comparing vaccines to seat belts

[Super Glue Mommy]

I posted some information on my facebook page about the polio vaccine and vaccines in general. my uncle actually compared not vaccinating to not using a seatbelt. Now, I dont mind if he thinks vaccinating is better, but he thinks im some kind of conspiracy theorist, basing my opinions on outlandish information when a lot of my opinions are based on the numbers and studies done by the CDC themselves - I just look at the information objectively instead of blindly believing some of the comments they make that don't correlate with the numbers they provide. He is talking to me like he knows better, when he has done NO research on the subject at all. He is basing opinion solely on the fact that he was told "vaccines are safe. vaccines prevent disease". which is fine. I was that person once too. Then my dad asks me what my thoughts on elvis and area 51 are, etc. its like, okay you want to blindly believe everything you are told thats fine, but don't try to talk down to me like you think I am crazy because none of what I have said to them is based on theory, its based on numbers provided by the very people they are blindly following, and I find it ignorant they would even attempt to "debate" a subject they have done NO research on.

Had to vent. thanks.

My uncle says this:
"The economic argument also fails, as vaccines cost almost nothing to make, almost nothing to administer and save everyone billions of dollars in health care costs."

um, if they are so cheap to make then why do they cost so much to our insurances companies or personal pockets. if we get them at the health department, its tax dollars paying for them. maybe they are cheap to make but that does not reflect their cost. how does he reason they cost almost nothing to administer?

[melissabb]

Yeah, I hear you. My kids are not vaxed, homeschooled, don't see an MD but instead get chiropractic adjustments from their dad. Try living like that when his whole family are school teachers and nurses!!

I too don't like it when people argue against our choices but at the same time have done absolutely NO research. People seem to rely on the fact that someone else has done the research for them and are honest and upfront about it. Problem is everyone has a bias - everyone. The problem with our society is that we are way too quick to just believe everything we are told to be true. The true measure of an educated and free societ is , to me, one that questions the "norm" and then makes decisions based on the answers to those questions.

I think that sadly we as a society have lost our ability to think for ourselves.

My hubby and I have done much sole searching, research to come to the lifestyle choices we have adopted. I can't say this is true for any of our vaxed family members. I know for a fact that the rest of them didn't do a lick of research but instead vaxed thier kids because the all-mighty MD told them to. Sigh.

Just know you aren't alone and there will always be people like your uncle who are ignorant and think they know better. And I use the word 'ignorant' because it is one thing to do the research and still think non-vaxing is dangerous. It is another to accuse others of being irresponsible based on assumptions and third party information to come to that conclusion.

[claddaghmom]

LMAO on the "save money" comment from your uncle.

I have a different view, that came upon me last week and I can't shake it. I find it sad that our culture is simply obsessed with vaccines and vaccinating children. A mom on another forum said she decided to vax after reading about that Hib "outbreak" of 5 cases in Minnesota. That's when I asked myself:

How many people religiously vaccinate but don't:

-have an unexpired, safe carseat
-buckle their child in correctly (no loose straps)
-use safe accessories (bands/pillows) instead using the non-oem ones.
-have a carseat that fits their child's height and weight
-install the seat correctly
-drive the speed limit
-drive safely

I mean, seriously? I remember reading something like 80% of carseats are installed improperly. There's still car accidents where adults were carrying infants in their arms.

But we better vax the heck out of our kids to keep them safe.

One kid died from Hib. How many thousands died from a car accident? But those vaxxing moms don't give a second thought when they put their child into their car.

[Super Glue Mommy]

I totally agree its ignorance. Had he researched it FOR HIMSELF and actually presented a debate to me I wouldn't think so. Some people truly do research it and decide to vaccinate. While I can't understand how they came to their final decision, and they cant understand how I came to mine, I find that when both parties have actually done their own research they are able to feel more confident in their choice AND able to respect the choice another person made even if its different. Because my uncle had such a sarcastic attitude about his reply, and NO information, statistics, numbers, education on the subject whatsover it did bother me. It's fine though, im the mom

I just dont understand how someone thinks reading a little blurb that says "this vaccine is safe and effective" constitutes as researching the subject. Oh, because the CDC said so! oh okay, then it must be true...

[Super Glue Mommy]

ITA clad! or the parents who face it forward to soon!!

and oh no! 5 cases in the state!
How many cases of nueorological disorders there are each month in comparison to before they introduced the HiB vaccine. I bet more then 5. How many deaths linked to the HiB vaccine? I bet more then 5.

[angie7]

My dh would not be here today if he was wearing his seltbelt when he rolled his truck over. By not wearing it, it allowed him to lay down in the seat while his truck flipped, completely smashing the cab of the truck. Seltbelts also take lives.....

[DahliaRW]

A seatbelt when properly used has no adverse side effects from day-to-day use. Can't say the same for vaccines!

WAY more people die in car accident than die from diseases we vax for, or from vaccines for that matter. It's a dumb comparison.

[Super Glue Mommy]

You hit the nail on the head Dahlia - it was just an over reaching comparison that showed he doesnt know ANYTHING about vaccines.

[Ruthla]

Originally Posted by angie7

My dh would not be here today if he was wearing his seltbelt when he rolled his truck over. By not wearing it, it allowed him to lay down in the seat while his truck flipped, completely smashing the cab of the truck. Seltbelts also take lives.....

Yup, that's true. Seatbelts are not without risks. But statistically, more deaths and injuries are prevented by seatbelts than caused by them. They can put dummies in cars and do test crashes to replicate various kinds of collisions, on belted and unbelted dummies, compare that with actual crash data from collisions when various passengers were or wre not belted in, etc, and come up with this information. Of course, a dummy can't move independently into a safer position in the seconds before an impending collision the way a real person can, but still, seatbelt usage CAN BE and IS studied extensively.

The same can't be said for vaccines. Where's the unvaccinated control group? How can we prove any individual vaccine is safe? How can we prove it's effective? What about safety and efficacy when all these vaccines are administered around the same time?

[caro113]

Oh no, he was right to compare them to vaccines. Both are said to be and presented as being completely safe and 'necessary', when actually they can both be quite dangerous.
I'm not vaxing either, so I'm not going to try to tell you that you're argument is flawed because it's not. But I like the irony of his statement There are so many people who are injured in car accidents due to seat belts! They tighten up and can break ribs and possibly puncture a lung (due to the broken ribs) which could end up killing you, as a PP said. I agree that seat belts are not without risk (as I too was in a car accident without a seat belt, not sure if it helped or hurt tho) and I still debate about wearing them. Ugh. I'm just going to keep my daughter in a car seat forever so I never have to deal with seat belts lol

[Murihiku]

Originally Posted by DahliaRW

A seatbelt when properly used has no adverse side effects from day-to-day use. Can't say the same for vaccines!

WAY more people die in car accident than die from diseases we vax for, or from vaccines for that matter. It's a dumb comparison.

Your second statement is true (I think) and makes me wonder why there is so much angst around vaccines and so little around driving.

The first statement is arguable. Is there a "day-to-day" use re vaccines? I'm vaxed and I have no chronic (day-to-day) health conditions, so I'm not sure what you mean. I'm not sure I use my vaxed state from day to day either, since I don't think I'm exposed to VPDs every day. Are you talking about individuals re vaxes and seatbelts, or society?

OP, your uncle cannot argue very well.

[PaigeC]

vaccines are like seat belts if seat belts were made of arsenic that *may* or *may not* seep into your skin and kill you.

vaccines are like seat belts if seat belts sometimes randomly caused your car to drive into oncoming traffic. But this wouldn't be called a car accident because everyone knows seat belts CAN'T cause car accidents.

vaccines are like seat belts if seat belts had not one, but two government organizations that exist specifically to "market" and "recommend" their use.

vaccines are like seat belts if not wearing a seat belt and getting in a small fender bender caused ER staff to "assume" you have a worst case scenario and insisting on a spinal tap, MRI, tracheotomy, and a mandatory stay in the ICU.

vaccines are like seat belts if not wearing one caused people to accuse you of causing other people's cars to lose control and thus killing innocent children.

hmmm...that was fun...any more?

[Super Glue Mommy]

my son was vaxxed and has day to day health conditions now.

ruthla, that is my thinkings as well.

[Super Glue Mommy]

I dont know why I bother honestly. My dad and my uncle both base all their arguements on the ASSUMPTION that vaccines are safe and effective. And my stance is only sharing information that we should not assume vaccines are safe and effective - not even whether or not they are, or whether or not people should get them - just that we should research it. and here they are, arguing with me when they HAVENT researched it. pointless, isnt it?

[melissabb]

Originally Posted by Super Glue Mommy

I dont know why I bother honestly. My dad and my uncle both base all their arguements on the ASSUMPTION that vaccines are safe and effective. And my stance is only sharing information that we should not assume vaccines are safe and effective - not even whether or not they are, or whether or not people should get them - just that we should research it. and here they are, arguing with me when they HAVENT researched it. pointless, isnt it?

This is usually the point in the conversation that I start asking questions to them. Things like,

"Oh, yeah, so remind me again, when was the last case of polio in the US ?"

Followed by the blank stare they are sure to give...

"Oh, that's right, the WHO states it to be 1984. Silly me to forget that."

"Oh, but perhaps you know the ingredients in the DTP vaccine. Oh, what does D,T and P stand for again?"

Again followed by the blank stare....

"Oh yes, silly me, that would be Diptheria, Tetanus and Pertussis"

Then I would smile and walk away. Even in their state of sheer ignorant bliss they are sure to understand they know much less than you do.

Facetious, I know, but sometimes you just have to be that way.

[Super Glue Mommy]

^I love that approach!! I never see my family in person though (thankfully) they would probably just look up the answers lol.

I did say this though:

"have you taken the numbers and evaluated them and drawn your own conclusions? Have you read the studies of the CDC and then looked at them objectively? do you think its okay for someone writing a research paper to quote THEMSELVES 10 times? I dont know anyone else that would fly for. it's just very hard to have a debate with someone who hasn't done research on it."

I would like a list of more questions similar to these though!

[rightkindofme]

Originally Posted by Super Glue Mommy

My uncle says this:
"The economic argument also fails, as vaccines cost almost nothing to make, almost nothing to administer and save everyone billions of dollars in health care costs."

Oh really? Hm.

From: www.njvaccinationchoice.org

"A top Wyeth executive told Forbes last week that revenue from traditional prescription drugs is being outpaced by other types of products, such as vaccines and biotech drugs....For example, Prevnar, the world's No. 1 revenue-producing vaccine, is likely to be the very first to achieve $3 billion in annual revenues. This vaccine continues to be a big seller even though two former Wyeth employees continue with their lawsuit against Wyeth due to concern about the vaccine's manufacturing problems..."

It goes on. It's rather disturbing really.

[Super Glue Mommy]

here is his reply to me: (uncle)

This whole economic argument you make against vaccines is ridiculous.
What are your thoughts on fluoride being added to the drinking supply?

my response:
I don't share thoughts on things I haven't done extensive research on. We used filtered water though lol. How much time have you spent unbiasedly researching vaccines?

[Super Glue Mommy]

my uncle - yikes!!!!

"I have over 30 years of first-hand totally unbiased research. I was vaccinated against numerous diseases and, lo and behold, I don't have the diseases I was vaccinated against.
Again, the economic argument fails, every single time. It's not even close to reasonable because it can be applied to anything. This seems like a wild consipracy theory to me."

me-
"I know people who have 30 years of first hand totally unbiased EXPERIENCE (you seem to be confusing experience with research) who were not vaccinated, who lo and behold, don't have the diseases they werenT vaccinated against.
you are basing your opinion on the experience of ONE person... self? hmmm...
It's not a conspiracy theory. the information is from the CDC themselves, the people who are PROMOTING the vaccines. The information is just looked at objectively instead of all assuming.
I would love to have an educated debate on this subject, but you would first have to educate yourself on it. "

[Super Glue Mommy]

uncle:
And any time you want to argue about why lawsuits occur, I'm ready. You don't even need to educate yourself. In fact, it might be better to stay in the dark so that you can lend credence to wild theories.

me:
The comment "you dont even need to educate yourself" isn't very suiting to a person who is trying to show how educated they themselves are. An educated person would suggest others get their own education and seek out knowledge for themselves. This seems to be your motto though as the CDC you are following has the same outlook "you dont have to educate yourself about vaccines, we'll do the research for you and you can take our word for it."

frankly, I wouldn't trust insight from a person who tells me I don't even need to educate myself.