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Should the man pay on the first date? - Page 3

post #41 of 65
I am sexist and traditional and I do think that the man should pay.

ETA -- and why is it "nicer" if the man pays?

Because I'm the woman! LMAO
post #42 of 65
When I was dating, I prefered to go dutch until I knew the person better.
post #43 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by MusicianDad View Post
I'm wondering why the man has to be willing to shell out money just to show he's interested.

I knew very few men, straight or otherwise, who feel they need to have a financial investment in a woman in order to have an emotional investment.
In my experience, the ones who expect the woman to pay are generally deadbeats who will expect her to pay/support them in the long run.

Due to my own personal experience, I run from dates like this.
post #44 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by LionTigerBear View Post
The person who asks should pay, although it's fine if they offer to pay even if it was your idea.
Yep - same here.
post #45 of 65
I have been married for almost 12 years, so I am certainly NOT on the dating scene..

however, I DID date quite a lot before that and I NEVER paid for anything on a date... never was offered a bill, nothing- not in the US, not in other countries either..

Would I have paid if I had asked the guy out? probably, but I was a bit of a social butterfly.. I rarely stayed home weekends and yet I never asked anyone out.

ETA: I never have been on a date with a woman.. like, date date.. so in that case, I could not possibly comment.
post #46 of 65
I think the asker should do the paying.

DH asked for and paid for our first date. Hmmm. I might have paid for the movie or coffee after dinner though.

After that I would pay like every third time, because I knew he made more than me (we worked in the same office, I knew what his position was and what his general pay would be in that spot). He really appreciated it becuase the girlfriend prior to me was very high maintenance and expected him to pay all the time and take her on vacations to resorts. I guess my modern method worked, because I got the guy.
post #47 of 65
There is no such thing as a 'biologically-rooted tradition' in dating. Fallacy. Made up out of thin air by patriarchal, woman-hating culture, which tells us women are weak and worthless (or 'just' submissive and 'complementary' to the centrality of male humanity), and men are strong and the center of everything.

Tradition is rooted in culture, not biology. For the love of pete, will people please deal in reality and not continue with the outdated, disproven assumptions? They are based on nothing except collective ignorance/denial.

There is nothing natural or inherent about males dominating over, or pursuing females. Nothing. It's a cultural fantasy, invented for the specific purpose of oppressing women. The evidence is everywhere...it's all over this conversation. Open your eyes. SEE.

If you happen to 'like' being oppressed/dominated/lorded over for whatever reason, so be it. But please, PLEASE, stop assuming that this is the case for all women and that it is somehow biological or natural or innate. It's NOT. It's social. It's cultural. It's as artificial as food coloring. It has nothing to do with nature whatsoever. Believe it, live it if you must, but please stop assuming that it's 'biological'.

It might be comfortable and acceptable to some women, but it is not natural. Nature would never allow a weak, dependent creature to survive so long. Nature would not assign the laborious task of childrearing to a weak, dependent creature. Women are not weak and dependent. We are not now, nor were we ever. We are strong and capable. We always have been. We don't need to be pursued. We don't need to be taken care of. We are just as human and intelligent and capable as anybody else. That knowledge has simply been lost by centuries of oppression, but the abilities are still there.

I can't stand to see people as wonderful and powerful as women, all women, suffer and labor under the delusion that they are not fully human.

The whole 'who pays for the first date' thing is trivial, but it does speak to larger, more dangerous assumptions about the way an awful lot of people *still* seem to view male/female relationships and roles.
post #48 of 65
Wow. So many of these responses seems a bit sexist to me, although they may not be, it's coming across that way to me. While I can understand that maybe it is more of a "traditional" take rather than a "sexist" one, I'm just surprised that more of us aren't ready to move beyond that tradition...but it is nice to eat for free! In my experience, it has been pretty much split evenly as far as paying for things - dinner, movies, whatever. Often, whomever obviously has more money ends up paying for more things. Sometimes thats me, sometimes it's not.

And dating is only for finding a spouse? Really?
post #49 of 65
I think each person should pay for themselves. Until I was in a relationship with someone I never let anyone pay for me.
post #50 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by aniT View Post
In my experience, the ones who expect the woman to pay are generally deadbeats who will expect her to pay/support them in the long run.

Due to my own personal experience, I run from dates like this.
My (admittedly limited) experience with women, mosty my dad's girlfriends say the opposite is also true. That women who expect a man to pay for them, also tend to expect the man to spend a whole lot of money on them.

My guess is that it's a matter of judging based on previous experience. Not always a bad thing to do, but one must uderstand that their own experiences won't cover all, or even most of those they are assigning that particular characteristic too.
post #51 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by MusicianDad View Post
My (admittedly limited) experience with women, mosty my dad's girlfriends say the opposite is also true. That women who expect a man to pay for them, also tend to expect the man to spend a whole lot of money on them.
I've definitely seen men who are happy to have the woman pay and are also really abusive, in general. I've also seen men who are happy to have the woman pay who aren't like that at all. I think it depends on whether the willingness to let the woman pay is rooted in an understanding that there's no reason why she shouldn't be able to, or if it's rooted in a belief that said man shouldn't have to exert himself or get off his duff, and is entitled to be waited on. One is very liberated, and the other is just a non-traditional twist on believing that men are superior in every way.

And, yes - I certainly know women who believe that men should always be willing to spend a fortune on them, just for the privilege of being "allowed" to do so. It's kind of stomach-turning...

Honestly, dh would happily spend more money on me than I like, but all his money is our money, so there really isn't an issue, yk?
post #52 of 65
What if there is no man on the date? :
post #53 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm Bride View Post
I've definitely seen men who are happy to have the woman pay and are also really abusive, in general. I've also seen men who are happy to have the woman pay who aren't like that at all. I think it depends on whether the willingness to let the woman pay is rooted in an understanding that there's no reason why she shouldn't be able to, or if it's rooted in a belief that said man shouldn't have to exert himself or get off his duff, and is entitled to be waited on. One is very liberated, and the other is just a non-traditional twist on believing that men are superior in every way.

And, yes - I certainly know women who believe that men should always be willing to spend a fortune on them, just for the privilege of being "allowed" to do so. It's kind of stomach-turning...

Honestly, dh would happily spend more money on me than I like, but all his money is our money, so there really isn't an issue, yk?
Excatly why we can't assume that a woman paying is being taken advantage of and why we can't state that men need to pay in order to prove themselves worthy.
post #54 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustVanessa View Post
What if there is no man on the date? :
What if there's no woman involved?
post #55 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustVanessa View Post
What if there is no man on the date? :
Quote:
Originally Posted by MusicianDad View Post
What if there's no woman involved?
These are actually really good questions in terms of the general question. How do people on dates work out the "who pays" issue when gender politics aren't relevant?
post #56 of 65
Stormbride, MusicianDad and JustVanessa -

Yep. Poo on me for not mentioning that.
post #57 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm Bride View Post
These are actually really good questions in terms of the general question. How do people on dates work out the "who pays" issue when gender politics aren't relevant?
Easy. You ask, you pay.
post #58 of 65
The person who asks, pays. The person who doesn't, puts out.
post #59 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by MusicianDad View Post
I'm wondering why the man has to be willing to shell out money just to show he's interested.

I knew very few men, straight or otherwise, who feel they need to have a financial investment in a woman in order to have an emotional investment.
I'm just lucky, I guess. ;-) Granted, I only experimented with asking guys out twice, during college... but both times, it was a miserable catastrophe.

I don't, personally, think that the man has to shell out money to show he's interested... but he has to invest himself in the "hook-up", which means he makes the first move. This has nothing to do with being weaker or dependent or anything; it has to do with the fact that I expect the partner in my relationship to take an EQUAL share of the work of making the connection, and this seems to only happen if they have to start things.

I remember when I was a senior in high school, I was dating a guy who was a nearly-homeless high-school dropout a couple years older than me. I had a part-time job, and he was living in his car (until my parents decided they didn't like the idea of me dating a guy who was living in his car, so my dad offered him his spare bedroom). When we went out someplace that cost money, I was the one who paid.... duh. But he still initiated the relationship. It doesn't have to cost money to "make a date."

Quote:
Originally Posted by cjuniverse View Post
Tradition is rooted in culture, not biology. For the love of pete, will people please deal in reality and not continue with the outdated, disproven assumptions? They are based on nothing except collective ignorance/denial.
Actually, quite a number of women on this thread have posted from their own experience, including me. Yeah, I don't like the notion that men should ask and pay "because they are men." That doesn't sit well with me. But, my experience is that, if I did the asking (which meant also the paying, because I think that one follows the other), I did not get treated properly in the relationship. I don't see why I should put up with a partner who is emotionally uninvested in the relationship, just so I can reject a tradition that someone else tells me is sexist.

Sexism is making decisions based on chromosomes instead of people. Rotely rejecting a sexually asymmetrical tradition can also be a form of sexism.
post #60 of 65
Proper etiquette is to always offer to pay at the end of the meal, if not for the whole thing, then just for yourself. But, it's only polite to offer once. It's considered rude to fight over the check.

I have ALWAYS offered to pay for myself, to go halfers, or to just pay for the whole dinner. Sometimes I was taken up on that offer, sometimes not. It didn't make a difference to me either way. Though, mainly, I prefer paying for myself.

I definitely do NOT think men "should" pay, though. That's a custom stemming from when women did not have access to their own money. That has changed now, and the custom should no longer apply.
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