things that were suggested before, like distract him by being really goofy, or change the environment, finding acceptable alternatives i.e.: redirect his behavior like let him scribble on paper, or throw pillows, but at this point it may be to late for this.
I may remove Him from the environment and we may use the time for cuddling, and sharing feelings after he is calmed down.
I have found that it is sometimes useless and aggravating to us both for me to explain and lecture during the time of conflict unless we are both in the frame of mind for it. If I am not calm then it won't work. And if he is screaming and carrying on he is not going to listen. I am not saying not to communicate, just not lecture about the behavior until she can accept what you are saying. With a behavior that is really infuriating and pushing you to your limits like this, it is probably time for you to sit down and make some I statements. Write it down, and when it is the best time of day for her (like after a nap and a snack and while you are playing…) talk to her about how you feel.
Ex; I feel sad when you hit me and the Cat and Daddy. I want to be
treated softly. Tell her what is acceptable. Don't focus so much on what you don't want her to do as what you do want her to do. I would really like to trust you to be gentle and soft to mommy daddy and the cat. We really love you but hitting hurts. ….
This may seem to go far over her head. She will probably get most of it, and the intention of it. But it is mostly to train you. And you can also feel better that you have expressed yourself to her.
Sometimes children are trying to find out where they fit into the family, and of course they do this by testing out the boundaries. And sometimes when I give into my son by reacting too much to his ploy for attention it blows up at me. It is that theory that Dreikurs gives in his book Children the Challenge. An old book, but most of these books about parenting are based on his theories. Others just give practical application.
Your daughter may be getting a reaction out of you when a power struggle occurs that might make her feel like she has a place in the family, whether it is good or bad reaction.
I am sure that you are trying as hard as you can it sounds like it, and I may be writing this mostly for my own benefit so I can refocus on what I am trying to do. I hope this helps. And I have been opened up to a lot of new thoughts by all you wonderful mothers on this thread. Keep up on your Awesome intentions!

[readytobedone]

well, i'm the OP and wanted to post an update. maybe it's DH who needs time-out

last night she was throwing books at him, and i was following the advice of a PP and directing her to place it in his hand if she wants him to read to her. he has just taken up knitting (strangely enough for a guy, but whatever) and was knitting and not stopping to read to her. so she was getting frustrated. and she was not accepting my offer to read to her instead--she wanted daddy. finally she was sitting in his lap looking at books (and he was sort of half-reading to her while he knitted) and hit him with one (goodnight moon board book), and he threw the book across the room yelling NO, STOP THROWING BOOKS AT ME! which scared her.

it pi$$ed me off because he didn't even acknowledge that he had also thrown a book or stop to apologize or explain that was a mistake, we shouldn't throw books, etc. for the rest of the night she kept looking over to where he had thrown the book and then would throw one.



i still don't think he gets the issue here, or maybe he's just embarrassed he snapped because he won't apologize or talk about it. i had to tell her daddy was sorry, it was a mistake, etc.

so maybe DH needs a time-out! maybe we both do!!!! it seems like he's on the brink of losing it with her

[Grace24]

Originally Posted by LynnS6

Honestly, I'd also be leery of teaching her to hit something else when she's mad -that doesn't actually teach her not to hit.

To be honest, this is the issue with redirection for my son. He thinks it's fun to bat at something else, and when he turns my attention back to me, continues to bat at me. I know he thinks he's playing, but really the best thing for him, IMHO, is not redirection, it's holding his arm down. He fusses at me, and I don't hold it hard, but like this PP was saying, it's easier to prevent him from doing it for a moment, then put him down, than to allow him to continue the behavior but at an object instead. How does he know the difference? Thanks, Lynn, for posting this. I really do want to solve the hitting thing.

[alegna]

Originally Posted by Danielle13

not my daughter

ok well, yes she understands it hurts and does it anyways.

I'd love advice from anyone on how to help that situation.

And that's what makes a toddler She understands it hurts, but can't stop herself- either because it's a fun sensation, or there's a fun reaction, or whatever.

That is when you *help* them stop. As mentioned earlier, what worked for me in those situations was to dedicate a day or so to STOP the behavior before it happened.

-Angela