I need quick comebacks for the "herd immunity" arguement - Page 5

[carriebft]

We did a thread on Hep A where we went through this in the S/D forum, I am heading out right now but I will pull it up for you with all the stuff. They were not 'pro vaccine' sources, they were simply sites with information on the disease, they had nothing to do with the vaccine if I remember correctly. If I can find it in the next 3 min I will, if not you could search using my user name and a search term of Hep A.

[Super Glue Mommy]

I would be interested in that. I will also have my husband do a website check on the website from which the information was obtained - he is usually good at figuring out who sponsers the information. they might not have been pro vaccine but they very well could have been "pro fear of diseases because we want you to get the vaccine" sources id be very interested if the information you found covers all the scenarios I just mentioned (sick versus healthy, non immune compromised versus immune compromised, children of parents without Hep A verus parents with, poverty verus not, well nourished verus malnourished, etc)

and, has been pointed out, they now try to make chicken pox sound like a super scary deadly disease. When my kids are parents, if they look up chicken pox they will probably be led to feel like its the worst thing ever, much like what they do to parents now a days with diseases like the measles.

or the infamous rotavirus vaccine - which gave both of my older two rotavirus, is a very expensive vaccine to get (though I had insurance), is relatively new, and majorly unneccessary - I believe it spreads this disease more then it prevents it, and its not a big deal, but accordind to the CDC everything is a big deal. next thing is a vaccination for runny noses.

[ema-adama]

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...&highlight=hep (carriebft's hep A thread)

I never even thought about this vaccine as an option. I am not sure I would now though. I would definitly want to understand under what conditions complications and relapses are more likely to occur.

[Super Glue Mommy]

some of that information reminds me of canker sores lol still reading though.

[Super Glue Mommy]

That was a very enlightening thread (reersonal experiences). I can see why someone who believes the vaccine works, and would be in the high risk catagory for getting it, would want that vaccine. Of course, that was how I felt before lol since the numbers are nothing new. (well, some of the numbers are new, since the vaccine is new... you know what I mean though)

I agree that I wish the pink book was referenced more. I also think, it would be great if these numbers were reflecting the questions I originally asked carrie in this thread. I felt it was just another Hep A thread... for me anyway, I've veiwed a lot of these types of discussions, but I always find the personal experiences very grounding.

I asked:

do your sources differentiate between healthy and immune compromised children? no
do your sources differentiate between well nourished and malnourished? no
do your sources differentiate between a clean health home and impoverty? no
do your sources differentiate between parents who have hep a and dont? no
do your sources differentiate between advanced societies and 3rd world countries? Id say yes, and no. there were a few sources, and I'm going to include personal experience in this since I do think that counts for something an is too often discredited.
have you seen this information broken down to make you think that a healthy, well nourished child living in an advanced society is likely to have such adverse reactions to the point the risk of the vaccine is incomparable to the risk of Hep A? I can't answer that as it was a question directed towards carrie, and perhaps she feels this can be assumed based on the information she read. Assuming the vaccine works though, and that they travel to high risk areas often I can understand her conclusions on this vaccine. It will be interesting how it plays out after this vaccination has been in circulation longer, since like other vaccines they were not properly safety tested before being used.
The definite risk you take by injecting the vaccine, versus the possible risk of the child even getting Hep A from a statistical point of view, speculation aside? I think with this particular vaccine, it is hard to effectively do this based on the lack of information provided/known.

I think getting kids checked for immunity is a good first step, and should be done before giving any vaccine.

[carriebft]

essentially you want information on the disease. Here are sources from all over about the disease which may answer your questions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hepatitis_A

thats general info obviously but many links at bottom


Here is info on an outbreak in PA:
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwR/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5247a5.htm

I believe this speaks to negate the idea you are suggesting, which is that only immune compromised, unhealthy, developing world individuals would be as risk for this disease. Since it was contacted at a restaurant, we can rule out the need to have a dirty home to get Hep A. Sanitation obviously plays its role in Hep A infection, but, when one goes out to eat, you do have to trust that the place is properly cooking food...and then you must also trust that the food, the green onions in this case, has been properly tested and handled...etcetc.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwR/preview/mmwrhtml/rr4812a1.htm

More here.

Hep A risk is high for travelers, even those who are in good health. While any disease is more of a problem for the elderly and the very young as well as the immune compromised, Hep A doesn't only hit those groups.

the questions you pose only affect the presence of Hep A; once it is present, it can infect anyone and doesn't seem to discriminate too much. So it is more of a factor in developing nations, for example, but it can enter the USA through food as it did here. Once it is present, it spreads, etcetc.



My main point is this:

I feel it is not correct for people to say that Hep A is like food poisoning, a tummy ache, or a 'mild disease' because I think that it is a matter of opinion. There are serious risks to the disease and it can relapse and take a long time to feel better. More on symptoms in these links:

http://www.emedicinehealth.com/hepat...20A%20Symptoms

Symptoms usually last less than two months, although they may last as long as nine months. About 15% of people infected with hepatitis A have symptoms that come and go for 6-9 months.

Most people with hepatitis A will feel sick for a few months before they begin to feel better

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1312659

To some that is not a great risk nor is it a big deal, to others it will be different.

I apologize if any of these links are redundant to the other thread, as I am just taking them all from my vaccine folder on this computer and its organization leaves much to be desired

[carriebft]

It should also be noted that while I feel the disease carries more risk than is often talked about here (which was my point in both posts I have made on this), I still do not do this vaccine. I simply am saying it is not characterized correctly much of the time.

[ema-adama]

Originally Posted by carriebft

I feel it is not correct for people to say that Hep A is like food poisoning, a tummy ache, or a 'mild disease' because I think that it is a matter of opinion. There are serious risks to the disease and it can relapse and take a long time to feel better. More on symptoms in these links:

Hep A can be more serious than a tummy bug in children, but mostly is not. I would be interested to see a break down on more details describing children who are likely to have serious complications. It is known to be more serious in adults. I do not think anyone has challenged that. I do not know where you would find this info. Kind of like it's hard to find more information about people who die from measles. Just because it can cause death doesn't mean every child can/will die. There are such a broad variety of influencing factors.

I got the impression that you would like to avoid ever having your DC exposed to hep A. Is that true?

[carriebft]

I will definitely keep looking around for more on this and get those sources back to you. I know I have tons and read a lot on the children and relapse issue after initially finding out about it, as it made my husband more adamant about the vax.

As far as whether or not I would like to have the kids exposed, it is definitely not something I would do on purpose. But I am thinking we will have immunity checked when we check for chicken pox immunity, since we are doing it anyway before K. Maybe we will be lucky and have gained immunity without symptoms or anything, I figure we have a chance since we have been in Central America for 4 weeks every year for the past 6 years...


also remember that I never said that it can't be a mild disease in children, I just disagreed with the statement:

This is a very mild illness for children and a serious illness for adults.

since it isn't true all of the time as far as kids go.

[ema-adama]

Originally Posted by carriebft

also remember that I never said that it can't be a mild disease in children, I just disagreed with the statement:

This is a very mild illness for children and a serious illness for adults.

since it isn't true all of the time as far as kids go.

I think you make an important point. I guess I am just curious as to which children are at risk of developing complications

In most cases of hepatitis A, the liver heals completely in a month or two with no lasting damage. Furthermore, the virus doesn't remain in your body once you've recovered. Older adults and people with other medical problems, such as congestive heart failure, diabetes and anemia, may take longer to recover and are likely to have a more serious course of the disease.

In rare cases, fulminant hepatitis — a life-threatening condition that causes liver failure — may develop. Especially at risk are people with chronic liver disease or a liver transplant.

In addition, some studies suggest that the inflammation triggered by hepatitis A may contribute to atherosclerosis — the gradual buildup of hardened deposits in your arteries.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/hep...=complications

For what it is worth.

[Super Glue Mommy]

yes ema that is that where I stand as well. I just dont think the information in put in a relative way. and I have to consider the source (CDC) when they currently make chicken pox out to be as horrible and deadly as they do. I feel like you do not understand what information it is I am interested in. I want something new - something actually convincing and researched properly. something more "broken down" not something that is just operating on the assumption of what the CDC is telling us.

In no way was I saying that only those people would be at risk, just that those people are certainly at a muich higher risk then those that are not. (well technically, that is my assumption) but they havent shown us one way or the other, and it would only be sensible to conclude that healthy individuals who are not doing things to put themselves at higher risk for the disease, and other factors I suggested are not going to be in the same risk catagory as those who are less healthy or in less ideal living conditions.

[carriebft]

I have also read sources that say 7-10 yr olds differ in symptoms dramatically from younger kids, I am looking and looking to refind this (and angry at myself for not having kept it when I first read it). This was another point that worried DH, but, again, we will hopefully just be found to be immune when we test about K time.

[Super Glue Mommy]

dont feel bad I didnt save a lot of my information either. I had to go looking for proof that the CDC admitted to congress that their studies were misleading and didnt prove anything, but I found it

[Deborah]

Thanks for the correction, Carrie.

In developing countries where Hep A is endemic, most children have had it by age 5, therefore adults are immune. For people with poor living conditions, lifelong immunity is probably a darn good thing.

I still feel that pushing this vaccine at children under the age of 5, where the risk of the disease is usually minor and not suggesting the vaccine to adults, where the risk of the disease is major, is a good example of an irrational public health policy. It makes no sense to have babies and children take a risk to protect adults. The evidence of huge danger to the little ones just isn't there.

It really is similar to forcing the chickenpox vaccine on all children because kids on steroids can die if they get chickenpox. [I'm not in favor of children on steroids dying of chickenpox.] Or any other public health policy where one group is forced to undergo treatment to protect another group.

[Super Glue Mommy]

I love reading your posts Deborah.

I agree, I don't think that it is that non-vaxxers want to put another group at risk, its a matter of why does the governtment get to decide WHICH group is at risk?