Autism in Non Vacs?

[KittyDanger]

I don't know if this has already been addressed in this forum, but I was curious if there are any parents on here who chose not to have their child vaccinated, but they developed Autism anyway.

[Pyrodjm]

I have worked with children that were never vaccinated and and were diagnosed with autism. It happens. There are mamas on here with non-vaxed children that are on the spectrum.

[brendaziz]

I just met w/ my doula for the first time yesterday and the topic of vaxes came up and she has 6 kids. She stopped vaxing after her 2nd and then her 4th (a girl) was diagnosed w/ autism.
She said that while other people who disagreed w/ her not vaxing saw it as "see- it happened even though u didnt vax- you might as well have vaxed her"
she saw it as "Wow, I'm so glad I didnt vax her b/c if she was most definitely predisposed to this- imagine how much worse it could be if i had vaxed"

From what I understand her daughter is on the lower end of the spectrum and she's just so grateful for their decision not to vax her- as it could be so much worse.

It definitely is not a non-existent occurence in the non vaxing community- but I DO think that the occurence is much higher in the fully vaxing community. Just my opinion- though I woudl LOVE to see actual research done on this.
Too bad a pharmaceutical company would never pay for a study like that cuz they'd be scared crapless of what the outcome woudl be!

[Super Glue Mommy]

i agree with brenda

[tayndrewsmama]

If you search past threads you find a number of them addressing this.

[Panserbjorne]

yup.

[Lollicup]

Does anyone have a link to that thread?

[Sileree]

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=661319

[ema-adama]

An absolutely facinating discussion. But hours and hours of reading.

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=367180 "what causes autism?"

[KittyDanger]

Thank you all for your responses. I will check out the other discussions.

[Panserbjorne]

I cannot believe someone said that to you.

I think that this is why I am so careful to never say that vaccines cause autism. It just opens too many doors, not to mention it's not true. If it was everyone who was vaxxed would be autistic. What IS true is that vaccines can push an already susceptible kid into that state.

[claddaghmom]

I would absolutely think autism exists in vaccine free kids.

Plenty of people who have never smoked in their life get lung cancer.

But everyone seems to accept that smoking causes lung cancer.

I don't see why it's so hard to have the same concept about vaccines.


The body struggles for life and is an amazingly complex organism. It takes more than one thing to knock it down. A multitude of factors, some of which we may never even be able to figure out, come into play, such as genetics, hormones, threshold levels, synergistic combinations, etc.

[Panserbjorne]

Originally Posted by claddaghmom

I would absolutely think autism exists in vaccine free kids.

Plenty of people who have never smoked in their life get lung cancer.

But everyone seems to accept that smoking causes lung cancer.

I don't see why it's so hard to have the same concept about vaccines.


The body struggles for life and is an amazingly complex organism. It takes more than one thing to knock it down. A multitude of factors, some of which we may never even be able to figure out, come into play, such as genetics, hormones, threshold levels, synergistic combinations, etc.

agreed.

And to the above point I don't believe smoking causes lung cancer....so I guess there's the difference in opinion. I believe that smoking can create an environment where lung cancer can thrive in an individual who is susceptible. Very big differences IMO. But again, I tend to get railed on for semantics. To me it's bigger than that.

For me to agree that X causes Y you have to show me that everyone who does X will have Y as a result. Cessation in breathing for 30 minutes will always cause death. Exposure of water to temperatures below 32 degrees F will always cause freezing. Smoking will not always cause lung cancer and vaccination will not always cause autism.

The distinction to *me* is that it doesn't have any bearing on my child if yours (not you, but a hypothetical "yours") was vaccinated without issue. It could still be problematic for MY child.

[Mirzam]

Originally Posted by Panserbjørne

agreed.

And to the above point I don't believe smoking causes lung cancer....so I guess there's the difference in opinion. I believe that smoking can create an environment where lung cancer can thrive in an individual who is susceptible. Very big differences IMO. But again, I tend to get railed on for semantics. To me it's bigger than that.

For me to agree that X causes Y you have to show me that everyone who does X will have Y as a result. Cessation in breathing for 30 minutes will always cause death. Exposure of water to temperatures below 32 degrees F will always cause freezing. Smoking will not always cause lung cancer and vaccination will not always cause autism.

The distinction to *me* is that it doesn't have any bearing on my child if yours (not you, but a hypothetical "yours") was vaccinated without issue. It could still be problematic for MY child.

I agree with EVERYTHING PB has written above.

[claddaghmom]

Originally Posted by Panserbjørne

agreed.

And to the above point I don't believe smoking causes lung cancer....so I guess there's the difference in opinion. I believe that smoking can create an environment where lung cancer can thrive in an individual who is susceptible. Very big differences IMO. But again, I tend to get railed on for semantics. To me it's bigger than that.

For me to agree that X causes Y you have to show me that everyone who does X will have Y as a result. Cessation in breathing for 30 minutes will always cause death. Exposure of water to temperatures below 32 degrees F will always cause freezing. Smoking will not always cause lung cancer and vaccination will not always cause autism.

The distinction to *me* is that it doesn't have any bearing on my child if yours (not you, but a hypothetical "yours") was vaccinated without issue. It could still be problematic for MY child.

You won't hear disagreement from me. I just didn't delve into the details much.

Honestly, after all the science I've studied, the only thing I can be sure of is that we know about .0000000001% of what there is to know about the human body, disease and pathophysiology.

[spero]

I know of at least one MDC mama who has an unvaxed, autistic child.

[Super Glue Mommy]

^you know of at least one (meaning you may already know of more then 1, but lost count after 1), or you know one, but there might be more?

[spero]

I PERSONALLY know of one, but I suspect there are more. Clear?

[Super Glue Mommy]

yes, that seems more accurate. and I am sure there are more then 1 too some children are born with it, some are predispositioned, and some only have "autistic-like-characteristics".

[Super Glue Mommy]

here are some articles for consideration:
now some of them are really just specualtion (though, so is the fact that vaccines DONT cause autism) but some of them are statistical, but you have to keep in mind both the source and the way the numbers may be skewed in either direction depending on the source.

http://www.ageofautism.com/2008/04/olmsted-on-au-3.html
(this article make a good rebuttle against the amish being vaccinated and having lower autism rates)

http://www.generationrescue.org/survey.html
(survery in one area - on boys - on vaccinated versus unvaccination showed vaccinated boys had a 155% greater chance of having a neurological disorder like ADHD or autism than unvaccinated boys.)

above:
All vaccinated boys, compared to unvaccinated boys:
- Vaccinated boys were 155% more likely to have a neurological disorder (RR 2.55)
- Vaccinated boys were 224% more likely to have ADHD (RR 3.24)
- Vaccinated boys were 61% more likely to have autism (RR 1.61)
Older vaccinated boys, ages 11-17 (about half the boys surveyed), compared to older unvaccinated boys:
- Vaccinated boys were 158% more likely to have a neurological disorder (RR 2.58)
- Vaccinated boys were 317% more likely to have ADHD (RR 4.17)
- Vaccinated boys were 112% more likely to have autism (RR 2.12)
(Note: older children may be a more reliable indicator because many children are not diagnosed until they are 6-8 years old, and we captured data beginning at age 4.)
All vaccinated boys, removing one county with unusual results (Multnomah, OR), compared to unvaccinated boys:
- Vaccinated boys were 185% more likely to have a neurological disorder (RR 2.85)
- Vaccinated boys were 279% more likely to have ADHD (RR 3.79)
- Vaccinated boys were 146% more likely to have autism (RR 2.46)
All vaccinated boys and girls, compared to unvaccinated boys and girls:
- Vaccinated boys and girls were 120% more likely to have asthma (RR 2.20)
- No correlation established for juvenile diabetes
All vaccinated girls, compared to unvaccinated girls:
- No meaningful differences in prevalence were noted for NDs (which may be due to the smaller sample size of the study because girls represent about 20% of cases.)

2 More Surverys shown in this article:
http://www.ageofautism.com/2008/03/oh-just-2-mor-1.html
(again, you have to consider the source)

This explains, basically, why no study so far has really be inrefutibly conclusive (though they are addressing one in particular)
http://epiwonk.com/?p=57

Now, what has to be considered, is that the information necessary to find out the statistics properly is in the hands of the people who do not want to do such a study in fear of the results : The CDC.

However, the reason why some parents, myself included, see there is a link is because sometimes you DO have to take into consideration other people's experiences. With SO many people experiencing a child changing nearly overnight after receiving the MMR vaccine (and I believe when I first began reading about this that it accounted for the measles vaccine seperately as well) it's kind of ludacris that this kind of thing is just blown off and discounted simply because we can't scientifically prove what happened. Well, they cant disprove it either. They have the numbers too, and haven't been able to disprove it statistically. why dont they share all their numbers. why dont they do a study with proper control groups, then have a 3rd unbiased party analyze the numbers?

It wouldn't be impossible to figure out if statistcally it was reasonable to assume that vaccine damage can "set off" autism in predispositioned people or create autism like characteristics. Perhaps there could be no "perfect study" but certainly they can do far better then what they do now.I think its a matter of them trying to disprove it, and they havent yet, and thats why that information hasnt been shared yet. maybe they would be able to find answers faster if they were trying to prove it, or at least just looking for "answers" without a predetermined answer in mind.

another anecdotal article:
http://www.organicconsumers.org/scho...ines122005.cfm
http://www.organicconsumers.org/scho...ines122005.cfm