those who DO do some form of time-out, please come in - Page 4

[Grace24]

Angela, I'm sorry your DH is so testy with her. Do you think that's because he's frustrated with her behavior, or is she learning her behavior from his temper? I only ask because it is an issue in our house, a little... in the sense that DH and I both grew up around angry fathers and work REALLY HARD not to be throwers. So far we're doing really well but we're not perfect. O throws stuff a lot, I think it's just because he's "that age" but I hate to think he learned it from me.

Sorry you're dealing with this, it's so hard. Have you talked to him about it?

[Hazelnut]

haven't read the whole thread. I DO do time outs, but I not that young. At that age I think testing is frustrating, but I don't really even consider it acting out the way I would with an older child. I mean there is so little self-control, kwim?

[EnviroBecca]

when i see her, i'm totally going to think about how she's very small. what a sweet sentiment.

suddenly i have a major parenting advice crush on you

Gosh! I'm glad my articles were helpful, but I have to clarify that I can't take credit for the basic idea of the "very small" post--it's something that I saw several times from various people on these boards, and then I began to find it helpful myself, starting when my son was right around the age your daughter is now and was talking in phrases and seeming more like a kid than a baby, so that I tended to expect a bit too much from him at times.

About your husband freaking out: Both my partner and I have done things like that at times. If the other parent is present and can make him/herself available, I think the best response is to step in and say, "Daddy's had enough! He needs to be alone for a while." and take the child away. You want to discuss that in advance, though, to avoid intervening at times when he would feel offended (like you're saying he's an incompetent parent), and to agree on some ways to communicate, "I don't want to be the POD now," without freaking out.

[readytobedone]

Originally Posted by Grace24

Do you think that's because he's frustrated with her behavior, or is she learning her behavior from his temper?
<snip>

Sorry you're dealing with this, it's so hard. Have you talked to him about it?

i think he's frustrated with her behavior. true, back in our childless days, we used to get into some real knock-down drag-outs complete with throwing stuff. so i know we BOTH have a temper. but he doesn't do that anymore, i mean almost never, so i don't think she's learning it from him...we definitely don't hit each other

i do need to talk to him about it. i didn't press him on it last night. but we do need to discuss it. i think as she's getting older, we're both finding it harder to accept her difficult behavior. it's like we think she should understand things that she still doesn't or can't really totally understand--like "it's bedtime. let's lie down and go to sleep." he is getting frustrated with her around that, too.

i did try to remove her from his presence after he threw the book, but that made her REALLY upset; i think she felt like she was in trouble, so i had to explain it wasn't her fault and so forth. she wanted to sit with him still.

i still think he should've taken more responsibility for his actions there, and the fallout from it with her, but oh well.

[sewcool]

first let me just say before you reply to anyone's post read it clearly Ive seen many people assuming or just not understand what someone has said many times I'm seeing someone say they don't put a baby in time out and others say why would you put a baby in time out READ before posting.


Also I do use time out with my 4 and 3 year old when needed. We do not tolerate hitting of any kind in our home and when they do they get an instant time out no warning. They know they are not supposed to hit we have had many talks and "lessons" on other ways of dealing with issues and they are fully aware that its not OK.

We also us time out when they are just out of control we call it the "simmer down spot" a place to take a break and regroup. They sit on a cute little stool in the kitchen (not facing the wall) and they are able to calm down and talk about what happened and what could have been done instead.

We do not use time out for small things but for repeated ignorance of the rule or hitting/hurting. and i don't see any problem with it.

[annettemarie]

Originally Posted by sewcool

first let me just say before you reply to anyone's post read it clearly Ive seen many people assuming or just not understand what someone has said many times I'm seeing someone say they don't put a baby in time out and others say why would you put a baby in time out READ before posting.

I have a 21 month old. I have had 3 other 21 month olds. I have cared for other 21 month olds. I have studied 21 month olds. They are still very much babies, just beginning to be toddlers. Why would you assume we didn't read?

[sewcool]

i was talking about this

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amylcd
I do time-outs with my older kids, but not with the baby.

then your reply

It's not that I'm against the concept when it's used it a "Whoa, Nelly, you're a little out of control. Let's take a moment to collect ourselves, shall we?" kind of way. But a baby? They don't get it. It's not discipline, which means to teach, but punishment, which, IMHO, is not something you do to a baby or even a toddler.


she said she does not do it with her baby

[readytobedone]

Originally Posted by Shera971

I think its really important to instill the concept that there are consequences for your actions. It doesn't have to be in a cruel way (ie spanking, isolation etc) but the idea needs to come across. Life has consequences and I want my son to grow up knowing that what he does effects others and himself.

exactly what i think.

[annettemarie]

Originally Posted by sewcool

i was talking about this

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amylcd
I do time-outs with my older kids, but not with the baby.

then your reply

It's not that I'm against the concept when it's used it a "Whoa, Nelly, you're a little out of control. Let's take a moment to collect ourselves, shall we?" kind of way. But a baby? They don't get it. It's not discipline, which means to teach, but punishment, which, IMHO, is not something you do to a baby or even a toddler.


she said she does not do it with her baby

You completely misunderstood me. I was referring back to the OP. I was agreeing with Amy about the concept of time-out/time-in with older children, but that I am against it when done with a baby/toddler, as the OP described.

Perhaps next time you could ask for clarification rather than assuming it was others who read incorrectly.

[readytobedone]

Originally Posted by annettemarie

I have a 21 month old. I have had 3 other 21 month olds. I have cared for other 21 month olds. I have studied 21 month olds. They are still very much babies, just beginning to be toddlers. Why would you assume we didn't read?

this is confusing to me. what you're saying here implies that all 21 month olds are developmentally the same. this clearly isn't true.

when do you think time-outs are appropriate? because i read a lot of places that they begin to "get" them at 2, and well, 21 months is pretty darn close to 2

it seems to me that you can either think time-outs are okay, or think they aren't (both valid viewpoints), but to have a hard and fast timeline for when they are suddenly okay makes little sense. we know from dealing with solids readiness for example that "readiness" can vary widely from child to child. some are ready at 5 months; some not ready until 10 months, or not interested until much later.

so couldn't one child be "ready" for time-outs at 21 months, and another not ready till 27+ months?

[annettemarie]

The whole idea of developmental psychology says that generally, children who are the same age are at the same place cognitively, physically, etc. Unless you're dismissing the idea of developmental ages and stages completely? But yes, I am coming from the point of view that, for the most part, barring exceptionalities, most 21-month-olds are the same.

And I don't think there's anything contradictory about saying a discipline method is inappropriate for one age but not for another. I would not do time-out the way you described ("supernanny style") with any age though. With an older child, I have used a comfort corner/time-in style of "get yourself together" time.

Obviously, you think this is an appropriate way to discipline a toddler. I disagree. Which is fine. I don't think you're a bad mother or that you're abusive, I just disagree that a time-out as you described it is inappropriate for a 21-month-old (any 21-month-old). However, I also know that being a mother can be very frustrating, especially when they attack you, and I am sure you are striving to be the best and most loving mother you can be. We don't have to agree, and I apologize if you feel like I'm trying to force you to my point of view.

[readytobedone]

Originally Posted by annettemarie

The whole idea of developmental psychology says that generally, children who are the same age are at the same place cognitively, physically, etc. Unless you're dismissing the idea of developmental ages and stages completely? But yes, I am coming from the point of view that, for the most part, barring exceptionalities, most 21-month-olds are the same.

oh, okay. that helps clarify. i guess i'm skeptical of that POV, since there are kids talking in full, elaborate sentences at 12-18 months and others not speaking a word, kwim? not that i'm saying verbal ability correlates with discipline readiness; it's just an example of the extent of developmental differences that can exist in kids the same age.

And I don't think there's anything contradictory about saying a discipline method is inappropriate for one age but not for another.

for me there is because i don't accept the above premise we were just talking about

Obviously, you think this is an appropriate way to discipline a toddler. I disagree. Which is fine. I don't think you're a bad mother or that you're abusive, I just disagree that a time-out as you described it is inappropriate for a 21-month-old (any 21-month-old). However, I also know that being a mother can be very frustrating, especially when they attack you, and I am sure you are striving to be the best and most loving mother you can be. We don't have to agree, and I apologize if you feel like I'm trying to force you to my point of view.

thanks! we can disagree and that's fine; i just like to understand where you're coming from and the developmental psychology assumptions were ones i didn't realize.

[heartmama]

I always use 'ages and stages' to help orient myself with a problem behavior.
I do factor in the individual child's ability though--because it really does vary. I have been around 21 month old toddlers who were emotionally big mobile babies, barely talking, needing close proximity to mom, lots of nursing, no interest in self-care yet, not interested in exerting control over their environment yet--and toddlers the same age who were more like teeny tiny children, talking in full sentences, dressing themselves, wanting to 'do it myself', demanding a lot more control over their environment. I can't say that the same approach will work with both toddlers!

I think it is definitely possible that your dd is pushing to find the limits of this situation. I think what people are saying is that it's important, with children this young, to err on the 'gentle' side more than the 'discipline' side because there really is so much going on at this age that will resolve on it's own with time. Even the most precocious 21 month old isn't going to have the same level of cognitive ability they will in just another year. The difference from 2 to 3 is usually more drastic than the difference from, say, 6 to 7. There is a lot of change on the horizon with a 21 month old. You want to keep that in mind.

I think having limits about being hit is very legitimate. It is a healthy limit. And if you are really feeling so exasperated you want to scream, it is healthier to do some kind of time out than not. But I would leave that as a last resort. I wouldn't use it as the 'first line of discipline'. Put a lot of other stuff in your parenting toolbox first. And something to keep in mind is that you don't actually need to leave the room or even be more than an arms length away to enforce a hitting limit. This is something I didn't realize when my own ds was a toddler. It is enough to just put an arms length between you and say "No hitting, it hurts" (move her just an arms length away) and repeat until she stops slapping or shoving. You are staying so close there is no possible way to assert she will feel abandoned. The distance is just sufficient to demonstrate *what* she cannot do. She cannot hit. She can be near you. She cannot hit. She can see you right there, but she cannot hit. I think keeping the separation so very small isolates the *action* as unacceptable, but not the *child*. It may require repeated attempts of moving her just out of arms reach, she may pitch quite a fit--but if I were %100 sure nothing else was getting the point across, and I really couldn't tolerate the hitting, I think this is a very do-able way to enforce a limit on the *action* without giving the impression that you are abandoning her, or the situation.

[CaraboosMama]

Originally Posted by annettemarie

The whole idea of developmental psychology says that generally, children who are the same age are at the same place cognitively, physically, etc. Unless you're dismissing the idea of developmental ages and stages completely? But yes, I am coming from the point of view that, for the most part, barring exceptionalities, most 21-month-olds are the same.

And I don't think there's anything contradictory about saying a discipline method is inappropriate for one age but not for another. I would not do time-out the way you described ("supernanny style") with any age though. With an older child, I have used a comfort corner/time-in style of "get yourself together" time.

I wanted to add one more thing -- as a mom & a preschool teacher --
Yes - each age has a range in terms of how advanced individual children are developmentally. However, many parents (myself included!) sometimes mistake verbal/vocabulary development with emotional and social development. There is overlap sometimes - but many kids make verbal leaps that might make it SEEM like they have a greater emotional understanding than they do.

For example, my 4 1/2 year old has a huge vocabulary, but has the impulse control, patience, etc. of a 4 1/2 year old. Sometimes I have to remind myself to adjust my expectations accordingly.

And really, barring extreme giftedness or developmental delay - there are pretty concrete developmental expectations for each age. Children do not typically develop and "internal dialogue" until they are about 7. They are not internally weighing their options. Impulse control is learned and also strengthened as other developmental milestones are met.

Readytobedone - Please don't take any of this as criticism of YOU as a parent. You came here looking for advice & it seems like many people are here to give it! None of us has this parenting gig all figured out -- that's why we come here...we ask for help when we need it and offer help when we have it to give.