The "your un-vaxed kid poses a threat to my vaxed kid" argument...

[mamabtt]

Can someone here give me the deal with this argument. The best I can come up with is that most adults are walking around un-vaccinated and are not making others sick with deadly illnesses. What are the other realities when it comes to this?

[pilesoflaundry]

Well if the persom saying that truly believes in vaccination effectiveness what are they worried about kwim? They must be unsure if the vaxes work.

When I asked my ped how come so many cases of pertussis occur in vaxed people she said it starts with an adult whose immunity wore off or didn't get a booster and then is spread through kids who either didn't get vaxed, didn't complete the series or are older and didn't get a booster. So basically if your going to get something being vaxed doesn't mean much :LOL. I was reading about cases of vaxed kids getting stuff anyway and if a kid comes in contact with something before all the shots are received they can and probably will still catch it. Some kids catch stuff from the vax and then spread that around.

So it seems us un-vaxers have to worry more about the vaxed kids making ours sick not the other way around : .

[dallaschildren]

What about the argument "you have the luxury of not vaccinating your kids because most responsible parents do vaccinate and your kids are safer because of us?"

[Lirael33]

I like the idea of turning the argument back on them and asking them how they can be so concerned if they already vaxed their kid... but it still begs the question.... who REALLY carries these diseases?
Surely the one with the vax would be the carrier rather than the one who has never been exposed? And truly, the exposure to these diseases is fractional compared to the amount of virus put into their child under the guise of "protection"

I hate that argument, it pisses me off... I saw that argument used in Parenting magazine in the advice column...where the magazine TOLD the mother to challenge the one who didn't vax with that stupid argument and actually ASK her to leave the preschool!!!! I cancelled my subscription soon after!

...while we are on the topic of stupid arguments - does anyone have a good one for the "wouldn't you feel horrible if your kid DIED because they got this horrible (insert disease)...? Or wouldn't you feel HORRIBLE if your kid CAUSED an outbreak?

ya- like how can we cause an outbreak of their kids are "protected" ... ?

sounds like propaganda and brainwashing, if you ask me.... another reason we won't bend to the gov'ts will and vaccinate...

[teniprice]

I just had this conversation recently. The mom said she was scared that her child would be in school with unvaxed children. My reply was if she believed that the vaxes worked then she should have no worries about her child being around unvaxed children. That in fact, her child was the one who was putting the other children who were unvaxed in danger of getting any disease.
Yes, I would feel horrible if my child got one of those diseases and got really ill or died, but I would feel horrible if I gave them the vax and they got it and became ill or died or had a bad reaction to the vax. Ya know? The possiblity of them actually getting these diseases is so small, I'm not willing to risk my child with a "what if" situation. That's just me and that's what I tell anyone and everyone who will listen.
I've gotten into many arguements over this whole flu shot thing. I can't wait til winter is over...

[LisainCalifornia]

Part of the problem is that not evey vaccine provides 100% immunity, so that is where the concern comes in that their vaxed child may still catch a disease that they have been vaccinated for.

[shelbean91]

I always thought that was a pretty weak argument, and my kids are mostly vax'd.

[Katana]

These kinds of things just make me : at whoever is asking the questions. It's a no win situation. These questions are asked to incite and stir up, no other reason.

Originally posted by Hilary
Secondly, its not stated out of concern, but out of misplaced anger that someone would do something different, and thereby infer that the person who vaccinated their children, is wrong. The mentality behind that is that the person feels that their thinking processes are being challenged. They couldn't give a toss about the fact that your child isn't vaccinated. They are just hitting out in any way possible, because your inaction has effectively implied that their action was a stupid one. So, they tail in on a concept that the medical profession has artfully cultivated, that to NOT vaccinate, results in putting those who are, at danger.

Exactly.

Originally posted by Lirael33
...while we are on the topic of stupid arguments - does anyone have a good one for the "wouldn't you feel horrible if your kid DIED because they got this horrible (insert disease)...? Or wouldn't you feel HORRIBLE if your kid CAUSED an outbreak?

What parent wouldn't feel bad if their child died, regardless of cause? Illness, car accident, whatever. It's all horrible.

Although I would probably just roll my eyes and say something like, don't YOU feel horrible that you're trying to assign blame for the demise of humanity on my (fill in the age) year old?

Again, as others have stated, if their kids are vaccinated, and vaccines work, what's the problem?

I took the risk, and my child was vaccine damaged, to protect your child from the disease, so why couldn't you have take the risk too?

Oh heavens to Mergatroide. I'll add a

This is like being on the playground and doing the, 'I'll put my tongue on the icy pole if you will' dance. Only doofuses participate in such (il)logic.

Hey, I'm pissy too. But I can't claim PMS :LOL

[TeddysMom]

Oops, dupe post

[TeddysMom]

I have a newborn nephew (doesn't yet have most vax) whose doctor told his parents to stay away from my 3yr old, never vaxed son. Logic tells me my nephew is at more of a risk from vaxed kids because they can be carriers without being sick, whereas if my son is exposed, he'll likely come down with whatever and we'll know it and keep him home. Am I correct in this assumption?

[Katana]

Originally posted by TeddysMom
Logic tells me my nephew is at more of a risk from vaxed kids because they can be carriers without being sick, whereas if my son is exposed, he'll likely come down with whatever and we'll know it and keep him home. Am I correct in this assumption?

In my experience, yes.

I started babysitting other children when my son was 4 months old. He's now almost five, and I've watched a total of seven kids in the last five years, most of them from birth or tiny infancy.

All the kids that came over have been fully vaxed on schedule, antibioticed (I know that's not a word ) and medicated like mad. You would not believe (or maybe you would) the potency of the strains of sickness that they came over here with.

They didn't get sick, they got plague germ sick. There was one girl in particular, who if she stepped into the house with anything, any type of runny nose or cough or fever, I knew the rest of us were toast. Even me. She was a carrier, and a really potent one. By the time she was a year, she'd been on some kind of antibiotic, 40 weeks out of the first 52 of her life.

These poor kids that I watched broke my heart with how sick they were. It was 'normal' for them to run a temperature of almost 103, and the parents would just dose them up on Tylenol or Motrin or something and send them over. They'd be so sick, and so sad. And I would take them, because I didn't want them to have to go to a crowded, noisy, day care center, and also they would sleep at my house.

If my ds or dd got a cold, it never affected the other kids, but almost every time one of the other kids got something, my kids were affected in some way.

[Mommy To Baby Roni]

I think the most ridiculous statements I have heard are...

"I put my child at risk for the well-being of society, therefore you should, too."

And my all-time favorite...

"Your unvaccinated child is like a smoker who spreads cancer in the air with their 2nd hand smoke."

I completely agree with your statements, Hilary, in regards to my decision not to vax indirectly challenging a vaccinating parent's decision and that it tells them I think their decision was wrong & harmful to their child. I think that is why it is often so difficult to debate or discuss the issue. Many vaxing parents say it's an emotional or sensitive issue. I've always looked at it as a scientific issue. I guess that's why it rarely ends well.

[Deborah]

its not just the germ stuff

Besides children spreading illness directly, vaxing messes up unvaxed children indirectly. Having a normal number of childhood illnesses protects kids against asthma and allergies. (there are even medical journal articles making this point) So, by suppressing measles and chickenpox doctors are increasing asthma and allergies even among sensible families that eat right and don't vax. Thanks guys.

Also, as Hilary has mentioned a few times, some vaccinations push out one kind of bacteria, which is then replaced by another strain. I suspect that this phenomenon affects children who are not vaxed, too. Perhaps they cannot get immunity from bf because it is a different strain than the one their mommy already coped with? Something like that.

The point I'm trying to make (clumsily, sorry) is that vaxing is majorly messing up the total human ecology and that our attempt to right things by not vaxing our kids (2% or less of the total) is sort of like people down in the Amazon protecting a few blocks of rain forest while everything else gets chopped down.
T
I'm feeling gloomy tonight. Went to the eye doctor. The good news is there is nothing seriously wrong with my left eye. The bad news is that I'm permanently stuck with weird floaters and slightly blurry vision on that side. Hey, things could be a lot worse.

Nana

[Deborah]

T

I will. Thanks.

Nana

[Candide]

..

[comet]

If they have a really young one - under a year, then I can see where they're coming from. They may have decided to vax, but their kid has not been "fully" vaccinated (whatever that means), so they still feel their child is quite vulnerable. Esp if their child is only a few months old. Being around an un-vax child, esp an older one, maybe a toddler, could expose their chld to a disease they dont' want their child to get.

Did that make sense?

Otherwise, if their kid is older, such as a toddler, and had most of their vaccinations, I really don't see the threat.

[comet]

Regarding the quote :

"What about the argument "you have the luxury of not vaccinating your kids because most responsible parents do vaccinate and your kids are safer because of us?""

I think they're right. Well, they don't need to include the slur aobut being responsible. But it is so much easier to justify not vaxing when most of the people arround you are vacinating their kids.

[pilesoflaundry]

I think unvaxed kids are at more risk. A vaxed kid maybe a carrier but not get sick so you don't know what that kid is walking around with and passing along. Where an unvaxed kid, you will know if they are sick or not and carrying something so they can be isolated from other kids and not make them sick.

Another thing, just think about how many vaxes you got as a kid (if any) and then think of the number of vax they try and give the kids now? It seems there is a vax for everything so the docs make money and the parents don't have to "god/dess forbid" take off work or satay home and care for a sick child : Even in the past 5 years since my first was born they have added 2-3 more shots, how many more will they have in 20 years??

I think this is why all these kids have goofed up immune systems and why we have more diseases in the first place. And you have to wonder with neomyacin and other antibiotics in the vax if vaxed kids are putting all kids at risk for antibiotic resistant disease.

So I don't think that argument has much of a leg to stand on.

[Tanibani]

I agree with Hilary & Pilesof laundry.

The last thing on my mind is that my child is “protected” from diseases because others vax. Please. He is not. He can get the diseases and if so, I take full responsibility for his care during an illness. I am willing to stay up all night over a period of days (weeks if its Pertussis) to help him recover and get better. (A friend of mine in her 50s could not believe the contraversy over vax’s and the pressure on parents to put 20+ shots in their children in the first 2 years “but we all had measles in childhood, it was no big deal.”) The only thing on my mind is that I don’t want my son’s immune system compromised by 1 – 25 shots with dubious ingredients, including thimerosol, which he got in a few shots 3.5 yrs ago.

Vaccines do not provide true, long-term immunity. Babies before age 2 months are now getting Pertussis. Do you know who health officials say are to blame? Teenagers and young adults. Why? Because protection from the vax wanes over time. So these people need boosters for the rest of their lives because they could get Pertussis in adulthood and pass it on to really vulnerable segments of the population. If they got it in childhood (manageable) rather than infancy (can be scary) then it wouldn’t be a problem later on.

USA Today: Whooping Cough: A childhood killer once vanquished is returning 12/9/03

I got Chicken Pox as a child. It was mild. Not fun, but no big deal. No brain damage. : I do not need booster shots for the rest of my life to protect others. I have lifetime immunity. You can’t say that for the kids getting the Varicella vax today.

Furthermore, it is quite enlightening to read the information in medical books for parents/press about Chicken BEFORE the vax and after it was made available. Before the vax, it was a mild childhood disease, now... chicken pox is a "potentially deadly disease" with the sole focus on the rare, worse case side-effects. They are FEEDING the fears of the public. No wonder parents rush to doctors offices lining up for shots for their kids. No wonder people are afraid of unvax'd kids. There is a lot they don't know.

[CerridwenLorelei]

I hate this argument

makes me roll my eyes at that same sentence..


"magazine TOLD the mother to challenge the one who didn't vax with that stupid argument and actually ASK her to leave the preschool!!!!


Isn't that up to the PRESCHOOL and not the other mother as to who attends or doesn't??? Maybe the unvaxed kids mom should ask the other one to leave for being misinformed?





What about the argument "you have the luxury of not vaccinating your kids because most responsible parents do vaccinate and your kids are safer because of us?""



"I think they're right. "..:

Well I don't. Just because we no longer vax does NOT make us irresponsible parents. It is because we are responsible and did what we needed to do and learn after having one of those kids VAERS exsists for. And I don't think my kid is safer just because you vax...

You must live in a different area if it is easier to justify non vaxing than vaxing because it is total opposite here..: