Form for doctors to sign

[pumpkinhead]

I've been searching for a form that used to be available online that was basically a guarantee. It was for doctors to sign and it basically asked them to say "I guarantee that if you vaccinate your child, he or she will not be harmed" among other things.

I can't find it! Does anyone have a link?

[Ophelia]

I think this might help:

http://www.vaclib.org/legal/donotsign.htm

[Marnica]

I don't think there is any official form. You can create your own. No doc will sign it anyway!

[pumpkinhead]

Thanks guys. I know that there isn't an "official" one, but someone somewhere had created a really, really, good one and made it available online. I wish I could find it!

[Marnica]

is this it??

http://www.vaclib.org/basic/consent.txt

[kriket]

I don't think thats really fair to the doctor.

He vacs people because if he didn't offer and make it sound like you had to, if you contracted the disease you would sue him for not offering the vax KWIM?

People need to be responsible for their own care with the help and guidance of the drs. Not try and blame, hold others responsible or try to corner drs into saying that they are intentionally harming you. Everything is a calculated risk, there is no right or wrong answer.

[Rachelismyname]

Originally Posted by pumpkinhead

I've been searching for a form that used to be available online that was basically a guarantee. It was for doctors to sign and it basically asked them to say "I guarantee that if you vaccinate your child, he or she will not be harmed" among other things.

I can't find it! Does anyone have a link?

Why, which vaccination are you getting? I think all anyone would sign is something that lists the known side effects/risks involved.

[Panserbjorne]

Originally Posted by kriket

I don't think thats really fair to the doctor.

He vacs people because if he didn't offer and make it sound like you had to, if you contracted the disease you would sue him for not offering the vax KWIM?

People need to be responsible for their own care with the help and guidance of the drs. Not try and blame, hold others responsible or try to corner drs into saying that they are intentionally harming you. Everything is a calculated risk, there is no right or wrong answer.

that's all well and good, but plenty of docs bulldoze parents, threaten and belittle them in order to compel them to vax. THAT'S who it's directed towards....the people who say no and the docs who make them feel like garbage.

Offering because it's your job to do so and letting it go went the parent declines is not an issue in my book.

[pumpkinhead]

Originally Posted by Marnica

is this it??

http://www.vaclib.org/basic/consent.txt

I think that's it! Thanks!

[pumpkinhead]

Originally Posted by kriket

I don't think thats really fair to the doctor.

He vacs people because if he didn't offer and make it sound like you had to, if you contracted the disease you would sue him for not offering the vax KWIM?

People need to be responsible for their own care with the help and guidance of the drs. Not try and blame, hold others responsible or try to corner drs into saying that they are intentionally harming you. Everything is a calculated risk, there is no right or wrong answer.

I once had a doctor tell me that not vaccinating exactly on schedule and with everything that was available at the time was akin to child abuse. He wanted me to sign a waiver that basically said I was knowingly putting my child at risk. With respect, was that fair to me?

This sort of form (which I'm sure no doctor would be actually willing to sign) sort of turns the tables and offers a different perspective. Most doctors are perfectly willing to insist you take the risk of vaccinating, but they're not willing to accept liablity should the unthinkable happen. It's telling.

[pumpkinhead]

Originally Posted by Rachelismyname

Why, which vaccination are you getting? I think all anyone would sign is something that lists the known side effects/risks involved.

None. That's not why I wanted the link .

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by kriket

I don't think thats really fair to the doctor.

He vacs people because if he didn't offer and make it sound like you had to, if you contracted the disease you would sue him for not offering the vax KWIM?

Okay - so that's why doctors perform the procedures they do. Why do they neglect to inform their patients of the risks involved in various procedures?

People need to be responsible for their own care with the help and guidance of the drs.

Yeah. Tell it to the doctors, because most of the ones I've met do not want patients to take any responsibility for their own care. We might ask questions or something.

[kriket]

Originally Posted by pumpkinhead

I once had a doctor tell me that not vaccinating exactly on schedule and with everything that was available at the time was akin to child abuse. He wanted me to sign a waiver that basically said I was knowingly putting my child at risk. With respect, was that fair to me?

This sort of form (which I'm sure no doctor would be actually willing to sign) sort of turns the tables and offers a different perspective. Most doctors are perfectly willing to insist you take the risk of vaccinating, but they're not willing to accept liability should the unthinkable happen. It's telling.

The form they had me sign would depend on what it said, If it said "I have been informed about vaxs and have refused them" (which is what most say) I don't have a problem with that. I have read on here about forms that were outrageous, but thats when you should look for a DR whos values are more inline with your own.

hum, the form seems snarky to me. Exp. the part where you say that the DR is responsible for basically paying out of his pocket for all the damages that may be caused? How can someone try and put that on another person? There are things that happen that are out of anyones control.

Originally Posted by Storm Bride

Okay - so that's why doctors perform the procedures they do. Why do they neglect to inform their patients of the risks involved in various procedures?
Yeah. Tell it to the doctors, because most of the ones I've met do not want patients to take any responsibility for their own care. We might ask questions or something.

I have always been informed of procedures and if needed and feasible, been given time to research things on my own. I've never had any serious procedures that were life threatening. Just D&C, some non invasive exams for head trama, and skin problem care.

I'm really sorry that some of you have had such negative experiences with DRs. There are good DRs out there that don't do this to their patients.

I think this is a case of 'treat others like you want to be treated' Why would someone force another to sign a form, when they themselves don't want to sign the form.

and why would you want you DR to sign a form if you aren't vaxing? That really seems like you are just trying to get under his skin.

[doctormom]

Um.

As a physician, if a patient was "insisting" that I sign that form (which uses some pretty inflammatory language) I would gently suggest that they might want to find another practice where they felt more comfortable. I'd do the same with any patient who wanted me to sign a statement that I would personally accept all liability for any possible adverse outcome they might experience under my care. I do my very best for every patient, but not everyone will have a perfect outcome...patients who expect the doctor to accept total liability for anything less than perfect health are a major medicolegal liability.

I have dozens of families in my practice who are delayed, selective, or non-vaxing, and I am strongly supportive of a parent's right to make an informed choice about vaccination. We have chosen to delay vax our own children. I'm totally on your side with regard to vaccine issues and parental rights. But if you brought me that document and demanded that I sign it, I would be sufficiently alarmed that I would be asking your family to find a new doctor.

[Panserbjorne]

I *really* think the point is being missed. First off, I dont' think anyone who WANTED to vaccinate would demand this. And you are correct, if they did then they are a huge liability and should be shown the door. This kind of thing (IMO and maybe I'm wrong) is expressly for people whose doctors are NOT being supportive. It's for the people who are treated like dirt. It's not for doctor's like you who allow parents to make an informed choice.

There is a big difference between saying, "It's your child, but I need to tell you I think it's unsafe" and harassing, threatening and coercing a patient into vaccinating against their will. When doctors behave like that, and they do, this is the kind of thing that is helpful to parents. EVEN IF THEY NEVER BRING IT IN it can help them build confidence, be aware of what they are being told to do and just generally show them they aren't nuts.

I personally don't think this form is as much for doctors as it is for parents. Once you see this kind of document you do start to think about the issue in a different way.

[kriket]

Originally Posted by Panserbjørne

I *really* think the point is being missed.

I personally don't think this form is as much for doctors as it is for parents. Once you see this kind of document you do start to think about the issue in a different way.

I hope so. I would understand if this is tong-in-cheek.

[aniT]

Originally Posted by kriket

I don't think thats really fair to the doctor.

He vacs people because if he didn't offer and make it sound like you had to, if you contracted the disease you would sue him for not offering the vax KWIM?

People need to be responsible for their own care with the help and guidance of the drs. Not try and blame, hold others responsible or try to corner drs into saying that they are intentionally harming you. Everything is a calculated risk, there is no right or wrong answer.

Originally Posted by doctormom

Um.

As a physician, if a patient was "insisting" that I sign that form (which uses some pretty inflammatory language) I would gently suggest that they might want to find another practice where they felt more comfortable. I'd do the same with any patient who wanted me to sign a statement that I would personally accept all liability for any possible adverse outcome they might experience under my care. I do my very best for every patient, but not everyone will have a perfect outcome...patients who expect the doctor to accept total liability for anything less than perfect health are a major medicolegal liability.

I have dozens of families in my practice who are delayed, selective, or non-vaxing, and I am strongly supportive of a parent's right to make an informed choice about vaccination. We have chosen to delay vax our own children. I'm totally on your side with regard to vaccine issues and parental rights. But if you brought me that document and demanded that I sign it, I would be sufficiently alarmed that I would be asking your family to find a new doctor.

If you don't want to sign a form such is this, then don't kick patients out of your practice becuase they choose not to vax. Don't yell at and belittle patients becuase they choose not to vax. Don't tell a patient they can research all they want but you have doing this for X years and YOU KNOW WHAT IS NEEDED. Don't pretend you are god and the patient is an idiot who should jump when you say jump. Don't give out form letters at the 2 week well baby check stating that choosing not to vax shows a lack of trust in the doctor and you should find another doctor before your child's next visit.

If you show respect to your patients, your patients will respect you. But I cannot stand this god complex that 99.9% of the doctors I have meet have. Hell when I was a teenager I had one straight up tell me I was liar in front of my mother cause he didn't believe I got pink eye from something other than sharing makeup. (Which I didn't do.. thats gross.)

This letter is designed to get doctors to realize how disrespectful it is to parents to force them to sign their rediculous, "I acknowledge I am abusing my child by not vaxing form." I see no difference between this form and that.

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by kriket

I have always been informed of procedures and if needed and feasible, been given time to research things on my own. I've never had any serious procedures that were life threatening. Just D&C, some non invasive exams for head trama, and skin problem care.

I'm really sorry that some of you have had such negative experiences with DRs. There are good DRs out there that don't do this to their patients.

I currently think I have an OB who is a good doctor. I'll wait until I've actually had my baby before I'll really believe it, though. I've never had a specialist who wasn't an arrogant...UAV. My doctors have been so cavalier that they've generated enough fear that I probably killed my last baby because I was too afraid of the "care" I'd receive to transfer when I should have.

I hear about good doctors who actually tell their patients the things those patients need to know, but, imo, they're kind of like unicorns. I'll believe in them when I actually see them for myself.

[doctormom]

Originally Posted by aniT

This letter is designed to get doctors to realize how disrespectful it is to parents to force them to sign their rediculous, "I acknowledge I am abusing my child by not vaxing form." I see no difference between this form and that.

Respectfully, I'm still not sure this document achieves your goal...assuming that you are indeed trying to build mutual respect and trust between yourself and your physician. I read it as inflammatory and antagonistic, and if you are already working with a mainstream pedi who is firmly attached to the AAP and CDC guidelines, all this is going to do is generate further conflict in the doctor-patient relationship and convince your pedi that you are a militant lunatic. (I'm not suggesting that you are, please don't misunderstand, but I think you might be erroneously perceived that way, and I don't believe that would advance you toward your goal of having a pedi who respects and listens to you.)

More flies with honey than vinegar, that's all I'm trying to say.

OP, perhaps you would consider giving your pedi a copy of The Vaccine Book by Robert Sears in lieu of handing them this form? I have gifted that book to many colleagues, and I think it can be a great way to open dialogue about the risks and benefits of vaccination, and your reasons for choosing not to follow the traditional vaccine schedule.

[aniT]

Originally Posted by doctormom

Respectfully, I'm still not sure this document achieves your goal...assuming that you are indeed trying to build mutual respect and trust between yourself and your physician. I read it as inflammatory and antagonistic, and if you are already working with a mainstream pedi who is firmly attached to the AAP and CDC guidelines, all this is going to do is generate further conflict in the doctor-patient relationship and convince your pedi that you are a militant lunatic. (I'm not suggesting that you are, please don't misunderstand, but I think you might be erroneously perceived that way, and I don't believe that would advance you toward your goal of having a pedi who respects and listens to you.)

More flies with honey than vinegar, that's all I'm trying to say.

OP, perhaps you would consider giving your pedi a copy of The Vaccine Book by Robert Sears in lieu of handing them this form? I have gifted that book to many colleagues, and I think it can be a great way to open dialogue about the risks and benefits of vaccination, and your reasons for choosing not to follow the traditional vaccine schedule.

I am sorry. I am no longer working with a mainstream doctor. The last one I went to (who I had been taking my children to for over five years) started handing out form letters to all his patients at the 2 week well baby check saying if you aren't going to vax on schedule find someone else before your next visit. How is that respectful?

I don't think anyone who finds themselves in a position where they consider giving this to the doc. has much of a choice. If it was as easy as just finding another doctor they would. But either due to finaical reasons, geographical reasons, or insurance reasons, some people are stuck with militant doctors. Do you really think you (and I don't mean YOU) don't come off as a complete militant UAV when you demand I sign a form stating I acknowledge I am abusing my child by refusing vaxes?

Why is it that parents have to tip toe around the doctor so as not to upset him but they can screw us right and left?