WWYD? NonVaxer having Crisis of Faith

[dinahx]

So I am rethinking my non-vax decision because I just lost a baby to m/c and have all sorts of fears from that.

My DS had DTaP at 3 months and had what I am 100% positive was the DTaP scream with that. He was given DTaP with Hib concurrently. IDK which Hib, but I *think* the DTaP was GSK, all I know is that it had no mercury but WAY too much Aluminum, as I was unaware of that issue at the time.

As far as VPDs, the only ones I think he is at real RISK from are Diptheria, Tetanus, and Hib. I know the others (like Pertussis, Measles, Mumps) are more around, but I know those will not be fatal, and IMO, the non-fatality of MMR does not justify the risk from the vax.

So today I researched Hib and unfortunately, one is combined with Diptheria tox, the other with Tetanus tox, another contains a huge amount of Aluminum (225 mcg), and the final one still contains mercury, if my facts are straight.

So WWYD? I am too scared to give DTaP again given the reaction, but Hib is looking like it is out too . . . .??? My mother suggested that I try just DT and see what happens (scary!) but is that even available in Pediatric?

Any vaxes would be around his 3 year old visit. What diseases do you consider most risky for this age group?

[Emmeline II]

(Your pm box is full.)


You may not feel this way when your son is three.

WHO GRAPH

You'd have to go back about 5 years to find 1 case of Diphtheria in the US with a population of 303,824,640. This is really a disease of really poor sanitation. If you look at the graph, India has over three thousand cases of Diptheria; unless you are going to Afganistan, Haiti, Indonesia, or Nigeria I don't see how your child is at real risk.

Tetanus cases have not been above 30 per year since '99 (I think; big chart) and there is "maybe" one child per year who contracts Tetanus.

Hib is rare in breastfed children. I lost my source, but I think there were 71 reported cases around 1997. The link at left has more information. Besides, it isn't even on the schedule after 15mo, so if you're planning on vaxing at 3yrs it's not an issue.

[grandmaofthree]

Originally Posted by dinahx

another contains a huge amount of Aluminum (225 mcg), and the final one still contains mercury, if my facts are straight.

I don't have any advice for you but I wanted to point out that the amount of aluminum that you are concerned about (225 micrograms) is comparable to the amount that is in a liter of infant formula and the half-life is just ~24 hours. Also, thimerisol is not in Hib vaccines, as far as I know. (http://www.fda.gov/cber/vaccine/thimerosal.htm#t1). Furtherore, no harmful effects of thimerisol in vaccines have been proven. Again, I don't know what you should do, but I wanted to make sure you know this since you yourself added "if my facts are straight" to your claims.

This article has tons information (and you can check the references it lists for accuracy) on thimerisol and aluminum and I believe it will addresses many of your other concerns. I think you would be interested in reading it, although I don't know if it will make your choice of what to do any easier. :\

http://pediatrics.aappublications.or...ull/112/6/1394

[PaigeC]

Originally Posted by grandmaofthree

no harmful effects of thimerisol in vaccines have been proven.

No harmful effect have been disproved either.

[grandmaofthree]

Originally Posted by PaigeC

No harmful effect have been disproved either.

That's very true. For example:

In 2004, the Institute of Medicine Immunization Safety Review committee reviewed all evidence available from biological, molecular and animal studies and stated that “The committee concludes that the evidence favors the rejection of a causal relationship between thimerisol-containing vaccines and autism...The committee cannot rule out, based upon the epidemiological evidence the possibility that vaccines contribute to autism in some small subset or very unusual circumstance, however, there is currently no evidence to support this hypothesis.” (Chatterjee et al, 2008)

How would you design a study to prove without a doubt that thimerisol in small doses was 100% safe for everyone? At least the data shows no evidence of risk associated with it. And it's not in most vaccines anymore so I guess it's barely even worth talking about nowadays. :-)

[alegna]

Originally Posted by dinahx

As far as VPDs, the only ones I think he is at real RISK from are Diptheria, Tetanus, and Hib.

Do you know the stats on diphtheria? There are basically no cases in the "industrialized" world. It is a disease of EXTREME poverty, overcrowding and malnutrition.

Tetanus is and has ALWAYS been incredibly rare. Especially in children.

Hib does not reduce the overall number of cases of meningitis. And you weren't vaxed for it- ever worry about it?



-Angela

[dinahx]

I'm not debating the harmfullness of Thimerisol mentally. The jury is in on that one, for me, and the verdict was guilty, injecting him with that is not even on the table. In fact, one major reason I consider tetanus is that the immunoglobulin I might get him in an emergency contains 25mcg/(mg?) of Hg, still.

I find it horrifying, and though I do believe mercury comes from many sources in our environment, that is no reason to inject it, IMO. I believe mercury poisoining to be a 'critical mass' issue, and I believe in the precautionary principle, so harmful effects would not have to be proven, absolute safety would have to be proven.

Also, I am not curious about whether it is a terrible horrible very bad idea to formulate vaccines with Aluminum, IMO, it is. I hope they will be taking it out soon. I won't even use Aluminim baking powder or cookware, and though I was unaware that it was in infant formula, I don't happen to use that either.

There are four varities of the Hib vaccine, one has aluminum, one has mercury, the other two are on diptheria and tetanus toxoids respectively.

Any updates on vaccine greening? I seriously appreciate all the responses. This is a hard issue to struggle with. I am pretty sure about how I feel about some things, chemically, I just don't enjoy being a mother outlaw or feeling like I would be judged, kwim?

[kiara7]

I don't have the time to find these studies right now, but here you go. Just thimerosal, for now.

Grandmaofthree, I sincerely hope you read this too.

there are three studies in the peer-reviewed literature that have examined children receiving thimerosal-containing childhood vaccines in comparison to thimerosal-free childhood vaccines administered to children as part of the routine childhood immunization schedule. These studies have shown 2- to 6- fold statistically significant increased risks for neurodevelopmental disorders and increasing dose-response effects for additional doses of mercury from thimerosal-containing childhood vaccines in comparison to thimerosal-free childhood vaccines.

2. Geier MR, Geier DA. Neurodevelopmental disorders following thimerosal-containing vaccines: a brief communication. Exp Biol Med. 2003;228:660-664.

3. Geier MR, Geier DA. Thimerosal in childhood vaccines, neurodevelopment disorders, and heart disease in the United States. J Am Phys Surg. 2003;8(1):6-11.

4. Geier DA, Geier MR. An assessment of the impact of thimerosal on childhood neurodevelopmental disorders. Pediatr Rehabil. 2003;6:97-102.

[grandmaofthree]

Originally Posted by kiara7

I don't have the time to find these studies right now, but here you go. Just thimerosal, for now.

Grandmaofthree, I sincerely hope you read this too.





2. Geier MR, Geier DA. Neurodevelopmental disorders following thimerosal-containing vaccines: a brief communication. Exp Biol Med. 2003;228:660-664.

3. Geier MR, Geier DA. Thimerosal in childhood vaccines, neurodevelopment disorders, and heart disease in the United States. J Am Phys Surg. 2003;8(1):6-11.

4. Geier DA, Geier MR. An assessment of the impact of thimerosal on childhood neurodevelopmental disorders. Pediatr Rehabil. 2003;6:97-102.

Geier's studies are flawed. It is discussed here.

http://pediatrics.aappublications.or...full/114/3/793

[Symbi]

Originally Posted by dinahx

So I am rethinking my non-vax decision because I just lost a baby to m/c and have all sorts of fears from that.

My DS had DTaP at 3 months and had what I am 100% positive was the DTaP scream with that. He was given DTaP with Hib concurrently. IDK which Hib, but I *think* the DTaP was GSK, all I know is that it had no mercury but WAY too much Aluminum, as I was unaware of that issue at the time.

As far as VPDs, the only ones I think he is at real RISK from are Diptheria, Tetanus, and Hib. I know the others (like Pertussis, Measles, Mumps) are more around, but I know those will not be fatal, and IMO, the non-fatality of MMR does not justify the risk from the vax.

So today I researched Hib and unfortunately, one is combined with Diptheria tox, the other with Tetanus tox, another contains a huge amount of Aluminum (225 mcg), and the final one still contains mercury, if my facts are straight.

So WWYD? I am too scared to give DTaP again given the reaction, but Hib is looking like it is out too . . . .??? My mother suggested that I try just DT and see what happens (scary!) but is that even available in Pediatric?

Any vaxes would be around his 3 year old visit. What diseases do you consider most risky for this age group?

According to my pediatrician (who is naturally minded and does not push vaxing) she would not give Hib (unless I really wanted it) much past 18 months. I think Dr. Sears book also says Hib is not as risky after age 2 (not positive, but I think I read that). But if you do want to get it (according to Dr. Sears), you only need one shot after 18 months old for protection. Do you have access to his book? I found it really helpful in giving the info. about what is in each vax and the different brands, etc. I believe he said the Hib vaccine is one of the "cleaner" vaccines.
In your situation DTaP would scare me too (it scares me a bit anyway). Yes, DT is available for children (it does have I believe .3 mg mercury). But it's hard to know what part of the vaccine your child reacted to. Dr. Sears doesn't like the GSK brand of the DTaP either. He says the Daptacel brand has less of the pertussis component in it and may possibly be less reactive because of that? You never know, though.
I really recommend Dr. Sears book. Not necessarily all his conclusions, but he gives good facts about the diseases and the vaccine ingredients that may help make things more clear for you. Good luck. I know this decision is hard. So sorry about your m/c too.

[Symbi]

One more thing . . . you asked which diseases would be most worrisome for age 3 and up . . .
IMO I would be concerned about tetanus. Maybe not so much yet, but in upcoming years. I know it is rare, but kids are active and we are outdoorsy and it's just not something I would ever want to have to deal with. I also am not sure I am more comfortable with the TiG shot if my child did have a risky injury than I am with him already having the shots in his system and not needing the TiG (which is a blood product and has all kinds of risks of its own). I hope I am not muddying the waters for you. I'm no expert. Just learning and asking myself a lot of the questions you are asking.
I would also consider Polio if we were to travel to areas where that could be a concern. And I would consider Measles and Chicken pox if my child reached puberty and hadn't gained any immunity yet, because I know those can be worse as an adult. Still thinking all of these things through . . .

[grandmaofthree]

i'm very sorry, i honestly thought you would be interested in reading the article i posted as it was related to your question. sorry that resulted in a little thread hijacking. it was not my intent. i apologize for posting in your thread and i'll discontinue this thimerisol discussion now. i am truly sorry this has upset you so greatly. i hope that you will get the answers you are looking for.

[claddaghmom]

Originally Posted by dinahx

So I am rethinking my non-vax decision because I just lost a baby to m/c and have all sorts of fears from that.

My DS had DTaP at 3 months and had what I am 100% positive was the DTaP scream with that. He was given DTaP with Hib concurrently. IDK which Hib, but I *think* the DTaP was GSK, all I know is that it had no mercury but WAY too much Aluminum, as I was unaware of that issue at the time.

As far as VPDs, the only ones I think he is at real RISK from are Diptheria, Tetanus, and Hib. I know the others (like Pertussis, Measles, Mumps) are more around, but I know those will not be fatal, and IMO, the non-fatality of MMR does not justify the risk from the vax.

So today I researched Hib and unfortunately, one is combined with Diptheria tox, the other with Tetanus tox, another contains a huge amount of Aluminum (225 mcg), and the final one still contains mercury, if my facts are straight.

So WWYD? I am too scared to give DTaP again given the reaction, but Hib is looking like it is out too . . . .??? My mother suggested that I try just DT and see what happens (scary!) but is that even available in Pediatric?

Any vaxes would be around his 3 year old visit. What diseases do you consider most risky for this age group?

I would avoid all vaccinations at all costs if your child had a reaction.

Allergic reactions are known to escalate after repeated exposure.

If your child had a peanut allergy, would you ever let your son near it again? The doctors would tell you not to expose him to peanuts every again.

In my experience, it took several doses of the Dtap, with escalating symptoms, before I finally had seizures and blacked out. And yet the first dose resulted only in some swelling and fever.

I would also avoid all vaccinations for any other children, especially with the ongoing research that suggests genetic factors might be affecting who reacts to a vaccine.

Diptheria is unheard in the developed world.
Tetanus is unheard of in children.
Hib has been shown to be greatly reduced by breastfeeding, is rare and the vaccine doesn't have 100% efficacy, besides there being the huge issue of serotype replacement. The hib vaccine also only protects against just that. So your child could still get meningitis.

[mountainsun]

I do not believe that Hib vax is indicated in kids over 2 anyways.

Tetanus - well, as far as I know, there is no Dt for kids until they are 7, I believe. And, g-d forbid, your lo does suffer a wound that could breed tetanus, you could get the tetanus toxoid at the time of the emergency.

I know how hard it is, mama. Whenever I start to have doubts that what I am doing is the right thing, I listen to my gut. It is usually right.

Good luck

[Emmeline II]

Originally Posted by grandmaofthree

I don't have any advice for you but I wanted to point out that the amount of aluminum that you are concerned about (225 micrograms) is comparable to the amount that is in a liter of infant formula and the half-life is just ~24 hours.

http://pediatrics.aappublications.or...ull/112/6/1394

There is a difference between ingestion and injection.

[Emmeline II]

Originally Posted by grandmaofthree

How would you design a study to prove without a doubt that thimerisol in small doses was 100% safe for everyone? At least the data shows no evidence of risk associated with it. And it's not in most vaccines anymore so I guess it's barely even worth talking about nowadays. :-)

Then go for it.

Nothing is 100% safe for everyone, hence the problem with compulsory vaccination and undue pressure form doctors, social workers, and other government agents to vaccinate.

Thimerisol is still used in the manufacture of vaccines and there is no independent verification that the amount the manufactures says is the remainder is all that is there and if that is safe for anyone let alone children whose blood/brain barrier is not finished developing.

[Marnica]

Originally Posted by grandmaofthree

Geier's studies are flawed. It is discussed here.

http://pediatrics.aappublications.or...full/114/3/793

and all of the studies that say thimerosal is safe aren't???

MOST studies are flawed and most are epidemiological studies which are notorious for being easily manipulated and corrupted by biased (on both sides). Whenever one reads a study they should look at who is funding that study...always follow the money.
Since no study can prove vaccines are safe or harmful definitively (at least not one they are willing to conduct) this arguement will go on until the end of time!
All the more reason I feel ANECDOTAL eveidence and stories of vaccine damaged children are important and relevant. Not "scientific" I know, but they should not be discounted since our "scientific" studies we rely on are usually flawed.

[kiara7]

Originally Posted by grandmaofthree

I don't have any advice for you but I wanted to point out that the amount of aluminum that you are concerned about (225 micrograms) is comparable to the amount that is in a liter of infant formula and the half-life is just ~24 hours.

To opine that the small amount of aluminum/mercury in vaccines is acceptable simply because there are so many more profound sources of aluminum/mercury in the world is absurd. To carry this logic further, my inflicting one bullet wound is excusable if there are many other people shooting at this hypothetical victim.Lead is also a naturally occurring element.

[applejuice]

Regarding crisis of faith:

I have no problem with a person who is constantly questioning their decisions and updating their information. We are all always learning as new circumstances challenge our positions. Keep it up.

[Symbi]

Originally Posted by applejuice

Regarding crisis of faith:

I have no problem with a person who is constantly questioning their decisions and updating their information. We are all always learning as new circumstances challenge out positions. Keep it up.

This is really nicely put, applejuice. I feel this way too.