Should non-vaxed kids be allowed to attend public school? - Page 3

[spero]

Originally Posted by peainthepod

My post was kind of tongue-in-cheek, which can be hard to convey on the internet.

OK, but IMO saying that "freshly vaxed kids are walking around shedding live viruses everywhere" is just as bad as saying, "unvaxed kids are walking around spreading disease everywhere". Both statements are vague, inflammatory, and only further fuel the debate.

[peainthepod]

Perhaps, but I'm not the kind to walk on eggshells in hopes of convincing others. I'm sorry if I offended you but I'm not writing for an academic journal here and again, it was meant to be flippant.

[spero]

You didn't offend me. I'm just saying that it doesn't present a very good argument, either way. You don't have to walk on eggshells to present accurate info.

[peainthepod]

But it IS a good argument. Live virus vaccines shed. Through stool, perhaps, but they shed. If you want to keep debating the merits of my posting and whether they meet your standards, perhaps we could take this to PM?

[spero]

Agree to disagree, pea. No need for further wrangling via PM.

[Super Glue Mommy]

Originally Posted by peainthepod

But it IS a good argument. Live virus vaccines shed. Through stool, perhaps, but they shed. If you want to keep debating the merits of my posting and whether they meet your standards, perhaps we could take this to PM?

:

it is a good argument. so good that there is no good rebuttal, so instead of it being about your statement the focus became on the way you delivered the statement. take it as a 'win' it's the closest you come to on in the debate world!

[Juvysen]

Originally Posted by spero

STAR exemptions are available for all taxpayers. We have four children (3 are school-aged) and we get a STAR exemption.

Excellent! I thought it was related to school age. So, um, why is it an exemption if anyone can get it? Do your kids have to not GO to public school? Sorry, all I know is that we got it so now I'm wondering how we can keep getting it?

Originally Posted by Super Glue Mommy

I admitted from the beginning, its jnot really a reliable source he is from NJ though, maybe they have something similar to the STAR exemption, but I think it was really more a matter of misinformation. My FIL tends to make things up

[spero]

Originally Posted by Super Glue Mommy

it is a good argument. so good that there is no good rebuttal, so instead of it being about your statement the focus became on the way you delivered the statement. take it as a 'win' it's the closest you come to on in the debate world!

And this is why non-vaxers are so often not taken seriously.

[spero]

Originally Posted by Juvysen

Excellent! I thought it was related to school age. So, um, why is it an exemption if anyone can get it? Do your kids have to not GO to public school? Sorry, all I know is that we got it so now I'm wondering how we can keep getting it?

No, our kids attend public school and we get the basic STAR exemption. The enhanced STAR exemption is for senior citizens.

http://www.orps.state.ny.us/star/faq.htm

The Basic STAR exemption is available for owner-occupied, primary residences regardless of the owners' ages or incomes. Basic STAR works by exempting the first $30,000 of the full value of a home from school taxes.

Property owners who are granted the Basic STAR exemption generally will not need to reapply in subsequent years because the Basic STAR exemption is granted regardless of income.

[Juvysen]

Originally Posted by spero

No, our kids attend public school and we get the basic STAR exemption. The enhanced STAR exemption is for senior citizens.

http://www.orps.state.ny.us/star/faq.htm

Nice. Thanks!

[Full Heart]

Originally Posted by spero

Let's clarify that, b/c misinformation like this just gives unvaxers a bad name.

Freshly vaccinated kids are not exactly "shedding live viruses all over the place." A FEW vaccines are live virus vaccines. With the exception of FluMist, most live vaccines shed primarily in the stool. So unless a bunch of kindy kids are playing in each others' poop, it's not very likely that the vaxed kids are spreading their "vaccine diseases" all over the school.

You would think. But look at the 2005 MN cases. It came from the oral vaccine that had been stopped 5 years previous. They have no idea where it came from, but they figure passed from person to person to person. I highly doubt that in the course of 5 years people were playing in poop constantly. Yes, some diseases spread through fecal contamination and people still get sick despite not playing in poop. Proper hand washing is important and kids esp are not good about this.

[PaigeC]

Originally Posted by spero
Let's clarify that, b/c misinformation like this just gives unvaxers a bad name.

Freshly vaccinated kids are not exactly "shedding live viruses all over the place." A FEW vaccines are live virus vaccines. With the exception of FluMist, most live vaccines shed primarily in the stool. So unless a bunch of kindy kids are playing in each others' poop, it's not very likely that the vaxed kids are spreading their "vaccine diseases" all over the school.

This isn't true. First, I think rotavirus, varicella, flumist, measles, mumps, and rubella, pertussis is more than a FEW. Second, they are NOT ONLY SHED IN STOOL. Measles for example has been found in throats meaning it can be spread via cough, sneeze etc. I just recently posted a few peer-reviewed articles about this on the vax board so I won't repeat.

I understand where you are coming from with "vaxed kis are..." as being inflammatory. As a non-vaxer I would never want to segregate vaxed kids from mine because I'm not afraid of these disease. I think the comment about vaxed kids shedding like crazy is an indictment of the vaccine establishment not the parents or children that are shedding. Vaccines are this great success but the reality (shedding, subclinical infection, ability to spread) is largely ignored.

[Marnica]

Originally Posted by PaigeC

This isn't true. First, I think rotavirus, varicella, flumist, measles, mumps, and rubella, pertussis is more than a FEW. Second, they are NOT ONLY SHED IN STOOL. Measles for example has been found in throats meaning it can be spread via cough, sneeze etc. I just recently posted a few peer-reviewed articles about this on the vax board so I won't repeat.

I understand where you are coming from with "vaxed kis are..." as being inflammatory. As a non-vaxer I would never want to segregate vaxed kids from mine because I'm not afraid of these disease. I think the comment about vaxed kids shedding like crazy is an indictment of the vaccine establishment not the parents or children that are shedding. Vaccines are this great success but the reality (shedding, subclinical infection, ability to spread) is largely ignored.

Agree with you Paige! But the DTaP is not a live virus vax, the others you listed are...still more than a few!

[spero]

Originally Posted by PaigeC

This isn't true. First, I think rotavirus, varicella, flumist, measles, mumps, and rubella, pertussis is more than a FEW. Second, they are NOT ONLY SHED IN STOOL. Measles for example has been found in throats meaning it can be spread via cough, sneeze etc.

See, this is exactly what I mean. Pertussis ISN'T a live virus vaccine.

And it's also why I didn't make a blanket statement that ALL live virus vaccines shed ONLY in the stool.

[caro113]

Unfortunately, I'm not surprised by this. Remember in the news a few months ago (I remember I was pregnant so it was within the last year) when a MD school sent home a letter saying parents had until this date to vax their kids or the parents would be put in jail and the state would take custody of their children and then vax them? And until they vaxed their children, the children were not allowed to attend school. The school had like 1200 unvax children! Eventually someone challenged it, saying it was illegal for the school to keep the children from school and force them to vax. Sadly though, some of those parents did vax their children But at least they won and were able to sue.

The people who don't believe unvaxed children should be allowed in public schools are probably the same people who dont believe in nip (or bf at all). They're probably the same people who circ b everyone else does it. They're probably the same people who say co-sleeping is dangerous, along with any sleeping position that doesn't have baby on its back.

[Baby_Vol]

Without reading all the other answers ...um, YES!

My husband is a teacher and so is my Mom. They have taught in a couple different schools/states, and never were they asked (as teachers) to provide their vax records. I'm 100% sure all the teachers are not up to date on their boosters.

[Lazy Gardens]

Originally Posted by Marnica

I find this interesting because I have read SOOOOO many studies of completely vaccinated children coming down with said disease. In outbreaks of certain diseases, the % of vaxed kids is usually as high almost if not higher than the unvaxed kids so unvaxed kids are really NO more likely to come down with said disease than one who is vaccinated.

It's because the statistics are confusing you - it has nothing to do with the absolute numbers who get the disease and everything to do with the relative proportions of vaccinated and unvaccinated persons.

If 90% of children are vaccinated, 90% of the cases would have to be in vaccinated children to be able to say "unvaxed kids are really NO more likely to come down with said disease than one who is vaccinated".

[Lazy Gardens]

Originally Posted by caro113

Remember in the news a few months ago (I remember I was pregnant so it was within the last year) when a MD school sent home a letter saying parents had until this date to vax their kids or the parents would be put in jail and the state would take custody of their children and then vax them?

See http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/1119/p02s04-ussc.html and
"The school board asked the courts to help by setting up a date for parents to either have their children vaccinated on site or provide evidence that they were in compliance with the law."

" Glenn Ivey, state's attorney in Prince George's County said a lot of the uproar over the county's new approach to this issue was fueled by misinformation – especially websites that said "we were going to start arresting people."

http://www.gazette.net/stories/11220...47_32355.shtml
The school system has given parents numerous warnings of immunization requirements over the last 18 months. Schools have sent multiple letters informing parents of immunizations requirements, school personnel were sent door-to-door to talk with parents and some schools provided transportation during the day for students to receive shots at a free clinic.

[rhiandmoi]

Originally Posted by Lazy Gardens

If 90% of children are vaccinated, 90% of the cases would have to be in vaccinated children to be able to say "unvaxed kids are really NO more likely to come down with said disease than one who is vaccinated".

Well sort of, it is related to the ratio of sick to total. So if 48/1000 vaccinated kids get sick and 12/100 unvaxed get sick - 4 times as many of the cases are in vaccinated kids, but 4.8% of vaccinated kids got sick and 12% of non-vax. So non-vax are 2.5 times as likely to get sick, even though they are only 1/4 of the cases.

[ammiga]

Originally Posted by Lazy Gardens

It's because the statistics are confusing you - it has nothing to do with the absolute numbers who get the disease and everything to do with the relative proportions of vaccinated and unvaccinated persons.

If 90% of children are vaccinated, 90% of the cases would have to be in vaccinated children to be able to say "unvaxed kids are really NO more likely to come down with said disease than one who is vaccinated".

This is false.

Statistically speaking, if you are looking to see if the vax has an impact on protecting people, you look at the number of infected people and see if the percentage of vaxed people is different than the percentage of unvaxed people. If the percentages are roughly the same, the conclusion would be that vaccines do not impact the likelihood of catching that disease.

If 90% of people with the disease had been vaxed, that would be a very strong case that vaxes actually cause the disease.

There are also other factors that would be relevant to the analysis, but I won't get into all of those now.