Did you hold your boy back from Kindergarten for a year? - Page 4

[latinmom]

I guess I am the one with the older child who was held back, and the younger ones who were not! So get ready to flame me! My DD was, and at 21, she is a year older than everyone else at her college. She long since "caught up", and is so ready to be out. We held her back for learning issues (she is severely dyslexic), but I am not sure now I would do this, knowing what I now do about interventions and special ed. OP, I am interested in what grade your husband teaches. I have taught HS for over 20 years, and I do NOT believe in red shirting. I have seen too many 19 and 20 year old seniors who should be out of school already. My sons entered school on time, and while small, are doing quite well with the 10 year olds in the 3rd grade (yes, you read that right). We live in a very wealthy town, where red shirting is very common.

I feel the same as the PPs who have noted that this is a very child specific issue, and that gender, while a factor, is not the only factor. My sons are easily more verbal than most of the girls in their grade. They read well, love to play gently and roughly, and have friends of both sexes.

Most of the educational research, BTW, is against red shirting, and for more aggressive intervention for specific learning issues. I have read most of it over the years, and the results seem to be the same-holding a child back may seem to work in the short term, but it doesn't help in the long term. Either they still lag behind, or they catch up and are bored. As we have noted so often on the homeschooling section of this site, schools are reluctant to change a child's placement once they have begun school, so that is seldom possible.

Sorry for the length!!

[Literate]

Originally Posted by eepster

School districts are in favor of red shirting. When the NCLB testing comes up if they have older kids taking the test the district scores better and gets more funding.

Well, you'd never believe it from where I'm standing. My dd2 is a late June birthday with profound apraxia and I'm fighting to hold her back this coming year. "We like to see everyone start on time." Total BS.

[snowmom5]

A few thoughts to chew on... First, an article:
http://naecs.crc.uiuc.edu/position/trends2000.html

Second, keep in mind that for some kids, who may be academically ready but thought to be immature, academic red-shirting may be the beginning of the slow road to underachievement. As one of my favorite websites explains,

When...children are not given opportunities to work at their own level and pace, they settle for less than their best. They learn to slide by without stretching themselves. Patterns of underachievement are subtle and cumulative; they become harder to overcome with each year. Students who attain A’s on their papers with no effort are not prepared to take more challenging classes in high school and college. When work is too easy, self-confidence to attempt difficult tasks is steadily eroded.

This is kind of the other side of a coin - why being top in the class might not be such a great thing, especially if it's too easy.

Third: where we live, kindergarten takes all children at the stage they are in academically. Some start barely knowing the alphabet, without sounds. Others start reading already. And therein lies the challenge of the kindergarten teacher. I know of at least one boy who was red-shirted for "immaturity", and two years later, from what his mother tells me, it sounds like he really belongs with his age-mates, both socially and academically (or perhaps even ahead of that), but now he's stuck.

Fourth: as long as the current system remains, with single-grade level classrooms, there is always going to be someone who is the youngest. If everyone red-shirts their summer b-day kids, then the spring ones become the youngest, and so on.

I have four boys, two in K at the moment - one with special needs (speech and OT) - and outsiders might have made a good argument for holding him back because of how he seems "socially" (he's very introverted) (not to mention that he's small, was a premie), but he's nonetheless bright so it made no sense. What made sense was to get him the support he needs for his issues and let him take his strengths as far as they can go. So far the year has been great - with some great special ed services, he can sound out words and he has an enormous sight word vocabulary. He can read Go Dog Go, among other things (a year ago I would have thought that was impossible! This is a kid who had no words until after turning 3 and who will still qualify for speech services next year in first grade), and he's always been great with math (I think he's quite the right-brained, visual-spatial learner, for whom traditional education was not designed, but that's a story for another day). I have a pretty hard time imagining any argument for holding back my younger ones, who are still years away from K.

I guess my bottom line opinion is that if there is really an issue with "maturity" in kindergarten (isn't that an oxymoron), then the issue is more with the educational system than with the children.

Ultimately, I wish the traditional system would be scrapped, or altered, such that there were more flexibility regarding age, in both directions. I really like multi-age classrooms (confession: my kids are in a montessori school, with preschool and K kids in the same classroom, though the preschool kids go home before lunch and the K kids stay). Just my two cents....

[lisac77]

We sent our June boy on time. He is now in his 3rd quarter of Kindergarten.

He started K with very few academic skills. Apparently his ultra-expensive Pre-K taught him absolutely nothing.

There is most definitely an age divide in his classroom. If I read the birthday board right he is the 2nd youngest child in his class.

He is currently working slightly below grade level compared to the other kids.

HOWEVER, I just had a meeting with his teacher a couple of weeks ago and she is very pleased with his progress. She said that he is a strong student, he applies himself, and that he is picking up skills quickly. On his report card he has very high marks in all of is social and behavioral categories.

Up until this point I had been focusing on academics and doing a lot of hand-wringing because he is "behind." But what is he gaining from this experience? Learning challenging material. Accepting academic challenges. Learning that applying himself to his studies gives positive results. Learning to get along with his peers and his teachers. Etc., etc., etc.

I was so sure that he was in danger of being held back, but his teacher said that there is no way he will be held back, because he is developing the academic skills to do the work, and that is SO important.

I am continuing to work at home with him on his growth areas (handwriting and phonetic awareness) and we will be continuing this throughout the summer to help him bridge the gap a bit, but overall I think he has had a very positive year.

[Hanbonem]

Wow, OP here. This has turned into a great conversation.

DS is one of the tallest in his class already and certainly bright enough to move forward. Socially he has a bunch of friends in his class and has no shortage of confidence. Again, we were just concerned about the whole silly thing and some of the fine motor skills. Motor skills is influenced I think by him being a leftie.

One of my deciders (because we think we'll at least move him on to kindie and then repeat if necessary) is that if he were to stay in the preschool he's in he'd have the kids of two of our friends in the class with him. That would be good because they know each other and would all be friends, but he's always been so much bigger and just ahead of those two. I can't imagine him being happy in a whole class of kids that were that much younger and less physical than he is. He tends to gravitate towards older kids.

We'll talk to his preK teacher before the end of the year. She's in favor of his going but acknowledges his space and attention to projects issues. My husband will be home with him for the summer and can work more on getting our little leftie to enjoy cutting, coloring, and writing his name.

[Pynki]

Our oldest has a birthday exactly two weeks from the cut off here in IOwa. Everyone was surprised we sent him right before he turned 5. But he was ready. He was a little emotionally immature, but it isn't as big of a problem as his intellectual bordem would have been if we had kept him out for an additional year. I was the oldest in my class and SO very board. My husband was the youngest in his class, and while as he got older the classes were LESS challenging, he managed to graduate from the U with an Engineering degree in 3 years. It's usually a 5 yr program. We were able to buy our first house before we were 25 because of this jump start.

Neither of us gave more than a few minutes of consideration to keeping DS1 out of kindy just because he would be the youngest.

We valued his intellectual level and need for stimulation above his small stature and slight emotional immaturity.

Originally Posted by honolula

I'm a little sad that this is considered a gender issue. I realize that girls and boys often develop differently, but ALL children develop differently. Isn't that why we guide our children as individuals?

I couldn't agree with you more.

Originally Posted by Evan&Anna's_Mom

Yes, but K curriculum, expectations and classroom norms have changed completely since you went to school (unless you're 15 or something). Judging from what adults experienced as children is not the same and school children now. K is very, very different from when I was a child.

I have a kindergartener as well as a 3rd grader and a 5th grader. Kindergarten hasn't change that much since I was in school almost 30 years ago.

Originally Posted by Evan&Anna's_Mom

May depend on where you are and what you are comparing it to. K when I was a child (late 60s) was 1/2 day and included time for blocks, dress up, morning nap and story time. The expectation was that by the end of the year you should be able to write your name and recognize letters and numbers. There was no expectation of prior school experience.

K here now (roughly the same community) is full day and the K readiness test (i.e. what they want before you start) includes writing name, recognizing and writing letters, numbers and knowing their sounds, and experience with organized classroom dynamics (e.g. raising hand, standing in line, following directions, easily separating from parents). By the end of the year K kids are expected to read, write a complete sentence including punctuation and spelling four letter words, addition and subtraction. They are expected to stay on-task for 45 minute lessons and write a book report. All so not things that I was expected to do in K!

I know that our school district has a good few pages on K readiness on their website.

There is still plenty of time for all of that. When was the last time you were in a kindy class room? We have blocks, and block boards, and toys, and recess, and naptime, and lunch that's 30 minutes, and story time inside the classroom as well as art, and music, and library for the kindy kids.

You learn to read in kindy here. Just like you did when I was in kindy. You learned to write in kindy just like I did. You learn simple addition and subtraction. Just like I did. There are not any book reports.

Perhaps it's just where you are. I grew up and went to school in Iowa for the most part. My kids are going to school roughly an hour away from my elementary school. It's the same stuff, new generation.

[Evan&Anna's_Mom]

Originally Posted by Pynki

There is still plenty of time for all of that. When was the last time you were in a kindy class room? We have blocks, and block boards, and toys, and recess, and naptime, and lunch that's 30 minutes, and story time inside the classroom as well as art, and music, and library for the kindy kids.

Um, I have a current kindy student. There are toys for indoor recess, but free time is mostly for free reading, computer use or science projects. There is a 15 minute post-lunch "rest" time when the teacher reads Harry Potter aloud, but no actual nap or lying down. They do have music, art, sports and library time but only because this is a full day program. During the third week of school all students, including the Ks, were expected to sit for a 2 hour assembly in honor of 9-11.

My point is that not all students are ready to do K at the same time, and K programs clearly vary widely depending on area. Judging from when you were a child may or may not be a valid comparison point. Making the decision should include as much info as possible about the K program and your particular student.

[meetoo]

Originally Posted by Evan&Anna's_Mom

Yes, but K curriculum, expectations and classroom norms have changed completely since you went to school (unless you're 15 or something). Judging from what adults experienced as children is not the same and school children now. K is very, very different from when I was a child.

Well I guess that depends more on where you are from. The school I attend was one of the "best" schools in the state. We did start reading in kindergarten and its not so different from the 1/2 program my daughter attends now.

[4evermom]

Huh, when I was in kindergarten in 1975-76, we did not learn how to read or do arithmetic. We learned how to print our names, practiced printing all the letters of the alphabet and numbers to 10. Possibly we were supposed to memorize our address and phone number.

[meetoo]

Originally Posted by snowmom5

I guess my bottom line opinion is that if there is really an issue with "maturity" in kindergarten (isn't that an oxymoron), then the issue is more with the educational system than with the children.

to your whole post . My DD will most likely be held back just because i really think a dec cut off is to late and there are talks it might be changed anyway so it might end up being a non issue. My son has a sept b-day. He will be almost 5 its the teacher/schools job to make the class appropriate for him. If it isn't i would see it has a failure in the school and homeschool not so much a problem with my son. That sounds so bad lol. I swear I'm not one of those "not my kid mothers" Basically what I'm saying is he is a normal, bright kid and kindy was (originally) designed for 5 yr olds so why should i wait until 6 to send him. I think it just makes the whole situation worse.

[Mary]

I haven't read the replies yet, but wanted to throw in my opinion before I do (it's probably already been said, but I'm writing it anyway).

It totally depends on the child. My son has an early August birthday too and he is now in Kindy. I fretted over it, mostly because he's small and still very attached to me, and ultimately ended up putting him in Kindy as a newly turned 5 year old. Holding him back would have been a big mistake, but we have circumstances that led me to that conclusion. The biggest factor for him is that he is very mature for his age. He is an introvert, so the stress of being surrounded by kids is hard on him, but I don't think another year would have helped, and it probably would have made it worse being around younger more impulsive kids (the impulsive wild kids in his class already make him crazy). He is also way ahead academically (he started kindy reading and has advanced math skills) and another year would have made that even worse. He has a brother that skipped a grade and I figured if he was anything like his brother (and he is), that there is no way waiting until 6 for kindy was appropriate for him.

I have subbed for my son's class and cannot tell age based on behavior but I do know that the four best behaved children in the class (he is one of them) are all summer birthdays, not held back.

I personally would stick with the age guidelines of the district unless you have a really strong reason to believe your child isn't ready.

[fadedgirl]

Originally Posted by snowmom5

I guess my bottom line opinion is that if there is really an issue with "maturity" in kindergarten (isn't that an oxymoron), then the issue is more with the educational system than with the children.

Now there it is!

In the beginning of my DD's preK year I (jokingly) asked the teacher if some boys had pro basketball players for fathers, or what the deal was, as they were 4-6" taller than the rest of the kids. Found out that 45% of the boys in my daughter's preK class would turn six during the year. My daughter didn't even turn 5 until the very end of the school year. So some of the boys were a full 1.5 years older than DD. I never dreamt they would allow such an age disparity to exist in a traditional school environment (yes they all advanced to kindy). One of the boys that was the typical age ended up being a great friend to my DD, and I could not believe the troubles that he had (in class, in PE, & on the playground) simply because he wasn't as big or mature as those boys. The older boys weren't mean to him (or any others that I am aware of, they were great kids), but he simply just could not do what they could. I do wonder what lasting implications this has left upon him.

I believe that exceptions should be allowed, but this is apparently becoming the norm and not the exception, and I disagree with it. If kindergarten is too strenuous for kindergarten-aged children, then the curriculum/class environment should be adjusted back down to normal. Otherwise, by allowing mass numbers to do this, the establishment is basically saying that most boys should be held back a year (if that weren't the case, then there would only be that rare exception, not half or more) -- in which case, *then just make it so* so that all the boys at least are of the same age. I'm not saying I agree with this stance, I'm saying I disagree with the severe age-disparity of the boys (I would feel the same if it were girls).

A previous poster spoke about the two-tiered class, and this is precisely what occurred in this class as a result of allowing these kids who should have been in kindy in preK. The typically-aged kids struggled in comparison to the much older ones, and the much older ones were bored silly the majority of the time. I fail to see how that can be good for anyone in the class (aside from the teacher, whose job is now much easier as she pretty much only had to "help" the ones of typical age ~ not that she >or other teachers< have this motive).

[boobybunny]

Originally Posted by pbjmama

I wish we could get more parents with older kids to weigh in on this. I'm curious about the longer term...middle school, high school, college.

Not a parent, but a much (23 years) older sister.


My brother entered K at the ripe old age of 4. He turned 5 in Dec. He is bright, very bright, with educated and very supportive parents.(he was reading at age 4 and had to take math at the high school in the 7th grade) He is now 16 and will be graduating this year with AP honors and credits. At 16 he is 6'2" tall, he has always been tall, he has always been skinny. He rows on a crew team and is a great kid.

What has hurt him? Girls.. Girls are some kind of unknown creature that he would really really really like to get to know but is afraid of.

My mom has pushed the hell out of him. Nothing but the best is expected, nothing but the best is allowed, he gives his everything and all. She is now a SAHM with him, before she was the first female partner at a big 8 CPA firm, and later the first female CEO of a local credit union, he is now her focus. I am worried about college for him. He leaves in six months or so. How will he be without his Harvard educated father setting standards and his highly educated mother cracking the whip, setting limits, and the like.

From my own experences with these people as parents.... I rebelled pretty hard and fast in college. BUT, I have always had a rebelious streak that you just do not see in my brother. He also has me as both an example of what not to do... and as an example of "hey.. mom and dad were right." Plus, mom was too busy running her career to notice my slipping through the cracks.

I walk the line with him between funky flunky older sis and protector of his secrets with protective guidence. We talk about stuff that would curl mom's toes and send the rest of her hair white.

[Ceinwen]

I'm in Ontario, and our kids have to be four by December 31 for JK, and five by December 31 for SK (which would be your preschool and kindergarten down south I believe!)

My dd1 (who is currently six) is a January baby, and is the oldest in her class. She is a full year older than some kids, and you can really see the difference between her and the five year olds.

My dd2 is a December baby. She could technically start at three and a half, as she would be four by the deadline.

My personal anecdote as someone who's worked in daycare, and assisted in classrooms (so YMMV) is that you can sooo see the difference between three and a half and four and a half year olds. Lots of the three year olds could still be having naps!

So, we'll be holding dd2 back a year. Sometimes I swear it's like we're sending babies off to school these days (and both my kids are or were in daycare, so I'm definitely not coming from that point of view); school is so independant and a lot (notice I didn't say ~all~) of the younger group flounders.

My brother was a December baby and did JK twice, and my one sister is a September baby and did JK twice. Neither suffered any social repercussions, and don't even remember that first year or their first group of classmates.

[Ceinwen]

Originally Posted by Pynki

There is still plenty of time for all of that. When was the last time you were in a kindy class room? We have blocks, and block boards, and toys, and recess, and naptime, and lunch that's 30 minutes, and story time inside the classroom as well as art, and music, and library for the kindy kids.

Mine is in senior kindergarten here, and didn't have any of that last year or this year. Certainly not naptime! They have a very brief 'free' period for play, but other than that - it's a lot of table work.

I think regional differences play a big part for sure.

[angela&avery]

we didnt. My ds turned 5 in the beginning of June and started K the following September. He has some focusing stuff that maturity would have helped, but he gets along wonderfully with his peers and is doing ok mostly now that is in 2nd grade.... he is at level for everything except writing, which i think would be an issue no matter if he waited a year or not.... he may have a writing disorder..... maturity wise, i like that he is in an "older" class (alot of the kids have birthdays at the end of the year like him) because i think if we had waited a year his maturity would have suffered... he tends to match the maturity of his playmates, so I think this way he is challenged to be more mature... which I Like.

[Leatherette]

We didn't keep our son back. He was 4 when he started K. He has an October birthday. He is a few years above grade level and the tallest/biggest boy in his class, despite being the youngest. He is fine socially, and chose children older than himself to play with in preschool. He was so ready to start when he did. I think it is such an individualized decision - there is no one right answer.

He's in third grade now, and no problems.

[straighthaircurly]

We were in the same position as you last year and I agonized over the decision. We decided to send him at age 5, but here are some things that helped my decision:

1) Preschool teachers' advice. They understood that I had a tough decision. He could have used another year of preschool for social-emotional reasons, but they also were afraid if I waited that it would create boredom problems for him. He is the kind of kid who rises or sins to the leve of the people around him.

2) I registered him for preschool and K so that we could see how he matured over the summer. We made the final decision the day school started.

3) I read this article: http://journal.naeyc.org/btj/200309/DelayingKEntry.pdf It gives a well written scientific examination of the results of delaying K. It was a refreshing counterpoint to all the anecdotal advice I was getting from people around me.

4) My DS wanted to attend K but was worried about the change to being gone all day. He actually came up with the idea of "practicing". So we signed him up for 2 weeks of all day summer school at a local private school. This helped him become accustomed to the hours and helped me understand what it would take to support him and the all day schedule (he is not a morning person).

5) From the very first week of school I have volunteered one afternoon a week in his classroom. This allowed me an opportunity to really understand the teacher's communication and discipline techniques. I also know all his classmates which helps when he is discussing social/friendship issues with me. And best of all it gave me a chance to get to know the teacher really well. The open communication and coordination of strategies has been key to his success this year.

6) We have created strong rituals regarding his school day, including his morning routine (we wrestle and play outside) and our activities together when he gets home. I have recognized his need for undisturbed playtime at home (so we are doing NO after school activities this year) and his need for my undivided attention right when he gets off the bus.

Only you and your DH know your child well enough to make the decision that is best. But with support and guidance he can have a successful K year as a newly turned 5 year old. And that can build into successful years ahead. I taught middle school and I saw no direct correlation between age and performance. It had much more to do with personality.

[Freeman]

Originally Posted by Hanbonem

DS is one of the tallest in his class already and certainly bright enough to move forward. Socially he has a bunch of friends in his class and has no shortage of confidence. Again, we were just concerned about the whole silly thing and some of the fine motor skills. Motor skills is influenced I think by him being a leftie.

I can't imagine him being happy in a whole class of kids that were that much younger and less physical than he is. He tends to gravitate towards older kids.

We'll talk to his preK teacher before the end of the year. She's in favor of his going but acknowledges his space and attention to projects issues. My husband will be home with him for the summer and can work more on getting our little leftie to enjoy cutting, coloring, and writing his name.

Hanbonem - These are the same issues that our son's potential K expressed (See my separate thread in this forum on Gesell testing and kindergarten readiness). DS is also a leftie, and his grip and writing are not the greatest. And he is very independent and wants to hold his pencil HIS way, not the way that anyone tells him to hold it! I wonder if lefties, in general, struggle more with grip and writing? He also is not extremely interested in coloring and could care less about trying to color inside all of the lines. Apparently these skills are of importance to the K; I would have thought that intellectual ability would be the primary deciding factor in deciding to recommend K. Instead, it seems to be birthday, motor skills, ability to sit still, etc.... I agree that these are important, but are they accurate or ultimate predictors of success?

[Leatherette]

Fine motor skills are very important - but there is a good number of boys who struggle with fine motor skills/sitting still skills for years....so keeping him back may not solve that.

You could try to do some fine motor development at home and/or have an Occupational Therapist evaluate him. I think Handwriting Without Tears has some kind of preschool program you can order.....

L.