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Need a non biased link that presents both sides - UPDATE added a handout, care to read it?  

post #1 of 35
Thread Starter 
Hello,

I don't have time to do a search to find this info so I'm hoping someone has a link handy.

I am starting to do doula work and had my first prenatal appointment a few days ago. The subject of circumcision came up and it was obvious they had not put a lot of thought into it. More like a "of course. life father like son right?" I was fumbling over my words and really realized I don't know a whole lot about the pros and cons. We didn't circ because it just seemed like the obvious choice so I never did much research on this issue before.

I need a link to info that is non biased and presents pros and cons of circ/no circ. It can't come off too preachy or like I'm trying to push an agenda. I support whatever they decide but as a doula, I need to provide information that is non biased so they can make an educated decision.

Any links that would work for this?

Thanks!
post #2 of 35
Well, I am sure you're aware of it but this is the case against circumcision we don't really believe there is any reason to do it. And I hope you lean on them subtly in that direction. Anyway, here is one: http://www.askdrsears.com/html/1/t012000.asp

How is that? I'll dig for more. How about: http://www.circumstitions.com/Docs/itsaboy.pdf you might find it too preachy. Would you consider stocking NOCIRC pamphlets? http://www.nocirc.org/publish/
post #3 of 35
Thread Starter 
For sure I will encourage them not to circ in a subtle way. I just felt like I was tripping over my words and wasn't sure what to say that sounded professional. We are always taught as doulas to not put our agenda on the clients and we need to provide info on both sides so they can make an educated decision.

I like the Dr. Sears article and the nocirc pamphlet. I definitely want a hand out that I can give to clients.
post #4 of 35
Thread Starter 
Oh I also thought I would add that I am looking for links that I can add to my website. But again, I don't want them to seem overbearing and like I am pushing an agenda on others.
post #5 of 35
The trouble is, 'I'm against circ but not to the extent of telling you it's really bad' is an agenda and a bias, just as much as any other viewpoint. Presenting the 'other side' isn't a neutral position (any more than presenting your clients with the pros and cons of FGM would be a neutral position). There's really no such thing as neutral in this case (or most cases, philosophically speaking); choosing to engage clients on this topic at all, choosing what info to present and how to present it will always be biassed in one direction or another. The question is, what bias is morally/ethically correct? Personally I'd go for the "HELL no you ain't doing that to your kid!" bias, but I can certainly see the appeal in going for a resource which is medical and non-ranty (which is not the same thing as 'neutral').

Does that make sense? Dr Sears is probably a good choice as he's a household name and people know he's not just some crackpot.
post #6 of 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by CanidFL View Post
For sure I will encourage them not to circ in a subtle way. I just felt like I was tripping over my words and wasn't sure what to say that sounded professional. We are always taught as doulas to not put our agenda on the clients and we need to provide info on both sides so they can make an educated decision.

.

I was already leaning toward leaving my son intact but my doula really tipped the balance for me. She was totally anti-circ and I REALLY appreciated it. Please re-think the "balanced" thing.
post #7 of 35
Could you download the Circ video, burn it in a DVD and give it to them? You can have this video available for your future clients...

http://vp.video.google.com/videodown...NbYvGldISCYTFg
post #8 of 35
Ask them the question: "Have your considered NOT circumcising?" Then follow whatever they say to start to provide them info. Like if they say "no we never considered it" suggest that there is a lot to know, and a lot of myths, and that they really need to do some research. You can rattle off some ideas for things to research for starters like "The foreskin is actually a very normal, healthy, sexually important body part and you really need to know more about it before you make any decisions about cutting it off" (give links). Or "do you know how a circumcision is actually done" (give links). If they say "well yes, but I don't want him to be laughed at in the locker room, I've heard its so much harder to take care of..." etc. than you can provide info to reassure and inform them to dismiss these myths. However you communicate, leave the door open for further conversations. Just get them starting to think about it, and keep slipping them info.

If you focus on giving factual information, you are doing your job of informing them. There is a lot of information they will never get any where else if not from you. Don't worry about "both sides of the story." This information you'll give them about the normal penis and the harms of circumcision IS the other side of the story from what most people get (the "quick and safe" "hardly cries" "easier to take care of" b.s.).

Good luck, and thanks for doing what you do. I'm sure you'll learn as you go what the best way to talk to clients is. I just have found as a nurse that I get the most mileage out of asking them "Have you considered not circumcising?"

Gillian
post #9 of 35
" we recommend that kids stay intact " and then educate them on the purpose of the foreskin.

You won't hear any pro circ arguments in this forum.
post #10 of 35
I don't think you need to list the pros and cons. A simple handout saying what it is, that the AAP doesn't recommend it, and follow it with some short instructions on how to care for an uncircumcised penis. Maybe if you feel very strongly about it, note at the bottom of the handout, that you will not be able to be present at circumcisions so parents will need to make plans for that if they choose to circumcise.
post #11 of 35
I have been searching for non-biased links and I can't find them. They don't exist. I have tried to collect some "softer" links:

http://www.chronogram.com/issue/2008...re-than-a-Snip
http://www.parentinghelpme.com/paren...point-of-view/
http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/menshealt...rcumcision.htm
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,445429,00.html
http://pediatrics.about.com/cs/weekl...022002_ask.htm
http://www.healthcentral.com/drdean/408/9985.html
http://aappolicy.aappublications.org...cs%3b103/3/686
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/new...7?OpenDocument

If you decide to circumcise (anesthesia):
http://www.drgreene.com/21_759.html
http://www.aspmn.org/pdfs/Pediatric%20Circumcision.pdf
http://pediatrics.aappublications.or.../full/101/6/e5

If you decide not to circumcise:
http://www.childrenshospital.org/az/...ageS652P0.html

I have stayed away from any link from nocirc.com, circumstitions, etc. I think some people will be really turned off just by the url or the home page since they are likely to surf to it.

There is also a great pamphlet from www.coloradonocirc.org that you could print out. It's called Circumcision and the Foreskin: Information for Expectant Parents
post #12 of 35
beru those are great links
post #13 of 35
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhiandmoi View Post
I don't think you need to list the pros and cons. A simple handout saying what it is, that the AAP doesn't recommend it, and follow it with some short instructions on how to care for an uncircumcised penis. Maybe if you feel very strongly about it, note at the bottom of the handout, that you will not be able to be present at circumcisions so parents will need to make plans for that if they choose to circumcise.
Great idea. I didn't know the AAP did not recommend it I really need to educate myself more on this issue if people are going to be asking me as a professional.

Quote:
Originally Posted by glongley View Post
Ask them the question: "Have your considered NOT circumcising?" Then follow whatever they say to start to provide them info. Like if they say "no we never considered it" suggest that there is a lot to know, and a lot of myths, and that they really need to do some research. You can rattle off some ideas for things to research for starters like "The foreskin is actually a very normal, healthy, sexually important body part and you really need to know more about it before you make any decisions about cutting it off" (give links). Or "do you know how a circumcision is actually done" (give links). If they say "well yes, but I don't want him to be laughed at in the locker room, I've heard its so much harder to take care of..." etc. than you can provide info to reassure and inform them to dismiss these myths. However you communicate, leave the door open for further conversations. Just get them starting to think about it, and keep slipping them info.

If you focus on giving factual information, you are doing your job of informing them. There is a lot of information they will never get any where else if not from you. Don't worry about "both sides of the story." This information you'll give them about the normal penis and the harms of circumcision IS the other side of the story from what most people get (the "quick and safe" "hardly cries" "easier to take care of" b.s.).

Good luck, and thanks for doing what you do. I'm sure you'll learn as you go what the best way to talk to clients is. I just have found as a nurse that I get the most mileage out of asking them "Have you considered not circumcising?"

Gillian
Great advice. I love this approach and think I will use it for future clients.

Quote:
Originally Posted by beru View Post
I have been searching for non-biased links and I can't find them. They don't exist. I have tried to collect some "softer" links:

http://www.chronogram.com/issue/2008...re-than-a-Snip
http://www.parentinghelpme.com/paren...point-of-view/
http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/menshealt...rcumcision.htm
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,445429,00.html
http://pediatrics.about.com/cs/weekl...022002_ask.htm
http://www.healthcentral.com/drdean/408/9985.html
http://aappolicy.aappublications.org...cs%3b103/3/686
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/new...7?OpenDocument

If you decide to circumcise (anesthesia):
http://www.drgreene.com/21_759.html
http://www.aspmn.org/pdfs/Pediatric%20Circumcision.pdf
http://pediatrics.aappublications.or.../full/101/6/e5

If you decide not to circumcise:
http://www.childrenshospital.org/az/...ageS652P0.html

I have stayed away from any link from nocirc.com, circumstitions, etc. I think some people will be really turned off just by the url or the home page since they are likely to surf to it.

There is also a great pamphlet from www.coloradonocirc.org that you could print out. It's called Circumcision and the Foreskin: Information for Expectant Parents
Thank you! I will dig through those when I get some down time.....

You have all been very helpful and given me food for thought. Keep the suggestions coming. I need to pull my act together and make a good reliable handout with references so when I tell clients I think there is no reason to circ, I have something to back me up
post #14 of 35
Thread Starter 
I have been thinking about this some more. If you are talking to parents and you know or suspect the man is circ’d, how do you go about saying all the negatives of circ without making them feel akward? It’s tough to make it sound like circing is bad when they are not intact KWIM?
post #15 of 35
Thread Starter 
Ok ladies, I went through a few links and made my own handout that captured a few different sites. Does anyone care to read and see if it sounds ok? I am so happy I posted here and decided to educate myself on this issue. Now I can talk somewhat intelligently to clients. FYI: I have not proof read it yet so no need to point out grammer/spelling errors.

Answers to Questions about Circumcision

What is foreskin and why is it there?
The foreskin consists of as much as half, or more, of the penile skin system and has three known functions: protective, sensory, and sexual. Foreskin protects babies from feces, urine and diaper abrasions by staying attached to the glans though out the early years. Throughout the adult life, the foreskin keeps the glans soft and moist and protects it from trauma. Without this protection, the glans becomes dry, calloused, and desensitized from chafing. Millions of nerve endings in the foreskin enhance sexual pleasure.

What is circumcision and how is it preformed?
Circumcision is the surgical removal of the foreskin. The doctor will insert a clamp or ring between the head of the penis and the foreskin to separate it. The clamp will remain in place in order to protect the rest of the penis so that the foreskin may be cut away. Once the procedure is completed then the wound will be dressed and the child will be returned to his parents.

Is circumcision painful?
Yes, it is painful for a baby. Babies can and do feel pain. Many babies are circumcised without anesthesia so if you decide to have your baby circumcised, make sure to check with your doctor about his policies on anesthesia. The anesthesia procedure itself is painful to a baby as the needle must be inserted into the penis. Babies are not given pain medication while the wound is healing which could take 7-10 days.

What are the risks of circumcision?
The risks include excessive bleeding, infection, complications from anesthesia, surgical mistakes such as loss of glans, extensive scarring, skin tags and bridges, tearing and bleeding at the scar site, curvature of the penis, tight or painful erections, and impotence. All circumcised males lose some or most of the sensitivity in their glans and all of the sensitivity in their foreskin.

What does the medical community say?
There is no longer any national or international public health authority in the western world which advocates the routine circumcision of children, either male or female. The most recent Policy Statement concluded that “data are not sufficient to recommend routine neonatal circumcision’ and that ‘parents should determine what is in the best interest of the child”.

(Page 2 - I will use double sided paper)

Circumcision Myths

Myth: My son will be made fun of if he isn’t circumcised
Fact: Worldwide, only about 10% of males are circumcised. In the United States, circumcision rates have declined from 80% in 1980 to 64% in 1995 and close to 50% today with rates as low at 36% in the West.

Myth:The uncircumcised penis is too hard to take care of and keep clean
Fact: The intact penis is easy to take care of. In fact, until the foreskin begins to retract, no special care is required. Once the foreskin does retract on his own, the child is old enough to retract the foreskin, clean the head of the penis with soap and water, rinse, and then pull the foreskin back over the head of the penis.

Myth: My son will get more urinary tract infections
Fact:Most studies show that uncircumcised male infants have about a 10 fold increase in UTIs, but overall risk of an intact male getting a UTI is relatively low, only about 1%.

Myth:My son is more at risk for STD’s if I don’t circumcise
Fact:The American Academy of Pediatrics says that behavioral factors such as condom use are far more important in determining your risk of STDs and that there are some STDs that are more common in circumcised men.

Myth:My son will be confused because he doesn’t look like his father
Fact:A study has never been done to evaluate psychological harm on the child, when father and son aren’t both circumcised. There are many situations where father and son aren’t the same such as premature infants that are too sick to be circumcised, adoptive fathers, and step-fathers.

Myth: No man should ever be circumcised
Fact:The circumcision of male children is a central feature of both Judaism and Islam. An increasing number of committed Jewish and Muslim people reject circumcision on ethical grounds, although they are certainly the minority at this time.

Resources: American Academy of Pediatrics, Canadian Pediatric Society, www.healthcentral.com, The Pediatric Clinics of North America: VOL 48 No 6 December 2001
post #16 of 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by CanidFL View Post
What are the risks of circumcision?
The risks include excessive bleeding, infection, complications from anesthesia, surgical mistakes such as loss of glans, extensive scarring, skin tags and bridges, tearing and bleeding at the scar site, curvature of the penis, tight or painful erections, and impotence. All circumcised males lose some or most of the sensitivity in their glans and all of the sensitivity in their foreskin.
Sounds good, but if your goal is not to weird out possibly circumcised fathers I would leave out the bolded part. The number of circumcised men who feel that their sexual experience has been diminished is very small and this is could make the fathers feel very defensive about their penises.
post #17 of 35
Just thought I would point out that there are many unbiased links on the anti-RIC side, but I have never seen any on the pro-RIC side.

Becuase the bias is so strong on the pro side, it can give the impression that the anti-RIC side is biased, which I do not think is accurate.

Regards
post #18 of 35
I think you did a wonderful job. Can I suggest maybe including the fact that there is a risk, although a small one, of death resulting from the complications of circumcising an infant? I know that fact alone had a huge impact on me when we were researching it. We had tried for a long time to have our first and the thought that he might be taken from us after all we went through to get him in the first place from a circumcision complication was just unacceptable to us.

Again, I think you did a great job, just wanted to toss that one out there from our personal experience!

Quote:
Originally Posted by CanidFL View Post
What are the risks of circumcision?
The risks include excessive bleeding, infection, complications from anesthesia, surgical mistakes such as loss of glans, extensive scarring, skin tags and bridges, tearing and bleeding at the scar site, curvature of the penis, tight or painful erections, and impotence. [Some of these complications can (rarely) result in death] All circumcised males lose some or most of the sensitivity in their glans and all of the sensitivity in their foreskin.
Take care!
Tara
post #19 of 35
I would also add a history of circ in North America (which is pretty shocking)

Circumcision started in North America in the Puritan 1870s as a cure for masturbation. Masturbation was considered to be evil and sinful and was blamed for all sort of illnesses including blindness, paralysis and mental retardation. http://www.noharmm.org/docswords.htm
post #20 of 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by CanidFL View Post
Is circumcision painful?
Yes, it is painful for a baby. Babies can and do feel pain. Many babies are circumcised without anesthesia so if you decide to have your baby circumcised, make sure to check with your doctor about his policies on anesthesia. The anesthesia procedure itself is painful to a baby as the needle must be inserted into the penis. Babies are not given pain medication while the wound is healing which could take 7-10 days.
I thought healing took 2 weeks or more? Maybe someone else can clarify. If it won't make it too much longer (i'm guessing you want to keep this to 1-2 pages), note that pain relief itself is often inadequate and that a study was done that showed that circ'd boys have a lower threshold for pain than intact ones (the vaccination study).

this
http://www.cirp.org/library/pain/taddio2/

and this
http://www.cnn.com/HEALTH/9712/23/ci...on.anesthetic/
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