Lets talk about hell. - Page 3

[Thao]

The thing I've never been able to understand about the philosophy that Hell is a consequence of people choosing to reject God's love is... what sort of person, once they have entered the afterlife and can see clearly God's love for them, would continue to reject God?

If you believe that the choice had to be made in this life with no re-dos in the afterlife, well, that's pretty unfair as people who were born into loving Christian homes in a nation where Christianity is the norm (i.e. get lots of support for being Christian) obviously have an advantage over people born into loving Hindu homes in a nation where Hinduism is the norm (i.e. might suffer ostracism and would have to go against everything they have been taught is good and right if they become a Christian). It just ain't a level playing field.

On the other hand, if you believe that people who go to Hell are the ones that are so stiff-necked that they continue to reject God even after His existence is made clear in the afterlife... do you really believe any such person exists? A person who, when confronted with a being who loves them so much He knows every hair on their head, sent His Son to die for them, and is waiting with open arms to welcome them back (like the prodigal son story) and they are going to say, "nope, I'd rather stay here and be miserable"??? It seems to me that only an insane person would make such a choice. And if they are insane, shouldn't allowance be made for that?

So that's my gripe about the "kinder and gentler" theory of hell basically being a person's choice. Because people might make that choice in this world due to not having clear information, but I honestly can't imagine any sane person making that choice once they clearly understand that God is real and loves them.

[mammal_mama]

Originally Posted by Thao

So that's my gripe about the "kinder and gentler" theory of hell basically being a person's choice. Because people might make that choice in this world due to not having clear information, but I honestly can't imagine any sane person making that choice once they clearly understand that God is real and loves them.

That's how I see it, too, Thao. Someone recently asked me, "I know you wouldn't cast your kids into hell -- but what if one of them rejected you -- what would you do -- FORCE them to love you?" And I was, like, no, love can't be forced. But I'd be waiting with open arms to welcome her back should she ever change her mind.

And, like you, I can't imagine anyone NOT changing their mind once they really had the full picture and could totally feel God's love. So the argument that it's just the "logical consequence" of their choice just makes no sense to me. But then, I've yet to really grasp how "logical consequences" (as used in Gentle Discipline) aren't really another word for "punishment."

Still, even if some Gentle Discipline-parents do believe in using Logical Consequences, I can't imagine them saying "logical consequences" can include being punished, or living separated from parents' love, FOREVER.

[ThomasL]

To give examples of Hell being a state on mind is the case of Howard Storm who crossed over and returned. He was an Atheist and had lived somewhat of an egotistico life. whem he almost died beings tricked him into following them into what can only be descriibed as Hell. Total darkness and absolute anguish. When he refused to go any further with these beings they attacked his spirit body and it seemed like a losing battle fighting back. All of a sudden he heard a voice from within tell him to pray and when he did the creatures faded back into the darkness. At this point he was totally and completely alone in what he refered to as the sewer of the universe. He decided there was be someone good out there who loved him and he prayed to Jesus to save him. All of a sudden he noticed a tiny pin point of light the got bigger and brighter as it approached him and when he was taken up in the light anguish went away and was replaced by bliss. He has a best seller book called My Descent Into Death which tells his whole experience. There are other cases of Hell like experiences that turned positive once the experiencer called out for help. In the Tibetan Book Of The Dead which predates Cristianity there is an early stage of death known as Bardo in which the dying person may see a Hell of illusion but once the consciouness expands to a higher level it all changes and experiences the Light. A person can indeed create their own Hell but God certainly did not creat it in my opinion. Perfection in my opinion would never creat anything bad even for the worst sinners. There is only natural consequences but that is not punishment. We simply reap what we sow through by experiencing what we caused others to experience. That is not Hell.

[Devaskyla]

At any rate, I'm one of the "others," so the Biblical hell doesn't apply to me.

I love that. It's interesting to me how few religious people seem to realize that there's more than one creation story in the bible (& more than one account of jesus' birth, most of which have no or few of the more supernatural elements)

[Bluegoat]

Originally Posted by Thao

The thing I've never been able to understand about the philosophy that Hell is a consequence of people choosing to reject God's love is... what sort of person, once they have entered the afterlife and can see clearly God's love for them, would continue to reject God?

If you believe that the choice had to be made in this life with no re-dos in the afterlife, well, that's pretty unfair as people who were born into loving Christian homes in a nation where Christianity is the norm (i.e. get lots of support for being Christian) obviously have an advantage over people born into loving Hindu homes in a nation where Hinduism is the norm (i.e. might suffer ostracism and would have to go against everything they have been taught is good and right if they become a Christian). It just ain't a level playing field.

On the other hand, if you believe that people who go to Hell are the ones that are so stiff-necked that they continue to reject God even after His existence is made clear in the afterlife... do you really believe any such person exists? A person who, when confronted with a being who loves them so much He knows every hair on their head, sent His Son to die for them, and is waiting with open arms to welcome them back (like the prodigal son story) and they are going to say, "nope, I'd rather stay here and be miserable"??? It seems to me that only an insane person would make such a choice. And if they are insane, shouldn't allowance be made for that?

So that's my gripe about the "kinder and gentler" theory of hell basically being a person's choice. Because people might make that choice in this world due to not having clear information, but I honestly can't imagine any sane person making that choice once they clearly understand that God is real and loves them.

I think that my answer to this is that I am quite sure that God would be perfectly fair in his judgment. So that guy born in the horrible place that did horrible things. Well, God knows what is in his heart, what he would have done had he better advantages, even better than the individual himself. So I think that is taken into account. What God is really interested in is those times that a person chose, chose truth and good (as far as he could perceive it) or chose what he thought was evil and self-centered. I also think God is interested in hope - does a person hope for a kind of union with God, even if it doesn't seem possible, or does he just say there is no possibility of union, or no possibility of God, thereby putting human limits on God's nature.

As for those people who now see clearly - I'm not sure, but I think the people in Hell may not have seen God clearly, for the most part (that would probably have negated their free will) but did they see evil clearly? Did they see that they were choosing lies and not truth, and do it anyway? I think there is a way in which the choices we make start to constitute who we are, and what we are. If we consistently choose to do things we know are wrong, we become a certain kind of person, a certain kind of being; one who rejects what he knows to be true. Which is a strange idea, like saying "that apple I see isn't there, dark is light, I am an octopus." It's a kind of denial of reality, a bit black-hole-ish, trying to suck being into not-being.

I wouldn't claim that there are a lot of people in Hell, my experience has been while everyone does this some times, most people try to do what they think is right. But I do think it's possible to choose evil; after all, the fallen angels had a perfect veiw of God and chose not-God anyway - and existing outside of time had no opportunity to change their minds, it was an eternal decision. But perhaps if they really knew the full meaning of that decision, that is appropriate.

I'm not sure that Hell is a place any more than Heaven is - that is just a human way of talking - it's pretty clear that God is immaterial and couldn't be in a place.

I also don't think souls can be annihilated - I think the rational soul is eternal, because that rational principle is eternal. I wonder though, since the people in Hell never get their bodies back, if they aren't stripped of the parts of their soul that are related to the body. That's not a Christian position though, I don't think - just my own thought.

[transformed]

I don't belive in "Hell."

I belive we can create our own seperation from God and that feels like "Hell"

Kind of like the movie "What Dreams May Come." Except I think its all on the earth andd once we die we are all reconnected to "God" (Or universal energy.)

[Thao]

As for those people who now see clearly - I'm not sure, but I think the people in Hell may not have seen God clearly, for the most part (that would probably have negated their free will) but did they see evil clearly? Did they see that they were choosing lies and not truth, and do it anyway? I think there is a way in which the choices we make start to constitute who we are, and what we are. If we consistently choose to do things we know are wrong, we become a certain kind of person, a certain kind of being; one who rejects what he knows to be true. Which is a strange idea, like saying "that apple I see isn't there, dark is light, I am an octopus." It's a kind of denial of reality, a bit black-hole-ish, trying to suck being into not-being.

Boy, I dunno. I get what you are saying, but the devil is in the details. Is there really anyone out there (besides Lucifer and his angels) that would do this? When I try to think of the most evil people I can imagine, I come up with images of Talibani soldiers burning girl's schools and stoning women... but chances are most of them genuinely believe that what they are doing is for the good of the girls and the community, I doubt they think it is wrong. Or their conscience bothers them, but they are too afraid to go against the flow because it could get them killed. Maybe Hitler and Stalin were pure evil, I don't know. It's also possible they were mentally ill (personality disorder, delusions of grandeur, schizophrenia, something along those lines) in which case can they be held responsible?

There are so many factors that weigh into why people make the choices they do. But it's all speculation. Neither of us can possibly know, right?

[lil_earthmomma]

I believe that upon our death Christ gives us the ultimate choice to bow before him and believe. I do not worry about my muslim friends, buddist friends etc. because not only is that very disrespectful of their beliefs, but also because I am not the judge.

I'm one of those naughty christians that has faith that God knows our hearts and doesn't expect a fudamentalist prayer to be spoken to gain entrance into heaven.

It's something I've struggled with a lot in my life. I do not want my children to fear hell for themselves and their friends the way I did.

[Bluegoat]

Originally Posted by Thao

Boy, I dunno. I get what you are saying, but the devil is in the details. Is there really anyone out there (besides Lucifer and his angels) that would do this? When I try to think of the most evil people I can imagine, I come up with images of Talibani soldiers burning girl's schools and stoning women... but chances are most of them genuinely believe that what they are doing is for the good of the girls and the community, I doubt they think it is wrong. Or their conscience bothers them, but they are too afraid to go against the flow because it could get them killed. Maybe Hitler and Stalin were pure evil, I don't know. It's also possible they were mentally ill (personality disorder, delusions of grandeur, schizophrenia, something along those lines) in which case can they be held responsible?

There are so many factors that weigh into why people make the choices they do. But it's all speculation. Neither of us can possibly know, right?

It may be a difference in experience I guess - I know that I personally have decided to do something I knew was morally wrong, because I wanted to. It didn't involve murder or torture, but it was certainly very deliberate.

As an example to pull out of my hat - gang violence. There are gangs where to get in you have to just go out and kill someone - not someone specific, anyone. It seems to me that it is set up specifically so the murder is someone who doesn't deserve to be killed, and I think in most cases the people involved know that. Sure, some might be really damaged people or ill, but I don't think that is the case for all or maybe even most.

I agree that we can't know - sometimes it is impossible to know if we made our own choices for good reasons or not (do I need that piece of cake because I am still hungry, or am I crossing the line into gluttony with this one bite?)

I wouldn't be surprised that many people find that things they blamed themselves for, God doesn't blame them for at all.

[genifer]

Boy, I dunno. I get what you are saying, but the devil is in the details. Is there really anyone out there (besides Lucifer and his angels) that would do this? When I try to think of the most evil people I can imagine, I come up with images of Talibani soldiers burning girl's schools and stoning women... but chances are most of them genuinely believe that what they are doing is for the good of the girls and the community, I doubt they think it is wrong. Or their conscience bothers them, but they are too afraid to go against the flow because it could get them killed. Maybe Hitler and Stalin were pure evil, I don't know. It's also possible they were mentally ill (personality disorder, delusions of grandeur, schizophrenia, something along those lines) in which case can they be held responsible?

There are so many factors that weigh into why people make the choices they do. But it's all speculation. Neither of us can possibly know, right?

I personally do think there are people like that out there. Just for an example... Lets say Hitler was mentally ill, or Stalin or Mugabe, or whoever. What about those who followed them, those who approved of thier dealings and wrongdoings and did nothing about it because they wanted to save their own necks... I mean really, these people, supposedly mentally ill, you say, really what power do they hold if they are just crazy? How does a crazy person hold such power and sway over an entire nation. And then to go on and continue denying you did anything wrong... it wasnt just Hitler (or Stalin, or Mugabe or a talibani soldier) you know, it was a whole regime, a whole hoard of people who approved of Hitler and what he did and stood for... Im just using Hitler as an example, there is a multitude of examples we could draw from to make this point. Is everyone who follows these men, who approve of what they do, mentally ill as well, the whole nazi party? Or afraid to stand up for what is right? And being afraid to stand up for what is right, is that a good excuse to do nothing... or worse to obey and commit these typse of atrocities? What is your life worth is you arent willing to stand up for what is right? Is being afraid a good enough excuse when so many are being wronged, murdered, gassed, beaten? Or do they choose to approve of what is wrong... And in choosing to 'go with the flow, bc it keeps my neck safe'... is that right in itself or can it possibly be wrong? Now, I can see a point if you were talking about child soldiers, who are kidnapped, drugged, and told they have no choice... But that is evil done to them... They are the oppressed and wronged.. they are out of their minds bc of the, Ill just say it, Evil men forcing them to be child soldiers... These are the extreme examples, but so what, there are these things happening every single day... in other parts of the world... there are everyday little examples I could draw from too. Calling light darkness, denying that something is wrong, sometimes means we choose not to see it, its a choice. Is there a black and white here? I believe there is... I also believe that it can be, in some cases, very difficult for us to judge from where we are standing, in other cases, well I dont know, its obvious to me. I believe we can make choices to become the kind of person God created us to be... to me that involves being in communication with Him to know what kind of person he created me to be. To not be in communication with him would leave a lot open to speculation, a lot of guess work, a lot of assuming I know a lot about what is good... when I dont, as if I can pull something out of nothing, some kind of goodness out of me, when really, there is none to begin with. IME, it is only God who knows what is good, and therefore it is only Him who can teach me, step by step, not ever going to get it right this side... no chance of that happening (thats what sin is, we never fully are set free from it this side of eternity, thats another thread tho...). Ive learned that a lot of what we speculate as to what is good... we just havent got a clue... Speaking in general here, some might find that offensive, I dont know. I also believe, along the lines of what Ive already stated that it is ONLY God who can mould us and shape us into a Good person. We take a lot of pride in thinking we are a 'good person' but what is a good person, without the knowledge of the Creator, how do we know. Which, in turn, isnt just about reading scripture, memorising it and whatnot. Its about really knowing Him whose likeness we are to become. Moving further away from that place called Hell and closer to that place where we want to be going. We could go on about people who really believe they are doing good when what they are doing is clearly wrong... that is almost a perfect example of someone who is...dare I say it... blinded to what is truely good? Someone who thinks such evil things can possibly be good? Could that be a person who has gone too far and their entire thinking has become darkened... not just confused... but downright evil in their thinking? There are countless other stories of people who have been punished (quite severely) for standing up and against such things, Christian and non-christian, people of all faiths, I think it takes a whole lot of humility to be able to admit that we dont know even the tiniest bit about what Good is. And conversely it take a really big ego to assume that one does...

Now, what do I believe about hell? I dont know exactly. Im just being honest. I know it is real, in whatever form it is, be it spiritual, a state of mind, or an actual physical place. I dont know. I dont know if it was created as a place to torture those who reject God or who are 'evil' or if it is just a place where there is complete seperation from God, bc to me that would be a bad enough situation. It sometimes sounds like a place where there is no truth, no light, enlightenment, confusion, depression, no hope. And for what its worth... Im kind of sort of in the mind of a pp who said

I'm one of those naughty christians that has faith that God knows our hearts and doesn't expect a fudamentalist prayer to be spoken to gain entrance into heaven.

God is so much bigger then that anyway, and if he were a God who didnt take into account everything, he wouldnt be a merciful God, and I believe in a merciful God, he is perfectly Just and perfectly Merciful... That I believe to be a fact.

what sort of person, once they have entered the afterlife and can see clearly God's love for them, would continue to reject God?

The sort of person who hated God... What if they simply didnt like being loved by God, I dont see how that is not a possibility... its about rebellion, willful rebellion. Because when we face God we see what our hearts are made of... really what is in the depths of our hearts, the stuff that even we dont know about... until it is revealed to us by the One who can see everything, that requires a choice, to let him reveal it to us, and to accept his verdict about us, however ugly that is... Not saying this bc I learned it in a church, or the church, or a bible study... Im talking about myself here if I can be honest. Its what Ive learned about myself.

[genifer]

Oh yeah... what was said here...

Is there really anyone out there (besides Lucifer and his angels) that would do this?

Im going to assume, possibly wrongly, that you mean to say that Lucifer and his angels are real... not saying you are saying you believe this but for arguments sake Ill respond like this... If Lucifer and his angels could stand in the presence of the Almighty... and still reject him, and choose to go their own way, what makes it so difficult to believe that a human wouldnt do the same? Lucifer and his angels were in God's presence day and night, in other words had access to God's presence anytime, all the time. If they could behold His glory and I mean, power and still choose to uuum reject him to put it mildly (rebel against Him is a better way of putting it), why is it so hard to believe a human wouldnt do the same when it comes time for them to face God?

[sweetsunshine85]

The way I was taught was that hell is an absense of God's presence for eternity. Yes, there is fire, but the biggest suffering is not having God present, being hated by God. I also learned that whatever our biggest fault or main sin was will torment us through eternity.

[transformed]

Originally Posted by sweetsunshine85

being hated by God.

wow. that makes me sad that anyone thinks God could hate us.

[Bluegoat]

As an interesting literary aside:

In the Divine Comedy, this is what Dante has written over the gates of Hell;

THROUGH ME THE WAY INTO THE SUFFERING CITY,
THROUGH ME THE WAY TO THE ETERNAL PAIN,
THROUGH ME THE WAY THAT RUNS AMONG THE LOST.
JUSTICE URGED ON MY HIGH ARTIFICER;
MY MAKER WAS DIVINE AUTHORITY, THE HIGHEST WISDOM, AND THE PRIMAL LOVE.
BEFORE ME NOTHING BUT ETERNAL THINGS WERE MADE, AND I ENDURE ETERNALLY.
ABANDON ALL HOPE, YE WHO ENTER HERE.

So, according to Dante's artistic vision, Hell was created by Love, and it's substance is the loss of Hope. Certainly, when he puts pagans in Heaven, they are there because they do have Hope.

[Thao]

As an example to pull out of my hat - gang violence. There are gangs where to get in you have to just go out and kill someone - not someone specific, anyone. It seems to me that it is set up specifically so the murder is someone who doesn't deserve to be killed, and I think in most cases the people involved know that. Sure, some might be really damaged people or ill, but I don't think that is the case for all or maybe even most.

Well, to play devil's advocate (pun intended ), why do those young men want to join the gang? Is it because they grew up in an atmosphere of violence, their dad beating their mom, their mom hooked on drugs? Were they taught as children that it's a dog eat dog world, every man for himself, and there is no point in having compassion for others? Or maybe they were rich white kids who were taught that they are the center of the universe and so never learned to think of others? Etc etc (cue bleeding heart violin here...)

See, this is what I don't get: we on this board, being mainly AP parents, generally hold the belief that children are innocent and when they do wrong they need to be taught, not punished. We recognize that there are REASONS why a kid might choose to do bad things. We firmly believe that if we raise our children with love and compassion they will, unless they encounter some sort of mental issues, likely grow up to be loving, compassionate people.

But suddenly when a kid turns 18, it's like that understanding of cause and effect disappears. Suddenly their actions are a choice, pure and simple, and if they choose to do bad things then they are evil.

Now, I know that from a legal standpoint we need to have that line between a juvenile who presumably is not mentally mature enough to understand their actions and an adult who presumably is mentally mature enough to understand their actions. However I think it should be kept in mind that drawing the line at 18 is pretty arbitrary, it's based on statistical groups and does not necessarily apply to each individual. I'm sure we all know little kids that display maturity beyond their years, and likewise I would say that the young men who choose to murder a stranger to be admitted to a "family" likely are pretty retarded in their maturity.

To me, being an evil person who deserves hell implies a person who chooses to do bad things simply out of the desire to do bad. But generally when people choose to do bad things, there are a plethora of other reasons, both conscious and unconscious, that are involved in that choice, the vast majority wouldn't say "I did it because I wanted to do evil" (and for the few who do say that, we would call them insane).

To be clear: I don't deny that evil exists, or that people do evil things. But I question how responsible people are for their evil acts. Again, from a legal standpoint, we have to hold people responsible from age 18 on because we humans are not sufficiently omnipotent to understand all of the millions of causes -- genetic, biological, nurture, experiences, etc etc -- that contributed to the choice to do evil. But God IS omnipotent and can see all of those causes.

[Thao]

I mean really, these people, supposedly mentally ill, you say, really what power do they hold if they are just crazy? How does a crazy person hold such power and sway over an entire nation. And then to go on and continue denying you did anything wrong... it wasnt just Hitler (or Stalin, or Mugabe or a talibani soldier) you know, it was a whole regime, a whole hoard of people who approved of Hitler and what he did and stood for... Im just using Hitler as an example, there is a multitude of examples we could draw from to make this point. Is everyone who follows these men, who approve of what they do, mentally ill as well, the whole nazi party? Or afraid to stand up for what is right? And being afraid to stand up for what is right, is that a good excuse to do nothing... or worse to obey and commit these typse of atrocities? What is your life worth is you arent willing to stand up for what is right? Is being afraid a good enough excuse when so many are being wronged, murdered, gassed, beaten? Or do they choose to approve of what is wrong... And in choosing to 'go with the flow, bc it keeps my neck safe'... is that right in itself or can it possibly be wrong?

Of course it is wrong. It is also heartbreakingly human, what happened in Hitler-era Germany proves that. I dare say that if God condemned to hell every person who failed to speak up against evil in order to preserve their life (and the lives of their children, quite possibly) then most of the human race would be in hell. I mean, is it reasonable to think that the vast majority of Germans were evil while the vast majority of Americans were good during that time? Or is it more reasonable to postulate that we are all humans, with equal parts evil and good in our natures, but the Germans were placed in a situation where they had to make a choice and self-preservation combined with a herd mentality cause the vast majority to choose evil? Do you think that if Americans were placed in a similar situation, we would act differently? If so, what makes Germans different from Americans?

The sort of person who hated God... What if they simply didnt like being loved by God, I dont see how that is not a possibility... its about rebellion, willful rebellion.

OK, I can understand rebellion against parents who are, after all, fallible and probably screwed up here and there... not to mention kids usually rebel during puberty when there is a biological need to separate from parents and establish their own identity... but rebelling against a perfect God, who loves us perfectly, when there is no biological need to do so? No, honestly I can't consider that a possibility. To say so is to say that there are human beings that do not want to be loved. If someone was so screwed up that they did not want to be loved, which is such a basic human need, I do think we would call them crazy.

For the record, I did believe the whole "willful rebellion" thing for years when I was a Christian, but when I started trying to apply it to real people that I knew (as opposed to it being just a theory) I found I could not find a single person who was not a Christian because of willful rebellion. There are lots of reasons why people (including me) are not Christians or don't believe in God. Willful rebellion isn't one of them. I do know that a lot of Christians talk about their past willful rebellion in their testimonies, but obviously they believed in God all along and so were rebelling against their own beliefs, if that makes sense. It is different if you don't believe, as you can't rebel against something you don't believe in. To say that non-Christians are "willfully rebelling" implies that deep down in their heart they really know that God exists but don't want to admit it. But this just doesn't play out in reality. In my experience, people who do not believe in God are not rebelling, they simply don't believe.

[Bluegoat]

Originally Posted by Thao

For the record, I did believe the whole "willful rebellion" thing for years when I was a Christian, but when I started trying to apply it to real people that I knew (as opposed to it being just a theory) I found I could not find a single person who was not a Christian because of willful rebellion. There are lots of reasons why people (including me) are not Christians or don't believe in God. Willful rebellion wasn't one of them. I do know that a lot of Christians talk about willful rebellion in their testimonies, but obviously they believed in God all along and so were rebelling against their own beliefs, if that makes sense. For the many people who do not believe in God, they are not rebelling, they simply don't believe.

I don't see this as particularly applying to Christians or non-Christians, so I guess that is not an issue to me. Both would be culpable for commiting evil acts they thought were wrong.

Originally Posted by Thao

Well, to play devil's advocate (pun intended ), why do those young men want to join the gang? Is it because they grew up in an atmosphere of violence, their dad beating their mom, their mom hooked on drugs? Were they taught as children that it's a dog eat dog world, every man for himself, and there is no point in having compassion for others? Or maybe they were rich white kids who were taught that they are the center of the universe and so never learned to think of others? Etc etc (cue bleeding heart violin here...)

See, this is what I don't get: we on this board, being mainly AP parents, generally hold the belief that children are innocent and when they do wrong they need to be taught, not punished. We recognize that there are REASONS why a kid might choose to do bad things. We firmly believe that if we raise our children with love and compassion they will, unless they encounter some sort of mental issues, likely grow up to be loving, compassionate people.


To me, being an evil person who deserves hell implies a person who chooses to do bad things simply out of the desire to do bad. But generally when people choose to do bad things, there are a plethora of other reasons, both conscious and unconscious, that are involved in that choice, the vast majority wouldn't say "I did it because I wanted to do evil" (and for the few who do say that, we would call them insane).

Ah, well, I guess I don't think that is the case. Is the guy in a gang because he thinks it is the "right" thing to do? If so, that is not actually the same as committing an evil act, nor if he is unable to understand for some biological reason, or because of his upbringing.

But the point of my example was that the murder of an innocent victim is done - because - there is no reason for it. And unless there is mental impediment, I think that the person likely realizes it at some level.

St Augustine gives an example of this from his own youth - he and his friends, a bit of a gang - liked to climb a wall and take pears from an orchard. It wasn't because they were starving, and they knew the pears belonged to someone else. They knew they had no right to the pears. In fact, the reason for doing it, the enjoyment, came from doing what was known to be forbidden and wrong, and especially, doing it with his friends. It was a way of setting the self, and the group, up as higher than law or common morality. But it was only in recognizing that morality that such a thing was possible. What is more, they wouldn't have been happy about others doing the same to them.

In the case I mentioned, it's the same. The test is to do something that is known to be wrong and illegal, and to accept only the word of the group. And I am sure no one wants to be randomly murdered. At some level, the person knows that they are committing an evil act, which is why it is being committed.

I don't think people, or kids, are innocent. They do things in full knowledge that it is wrong, sometimes because they can't stop themselves, but other times willingly. I don't actually think I have met anyone that this doesn't apply to, though generally not so spectacularly.

As far as extenuating circumstances, I am sure God considers them, and no one gets taken to task because their mother beat them.

As an aside, while I understand not speaking out out of fear, and this happened in a graphic and horrible way to my husband, I do think it is a type of evil. I am sure he'd agree, despite being the guy who didn't say anything.

[Thao]

Right, I think I agree with everything you've said. I'm not denying that people realize that things are bad when they do them. Like you, I've done some things that were bad, sometimes simply for the thrill of it like the story about St. Augustine. I'm just saying that "being bad" isn't the primary reason for doing the bad things. In the case of the young thugs, sure they know it is bad and they wouldn't want that done to them, but their desire to be included in a family of sorts is much stronger than their repugnance at doing something bad. So they wouldn't say, "I killed that guy because I like doing bad things", they would say "I killed that guy because I really want the gang to accept me and anyway I don't care about that guy".

If I'm understanding correctly, you are saying that the key thing that makes someone worthy of hell is repeated choices to do bad, knowing it is bad. The problem is, that doesn't take into account all of the factors that put them in that place where the choice had to be made. Those German citizens who worked in and around the concentrations camps made daily choices to do and condone horrible things, but does that mean that they were more evil than we? Or simply that we have never been in a position where we had to make those choices? Please understand that I am not saying it is okay to condone evil out of fear, I agree with you that it is an evil in and of itself... but rather that it isn't necessarily an indicator of how "good" or "evil" the person is that made that choice. 'Cause if it was I could say that I am "good" and your husband is "evil" (if I understood your post correctly, that he was in that position)--but that is obviously absurd because I have never been in that position so who's to say I wouldn't have done the same thing your husband did? Do you see what I mean?

I believe that the vast majority of people (not counting a few really remarkably brave people) have the capacity to and will choose evil under certain circumstances. You know, "there but for the grace of God go I..." So the line between "good" and "evil" in so many cases seems to be more a function of circumstances rather than innate qualities.

And you have said that God will take the circumstances into account, but where then is the line between heaven and hell? Is it a numerical thing, i.e. we all get forgiven a certain number of choices to do bad but if we make one too many we are damned? Or does it depend on the nature of the circumstances i.e. if we do it for the illicit thrill it gives us, like the example of St. Augustine stealing apples, we would not be forgiven but if we do it for a more "serious" reason, say we are trying to save the lives of our children, we will be forgiven? But even that is dependent on so many other circumstances, for example a person born with genes that predispose him/her to thrill-seeking is going to be much more likely to make the first sort of choice, right? And does God take into account the choices we never had to make (like the German citizens during WWII, because we were never in that situation) but He knows we would have chosen badly if we had been in the situation?

See, I get the theory, but everytime I try to imagine how it works in a concrete way I end up with my head spinning. :

[ThomasL]

Originally Posted by sweetsunshine85

The way I was taught was that hell is an absense of God's presence for eternity. Yes, there is fire, but the biggest suffering is not having God present, being hated by God. I also learned that whatever our biggest fault or main sin was will torment us through eternity.

From what I learned based on people's experiences is in God there is no hate. Where God lives only unconditional love exists. Hate is nothing more than a passion of the human mind. As for Hell as I stated before it was created by the human mind and not by God. If someone finds themselve in a Hell of their creation all they have to do is choose not to be there or rather Get The Hell Out.

[beansmama]

Originally Posted by Adele_Mommy

Here is my view:

There is no hell. It is a concept created by humans to control people through fear, and to satisfy a human need for a particular idea of justice that is really just rationalized vengeance.