Why does God allow animal suffering? - Page 3

[greenmamato2]

zuzunel09 - At this point, maybe we are speaking different languages, but realize that I'm not coming from an uneducated background in regards to the Christian viewpoint. I was a devout Christian for 25 years and even taught sunday school and led youth group. My problem is that EVEN KNOWING all that you guys have said here regarding that, I still don't see how if God CAN do miracles, can intervene and does in some instances, how he can allow people and animals to suffer in unjust ways? What makes one person more deserving of a miracle than another? Why would God act sometimes and not others? The only way to explain THAT part of things is to say that he has a reason, or a plan that includes allowing suffering to occur. But - if God allows the defenseless to suffer at the hands of another, even if he CAN change it, what does that say about God's character? If God is good, and love, then God wouldn't want his children to suffer. If God COULD change it, being all-powerful, and could do miracles, then why does he pick some and not others? Again, this does apply to animals as well, because according to the Christian world view he is also responsible for them.

Please know that I'm not trying to be contrary. Splitting away from my faith in the Christian God was painful, and there is always a part of me that wants to believe again, and wants to know that all of my trust in that faith was true... but I just can't marry those ideas in a way that makes me okay with worshipping a God that only saves some, and not others, or a GOd that is good, and all-powerful but refuses to act to save those who can't defend themselves.

Again - I respect others' rights to believe what they want, but this is definitely a big part of my personal answer as to my thoughts on God allowing animals to suffer.

It all starts with the original sin. We aren't innocent because of that sin. It severed our tie with God. We suffer now because of that original sin. Through belief in Jesus Christ as our Savior we'll be able to see an end to the suffering when he comes back. Jesus was God's way of getting us back to him. When the book of Revelation is fulfilled is when we'll see the end of suffering.

I understand that this is the Christian view, truly, even though I don't agree with the idea that we are all evil just for existing. I could elaborate on this a lot, but in an effort to try to stay on topic, I wont. I just still wonder - does all of this mean that God is completely absent during this time? He is only available through prayer on more of an emotional/spiritual level and never acts on earth as he did in the bible? There are no miracles? None? If there are, then what does that say about God? Can he act now on earth to perform miracles to help those who need it? Isn't that partially what we pray for when we ask for God to protect our loved ones, or to heal someone who is sick? And if he can do miracles... and if they do happen... then why some, and not others? What determines whether someone is worthy to be saved from suffering or not? Certainly not faith. I know many faithful people who suffer more than not. Job anyone?

There's just so much that doesn't make sense.

I guess all of this leads to my personal belief, which at the moment is simply that things happen - good and bad. There's no cosmic justification for cruelty. There's no redeeming reason that children and babies suffer. It just is. It is our response and our personal actions that matter. We have to try to do the best we can to honor life and love and spirit and each other.

[zuzunel09]

Greenmamato2- I didn't mean to offend you. I'm agreeing with you that suffering is tragic, whether one must choose to suffer or whether it's the unchosen suffering of people or animals...the quest for an answer to "why is there evil?" is what leads many to Christianity. It led me specifically to Orthodox Christianity, which I believe is the True Church, and has always affirmed the value of animal life. I tried to answer your question "if God is good, why doesn't He end suffering now?"- by saying that in His wisdom He allows suffering for now because it brings about mercy and self-sacrifice in his creatures. Suffering in a fellow creature, human or animal, is an invitation for us to love one another; but I'm not a wise Christian and at a certain point I just have to say that I have faith that He suffers with all of us even though His ways are mysterious sometimes.

I believe that if God were to take away our free will and make us all perfect automatons, our communion with Him would be a side effect of our nature that we couldn't control. Nothing and no one would suffer, but there would be no true love and communion because we wouldn't be free. Men choose evil and innocent victims suffer, but Christ suffers along with them.

I'm sorry you feel tormented about this issue, I have my faith issues I wrestle with as well. You can always pray to God, even if you feel the distance between Him and yourself...I've heard it said He can stand your anger and accusations, but not when you turn your back on Him.

[greenmamato2]

I think I owe you an apology, because I absolutely wasn't offended at all - I was just trying to give more information on my background. Tone is really hard to read sometimes in text online! I really do appreciate your view point, and I can see a lot of sense in what your saying. I guess what I was trying to get across (and was not very effective at - sorry!) is that even though I have the experience and knowledge that comes with many years of devoted Christian faith and education, I still don't feel *for me* that it is enough of an answer to help me marry the idea of the suffering of the defenseless with a God that is merciful, powerful, good, loving, and active.

(edited to add: I also think that God could intervene to help stop suffering, without impacting personal free will. Its a long discussion for probably another thread, but since it was brought up, I'll share a quick theory. The small gist of it is that if we're looking at the parent/child abuse situation for example -or owner/pet as the case may be- then there are agencies that could step in and take the child/pet and put it in a more loving/safe environment. That doesn't impact free will of the parents/owners, but it stops the abuse. I don't think we have to become automatons for God to work "miracles" if/when he does. If thats the case, then does God EVER work miracles on this earth? If so, would something as simple as guiding a doctor's hand during surgery be considered interfering with free will? - long long topic... don't want to get off track here, but had to chime in. )

When you said that you thought maybe we were speaking different languages, I feel you were right on because even though we have the same information, we're interpreting it different ways.

That's the way of life though, and I think is definitely something that is impacted by each person's individual lifestyle, experiences, and emotions. We all come to faith a little differently. I really appreciate you sharing yours with me/us as well

[zuzunel09]

Just thought I would add here a beautiful quote from Dostoevsky's The Brothers Karamazov, spoken by the Elder Zosima:

"Love the animals. God has given them the rudiments of thought and joy untroubled. Do not trouble their joy, do not harass them, do not deprive them of their happiness, do not work against God’s intent. Man, do not pride yourself on superiority to animals; they are without sin, and you, with your greatness, defile the earth by your appearance on it, and leave the traces of your foulness after you ‑‑ alas, it is true of almost everyone of us!"

[athansor]

That's a great quote!
So, how does everyone incorporate their feelings about animal suffering and Christianity into their daily lives? Do you think about incorporatng a veg*n diet, working to end animal cruelty, buy from small local ranchers or ???

[Oscarsmom]

As I have grown in my belief in God, I have grappled painfully with this issue. Human suffering has been given what I would call potential compensations, such as rationalization, escapism justufication, potential for revenge or forgiveness, prayer, and even the ability to explain to yourself why someone is hurting you (that doesn't lessen pain but any analysis or rationalizing can help ease suffering, IMO). in other words, we have been given ways to cope with both pain and suffering that animals have been denied. Failing all those, for example in the case of infant suffering, we are promised a reward in an afterlife of some sort.

But animals are given no such coping mechanisms, nor are they ( to our knowledge) offered compensation in an afterlife. I firmly believe in an all-loving and merciful God, whose justice may not always look the way we exoect, but who is still just.

Therefore, I have come to a few decisions. Humans will have to answer before God for their treatment of animals, just as we are told we will have to answer for our trearment of any of our neighbors. But secondly, and more relevantly, that we just do not know what way God compensates for, rewards, soothes or eases animal suffering, in this life or any other. The bible is there to tell the story of humanity's relationship with God, and to teach us what we need to know about God, ourselves, and our relationship with God. It isnt there to tell us everything that God thinks, does, sees, or plans for anything other than ourselves.

We aren't told how morality is governed on other planets that are populated, or in fact if there are any. Because it doesn't, shouldn't matter to us. The bible isnt the history of the universe, nor should/ could it be.

I have to ( or else I would collapse in grief) believe that God, who loves His creation, makes good on the suffering of the truly innocent, i.e., animals without the ability to sin. We just aren't given to know what that is, what it looks like, etc.

What we do know and are told, is what we should be doing to imitate God's love here and now, in this life and on this planet. If you find yourself asking, about any injustice or sorrow, " why isnt God doing anything?", look around for the helpers, the people whom God is using to be His hands and heart on this earth. Whether they know it or not, whether they believe in Him or not. And know that God, in his way, is doing so ething. And so, too, should you. Be a helper. Be the hands and hheart of God and alleviate suffering and injustuce.

(apologies for typos, my keyboard is horrendous)

[jackiepavan1]

Religion is only an interpretation of humans. If an animal is being abuse, mistreated in any shape, way or form, the answer is obvious: "respect to all living beings" Treat others the same way you want to be treated, period. Equality for all living beings. No exception. Love is the answer.

RELIGION IS NO OTHER BUT MEN'S INTERPRETATION TO ITS OWN CONVENIENCE, WHETHER IS WRONG OR RIGHT, ethical or unethical. Unbelievable!

And that is the truth.

[Viola]

Originally Posted by Liquesce 

Originally Posted by athansor

or if perhaps our treatment of animals is almost a test of our compassion, one which we are failing miserably.

Most animal's suffering, at least in the grand scope of the world, has had little or nothing to do with mankind at all, though, and very much to do with just the realities of life. I'll agree completely about the test-of-compassion issue ... but I just don't see that it reflects very much on the original question. Factory farms and whatnot aside -- nature itself is rough.

With the development of factory farms, I would say this statement is no longer true.  Billions of animals are raised on factory farms every year, and most of them suffer.

I have an acquaintance who is a Jehovah's Witness, and she is a vegan.  She has a pretty literal interpretation of the Bible, and believes it is OK for humans to eat animals, but that it wasn't OK until after the flood when God told Noah that every moving thing that lives shall be food for you.  I think the idea is, though, after Christ's Kingdom comes on Earth, things will be like they were in the Garden of Eden, and no one following God ate meat then.  So not all followers of God and Christ believe that you are ordered to eat meat by God.

[Maxdog]

Smokering, I'm sure you have good intentions and your writing reflects above average intelligence, but regarding your statement, "In any case I don't personally believe God owes anything to His creation, so to me a question just as relevant is: Why did God create animals with the ability to do anything other than suffer?", I have to say, Really? So, because God doesn't owe us anything, you think it's ok to send animals here to suffer? In that case, you should start being cruel to animals. Shock them, cut their ears off, kill them by anal electrocution like factory farmers do, etc. That way you'll fulfill God's will in an excellent manner.