book- "Misquoting Jesus" - Page 2

[Suzukimom]

Originally Posted by hrsmom

Hi Carol- That is a tragedy, wow. I'll pray for comfort and healing for the people affected.

I was just going to say that I need you to come watch Hannah so I can keep reading that book! J/K. I did get in about 40 minutes today during her nap, and it was nice! I am enjoying it! He revisits the concept of two (or more) Gods in chapter 5. He talks about how there were lots of different beliefs among Christians, lots of things people truly believed were the teachings of Jesus, but were different from one group to the next. I'd love to read his book "Lost Christianities" (or something like that.) That stuff is very interesting to me!

It's interesing how many variations there are in the GREEK, not to mention the various translations! This book was a good choice!

I'd love to watch Hannah. I'm home alone tonight. Dh and son are at a volleyball tournament and dd went to a party. I

I did finish Chapter 4 today I'm going to tackle Chapter 5 tomorrow. I'm interested in "Lost Christianities" as well. I'm glad you're liking the book. I wonder how the rest of the group is doing with it.

[Suzukimom]

Originally Posted by hrsmom

Carol, you ask such good questions! I don't have much opinion on the church traditions at the moment, though! I grew up in a Lutheran church, that has some of the traditions "carried over" from the Catholic church. I did like the structure, I kind of miss that in my current church. I haven't read Pagan Christianity yet!

I guess I'm just questioning everything right now!

Thanks but I guess I'm just trying to sort this all out, just like you. I grew up in a mainline church which had traditions. The evangelical church we attended didn't recite creeds and rarely even said the Lord's prayer. I wonder who wrote all the liturgies that are used in many churches.

I think there is something to be said about tradition. I've been questioning how some came into being - pastors wearing robes, sitting in a pew, wearing Sunday best to church, a wafer and tiny cup of juice for communion - things like that. "Pagan Christianity" answered some of those questions but the authors are conservative in their theology.

Here's another question. Is the original; scriptures, early church, etc. necessarily the best?

[hrsmom]

I think we've lost some of our group! But we have a nice little group here, that's good! We should start thinking about our next book.

I did finish the book. My daughter had two days in a row where she took naps in bed rather than on me so of course I used the time as productively as I could imagine: in bed next to her reading! Heaven!

Bart (if I may call him that!) has a nice summary at the end about his take on people changing the texts. It makes sense, what he says. I'll let you read it. (I think Heather mentioned that she finished the book already.)

I also (like the author) think the Bible is a human book, and I actually like that about it.

Every time I sit down with the book I think of something I want to write, about something I read in the beginning, but it leaves my mind when I'm in front of my computer! Hmmm......

As for is the original necessarily the best? Good question. We could assume the originals are best in some ways, because those people knew Jesus, or knew people who knew Jesus. But again, they're just people. It's always people writing the books, telling the stories, transcribing the texts, and it's people reading and interpreting the texts as well. (This is part of what the author talks about in the end.) The apostle Paul has amazing writings, and his encounter was with the risen Jesus, rather than the pre-crucified Jesus.

I also think it's important what the Bible is to a person. Is it a cook book with instructions for life? Is it a manual? Is it a guide? The ultimate source for theology? The ultimate answer to the ultimate question? To me it's none of those things, although I have viewed it differently at different parts of my life. In my understanding, it's a collection of spiritual writings. I also wonder how people can call it a "love letter" from God. In my journey as a Christian, I kept waiting for it to seem like a love letter from God to me, but it never did! I'm not going to wait for that anymore.

That's all for now!

[hkowell1]

As far as another book goes, I would be interested in reading "gospels" that didn't make the cut...

[the_lissa]

I'm reading this book. I am really enjoying it, so i'm going to sub.

[athansor]

I'm only on Ch. 2, but working to catch up. When I ordered the book, I also got a copy of Eye of the Storm by Gene Robinson. That might be a nice choice for the next book. I'm looking forward to reading it when I finish this one.

[hrsmom]

Originally Posted by hkowell1

As far as another book goes, I would be interested in reading "gospels" that didn't make the cut...

Who wrote that one? (ETA: or are you alking about reading The Gospel of Thomas, for example)

I just started a book by Bishop Spong that also goes into the historical development of the new testament documents. Interesting! I didn't know this is what I'd be reading right now, but I am enjoying it!

athansor, what do you think so far?

the_lissa, what do you think so far?

[Suzukimom]

Originally Posted by hrsmom

I think we've lost some of our group! But we have a nice little group here, that's good! We should start thinking about our next book.

I did finish the book. My daughter had two days in a row where she took naps in bed rather than on me so of course I used the time as productively as I could imagine: in bed next to her reading! Heaven!

Bart (if I may call him that!) has a nice summary at the end about his take on people changing the texts. It makes sense, what he says. I'll let you read it. (I think Heather mentioned that she finished the book already.)

I also (like the author) think the Bible is a human book, and I actually like that about it.

Every time I sit down with the book I think of something I want to write, about something I read in the beginning, but it leaves my mind when I'm in front of my computer! Hmmm......

As for is the original necessarily the best? Good question. We could assume the originals are best in some ways, because those people knew Jesus, or knew people who knew Jesus. But again, they're just people. It's always people writing the books, telling the stories, transcribing the texts, and it's people reading and interpreting the texts as well. (This is part of what the author talks about in the end.) The apostle Paul has amazing writings, and his encounter was with the risen Jesus, rather than the pre-crucified Jesus.

I also think it's important what the Bible is to a person. Is it a cook book with instructions for life? Is it a manual? Is it a guide? The ultimate source for theology? The ultimate answer to the ultimate question? To me it's none of those things, although I have viewed it differently at different parts of my life. In my understanding, it's a collection of spiritual writings. I also wonder how people can call it a "love letter" from God. In my journey as a Christian, I kept waiting for it to seem like a love letter from God to me, but it never did! I'm not going to wait for that anymore.

That's all for now!

I finished Chapter 5. I may get some reading done in the car tomorrow as I travel to my mother's. I hope to finish it up.

I agree and think probably the originals are more accurate. On the other hand... An analogy would be how editors improve upon an authors work. They might change a word to better express the meaning of the text. However, if the Bible is inerrant as some claim, then it wouldn't have needed "editing."

I too, have viewed the Bible differently at different time in my life. Now I see it as a human product containing a history of a people, the story of Jesus, some poetry, wisdom in different styles of writing - as you said- a collection. The love letter stuff doesn't work with me either. Also, the thought that daily Bible reading will keep you spiritually sound. I've tried that - felt guilty if I didn't but really didn't get all that much from reading through the Bible - although it was a good exercise in that I know the scope of the Bible. I can't say it improved my life or felt like a love letter.

Originally Posted by hkowell1

As far as another book goes, I would be interested in reading "gospels" that didn't make the cut...

I know Elaine Pagels has written about the Gospel of Thomas.

Originally Posted by athansor

I'm only on Ch. 2, but working to catch up. When I ordered the book, I also got a copy of Eye of the Storm by Gene Robinson. That might be a nice choice for the next book. I'm looking forward to reading it when I finish this one.

Gene Robinson is the gay Episcopal Bishop, right? He was featured on the documentary "The Bible Tells Me So."

Originally Posted by hrsmom

Who wrote that one? (ETA: or are you alking about reading The Gospel of Thomas, for example)

I just started a book by Bishop Spong that also goes into the historical development of the new testament documents. Interesting! I didn't know this is what I'd be reading right now, but I am enjoying it!

athansor, what do you think so far?

the_lissa, what do you think so far?

What is the name of the Spong book? I'm going to raid my father's bookshelf this weekend. He had a lot of Spong, Crossan, and Borg. I sure wish he was around so we could discuss all this. While he was living, I didn't understand. Now I do.

[hrsmom]

The Spong book is called Liberating the Gospels, with a subtitle of something like reading the gospels through Jewish eyes. It is fascinating, and I'll write a little more about it when I have more time. Gotta go!

[Leta]

I really enjoyed this book. But then, I am a history nerd.

I felt bad for the author, in the beginning when he realized Mark made a mistake (naming the king son's as the king at the time of a story in the gospel) and then realizing that the mustard seed wasn't, in fact, the smallest of all the world's seeds, and then, from there, more or less losing is his way in his faith because he no longer thought that the Bible was the inerrant word of God.

I have never thought that, so it is not a "thing" for me to read this book, but man, I felt bad for the author. Like having the rug yanked out from under you.

This is part of the reason that for me, faith and dogma are best kept separate, but that's not within the scope of this thread.

Not to be a spoiler, so I'm trying to keep it vague, but my favorite parts were about the "serpent" passage at the end of Mark, and Paul's contradictory statements on the role of women. Good stuff!

[the_lissa]

Yeah that must be hard.

You know, I never realized there were people who took the Bible literally and thought of it as inerrant until I was an adult.

I grew up Catholic, and wento Catholic school from JK to university. The first thing we learned in grade nine religion is that the Bible holds spiritual truth, not literal truth.

[athansor]

Well, I'm on to chapter 2, and so far am loving it. I'm also a big history buff, and have always been interested in Church history (as well as anything to do with the Middle Ages....longtime SCAer here!).
One thing, though, that gives me a bit of pause is that I read some of the interviews with the author (and heard him on NPR a while back), and it sort of makes me sad that he is agnostic. For various reasons, it's important to me to have faith in an afterlife. It doesn't have to be the traditional Christian version, in fact, I have a more universal view of the afterlife, and don't discount the possibility of reincarnation. It does seem to me sometimes, though, that when one seriously studies the Bible and the origins of the Christian faith, it becomes hard to hold on to any part of that faith. I think that in some ways, one could even characterize Spong as an agnostic. I hope it's possible to view the Bible and the faith with a well studied and logical eye without losing faith.

Gene Robinson is the gay Episcopal Bishop, right? He was featured on the documentary "The Bible Tells Me So."

Yes, that's him. I've heard really good things about his book.

[hrsmom]

Leta, I keep meaning to comment on that story about the author's long thesis on why Mark named the wrong king, and his professor just said "maybe Mark made a mistake." That was really something!

The book I'm reading (which I picked up at the library the day I tried to get Misquoting Jesus, but it was missing from my library) really has my head spinning. : (Liberating the Gospels by Spong) It's also historical, and fits in nicely with MJ. He shows how the first three gospels were written as liturgical material to be read each Sabbath/Sunday and follow the Jewish weekly readings of the Torah. It's pretty impressive! Some of the things he points out I had noticed and wondered about. He makes a convincing case for the fact that the gospels aren't meant to be historical records at all, which is what has my head spinning! Kind of like a rug-yanking for me, but I was ready to have the rug yanked out from under me! It makes total sense! That's a new idea to me, though. He definitely presents the material in a liberating way. Sorry to go on about a different book, but I wanted to mention it!

[hrsmom]

Originally Posted by athansor

I think that in some ways, one could even characterize Spong as an agnostic. I hope it's possible to view the Bible and the faith with a well studied and logical eye without losing faith.

In the book "Liberating the Gospels" which is the only Spong book I've ever read, he does speak to this idea. What he says is that if you're looking for the Bible to be something that it isn't, for example an actual eyewitness account in some cases when it was not written that way, then finding out it isn't what you thought it was can be a blow to faith. But he says we can keep looking beyond that and try to see what the writers did see, because there's no denying that SOMETHING happened with Jesus' life and death. I hope I summed that up OK.

Suzukimom, as for the originals being better or not, Ehrman does mention that sometimes the changes that scholars discover are changes designed to clarify the original intent anyway. But also some of the changes had a political, theological, or social agenda! And some of course were just mistakes. So interesting!

That Liberating the Gospels book should have come with a warning!!! It just sat there innocently on the library shelf, and I checked it out and read it, and wow!!

Again, sorry to go on about this other book, I just think it goes so nicely with the book we're actually discussing!

[Suzukimom]

I'm back! I spent most of last week at my mother's and I was able to finish the Misquoting Jesus. I liked what he had to say but now I can't remember it!

I did pick up a couple Spong books from my dad's library but unfortunately I don't have the one you're reading Kimberly. It sounds interesting.

For a lighter book on the Bible, I can recommend The Year of Living Biblically. The author shows how people really pick and choose how to follow the Bible based on their beliefs. He visits Applachian snake handlers, Jerry Falwell, talks with Tony Campolo, and references Borg. Two thirds of the book is living the OT and one third the NT. This book made me laugh out loud.

How are others doing on Misquoting?

[hrsmom]

Hi Carol! I thought you might be getting home from your mom's soon! I'll check out that book. I'm re-reading Velvet Elvis, because I finished the other one and I like to read something while Hannah is napping. Reading that book again is good timing for me.

Here's a discussion question- not a very creative one, but a discussion question nonetheless: Has your view of the Bible changed since reading this book?

Here's another: regardless of your answer to the previous question, what were some key elements to this book that spoke to you?

[Suzukimom]

Originally Posted by hrsmom

Hi Carol! I thought you might be getting home from your mom's soon! I'll check out that book. I'm re-reading Velvet Elvis, because I finished the other one and I like to read something while Hannah is napping. Reading that book again is good timing for me.

Here's a discussion question- not a very creative one, but a discussion question nonetheless: Has your view of the Bible changed since reading this book?

Here's another: regardless of your answer to the previous question, what were some key elements to this book that spoke to you?

I haven't read Velvet Elvis. I do have Rob Bell's most recent book though but have yet to finish it.

Good questions!
I first read the book last summer and it did confirm my beliefs that were just starting to emerge. I used to think the Bible was "God's holy word" and never really considered how it was "put together." I believed that God wrote the Bible through humans, it was God breathed.

This belief has definitely been challenged. Now I believe the Bible is a human production, not inerrant, but still sacred. It's sacred because it tells a history of a people and of an amazing person - Jesus Christ. I hold the words of the Bible more loosely - not attaching my being to them, if that makes sense.

One thing that I found interesting is the adaptations of the text which were made to counter the various groups such as the adoptionistic. I'm interested to the adoptionists view that Jesus was fully human and adopted to be God's son at his baptism.
It's interesting that there were so many differing views of Jesus in the early centuries after his death.

Another point that struck me was the attractiveness of Jesus's message to women and how countrercultural the early church was to include them in leadership. Yet some scribes felt they needed to inject their viewpoints into the text which has given us some controversial verses such as those found in 1 Timothy 2.

I'm interested to learn more about the books that were left out of the canon.

[hrsmom]

I thought I might actually pick up my Bible last night and read it a bit! I felt a lot lighter reading it, for some reason. Like the parts that never made sense to me do have some kind of explanation, and I don't need to "take it on faith" that these things are supposed to make sense. When I first became a Christian as an adult (a little over five years ago) I remember SO MUCH of what I was "supposed" to believe just didn't make sense. So to me faith, in a way, was believing things that don't make sense!

Are we ready to pick another book? (We can keep discussing this one if people are still finishing up!) This same author has the book Lost Christianities and also a book about texts that didn't make it into the Bible, it's called Lost Scriptures, something something something. I'm up for either of those, or something by a different author.

I was just on the amazon website and there's a book written in response to Misquoting Jesus, written by a pastor. It didn't get very good reviews, though. I think it's called Misquoting Truth.

[Suzukimom]

Originally Posted by hrsmom

I thought I might actually pick up my Bible last night and read it a bit! I felt a lot lighter reading it, for some reason. Like the parts that never made sense to me do have some kind of explanation, and I don't need to "take it on faith" that these things are supposed to make sense. When I first became a Christian as an adult (a little over five years ago) I remember SO MUCH of what I was "supposed" to believe just didn't make sense. So to me faith, in a way, was believing things that don't make sense!

Are we ready to pick another book? (We can keep discussing this one if people are still finishing up!) This same author has the book Lost Christianities and also a book about texts that didn't make it into the Bible, it's called Lost Scriptures, something something something. I'm up for either of those, or something by a different author.

I was just on the amazon website and there's a book written in response to Misquoting Jesus, written by a pastor. It didn't get very good reviews, though. I think it's called Misquoting Truth.

I just wanted to check in. Has anyone made more progress with the book?
I'll look at our original thread to see what other books were suggested. I think I'm ready to start something new.

[hrsmom]

Hi Carol! I saw your post and then got sidetracked. Crazy couple of days! I should look at that list, too. I'm up for another book! Should we revive the thread or perhaps start a new one?