Catholic non-vaxers, how do you justify the stance on vaccines?

[claddaghmom]

I hope this is in the right place. I was considering the spiritual forum.


To those Catholics who do not vaccinate: how does the Church's undogmatic (aka taught by church leaders but not a theological requirement to salvation) stance on vaccines and vaccination jibe with you?

Here is a link:
http://www.catholicnews.com/data/sto...ns/0504240.htm

I found myself grimacing throughout the article. I understand they are writing from an assumption that vaccines are 1) necessary, 2) safe and 3) effective. But it actually scared me to hear a bit of the "one must sacrifice their children to save others" argument. I find that to be almost unCatholic.

I also was really surprised to see vaccines win over the abortion topic. Catholics have always been really strong on that, yet the one thing they minimize it for are vaccines.

This has me pretty troubled! I would love for this to be discussed without any animosity. I think I just brought up the trifecta on this post lol, but sensitivity would be nice as this is close to my heart. Thanks!

[spero]

In a nutshell, I think they're wrong.

But then ... I think the Church is wrong on a lot of things, so that's not a stretch for me.

[spero]

Good thread on this topic

[Gitti]

Some years ago someone showed me proof that the Vatican owns the majority stock in a pharmaceutical company that markets birth control pills. Since then it has become clear to me why they condone vaccines that are grown on aborted fetal tissue.

[claddaghmom]

Originally Posted by Gitti

Some years ago someone showed me proof that the Vatican owns the majority stock in a pharmaceutical company that markets birth control pills. Since then it has become clear to me why they condone vaccines that are grown on aborted fetal tissue.

lol, that's a PR mistake!

[spero]

Originally Posted by Gitti

Some years ago someone showed me proof that the Vatican owns the majority stock in a pharmaceutical company that markets birth control pills. Since then it has become clear to me why they condone vaccines that are grown on aborted fetal tissue.

Link to this evidence?

[Turquesa]

Originally Posted by spero

Link to this evidence?

I'm eager to see this, as well.

[applejuice]

... I find that to be almost unCatholic.

It is. Parents are supposed to be able to make decisions for their own children.

I was raised Roman Catholic, with eight years in Catholic School. I was ridiculed for not being vaccinated. I was hard to hide the fact since everyone lined up at the school nurse's office for vaccinations, except for me. It was rather obvious.

[Turquesa]

OP, I'm troubled by this, as well. I'd like to hear from more Catholics if they're out there . . .

[applejuice]

Originally Posted by Gitti

Some years ago someone showed me proof that the Vatican owns the majority stock in a pharmaceutical company that markets birth control pills. Since then it has become clear to me why they condone vaccines that are grown on aborted fetal tissue.

Yes, that is true. I have known that since the good Catholic Dr. John Rock developed the birth control pill from his research on poor women in Boston. http://www.gladwell.com/2000/2000_03_10_a_rock.htm

According to Dr. David Reuben, M.D., who wrote Everything You Have Always Wanted To Know About Sex, *But Was Afraid To Ask, the Catholic Church also gave the BCP to its own nuns in the Belgian Congo during the MauMau uprising in the early 1960s.

[claddaghmom]

Originally Posted by applejuice

Yes, that is true. I have known that since the good Catholic Dr. John Rock developed the birth control pill from his research on poor women in Boston. http://www.gladwell.com/2000/2000_03_10_a_rock.htm

According to Dr. David Reuben, M.D., who wrote Everything You Have Always Wanted To Know About Sex, *But Was Afraid To Ask, the Catholic Church also gave the BCP to its own nuns in the Belgian Congo during the MauMau uprising in the early 1960s.

Was this when the BCP was for menstrual issues? : Still trying to figure this out.

lol, I posted my OP on another Catholic group. Biggest mistake of my life. I was just looking for discussion.

I'm being told right now that:

- we have a social contract and have to vaccinate our kids for the greater good.

-Jesus sacrificed himself for the good of many and vaccines require us to do the same

-The abortion for the fetal cell lines happened a long time ago so the past is past and we can use those vaccines

-The issue of using an aborted fetus is the same as donating organs from a murdered man. (End justifies the mean? How is this Catholic??!!!)

-And Paul Offit is a really learned guy that I should read up on so that I can become more educated and not be "outside the realms of science". (That was probably the worst of all hahaha bombshell).



OMG what have I done.

[applejuice]

No, Dr. John Rock thought that the BCP was a natural form of BCP. He was shocked when the Catholic Church did not accept his form of birth control. It is in the link I provided.

He had been doing research for decades. Part of his research helped to develop DES, another wonder drug.

[claddaghmom]

Originally Posted by applejuice

No, Dr. John Rock thought that the BCP was a natural form of BCP. He was shocked when the Catholic Church did not accept his form of birth control. It is in the link I provided.

He had been doing research for decades. Part of his research helped to develop DES, another wonder drug.

Sorry, I posted then I skimmed the link. Interesting history, gtg soon can't read it all. Let me ask sorry if it's in the article but are you saying the Vatican clarified church teaching (aka nothing to separate the unity/creativity) but then went and bought stock in the thing they were condemning? Or did it happen some other way? That's so strange.

[smocklets]

Originally Posted by spero

Link to this evidence?

I'd be interested in this proof as well.

[claddaghmom]

and now this:


And this from the Institute of Catholic Bioethics: “Mandating neonatal male circumcision is an effective therapy that has minimal risks, is cost efficient and will save human lives. To deny individuals access to this effective thereapy is to deny them the dignity and respect all persons deserve. Neonatal male circumcision is medically necessary and ethically imperative” [115a]

Footnote: The author of this website chaired the Circumcision session at the 4th International AIDS Society Conference in July 2007."

[caro113]

Okay, I'm going to jump right the circ part, as others have already brought up the aborted fetuses deal.

Originally, in medieval Europe, masturbation was considered to be the cause of blindness, alcoholism, mental problems (I think adultery too). Since the Catholic church was also on the rise at this point, it came up with a great solution to prevent men from masturbating: cut off the most sensitive part of the penis. Hence, routine circ of baby boys.

Unfortunately, until we get religion out of politics, things will continue to be this way. I feel the Catholic church is extremely hypocritical (and I was raise Catholic, sent to Catholic school and everything) The church tells you to pray for forgiveness and every Sunday before mass starts, you are to pray for forgiveness of your sins, and that no man above God. They encourage a personal relationship with God and require - yes, require, because if you don't, then are not a Catholic anymore, by their standards at least - attendance at church. And apparently vaccines as well.
Jesus taught that true followers do not need to flaunt their beliefs, as that is something the heathens do, and that they should have a personal relationship with God in private. Yet, the church requires you attend to mass They tell you that no man is above God and to pray for forgiveness, yet require you to go to confession (and force you if you are in school .. and then call home when you refuse) The church came out against birth control, saying that a woman should have as many children as God sees fit. But it says nothing about woman using fertility drugs. (I'm not saying I'm against that, I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy)
Yes, Jesus died for all our sins - accord to the church - but God also made our bodies. And he made them perfect in every way. So why would I compromise such a perfect work of art by bombarding it with toxins? Why would I destroy such a beautiful gift? How exactly would God feel if I took his beautiful work of art and loaded it with toxins? Especially toxins that could kill my child, my perfect made-in-his-image, gift from God, child? How?
The 'God made us perfect' argument is the same argument for why the church should accept homo/bisexuals, but the 'why would I bombard his beautiful work of art with toxins' it is also the exact same argument for why the church preaches against ingesting alcohol and over eating ... hmmm

I really cannot understand how the church can be so against abortions as it is (picketing against it, and some of those radicals bombing drs offices and cars - essencially killing people which I have also always found to be stupid .. killing to stop killing) but be all for vaccines that have aborted fetuses in them. How is that anything like donating the organs of a murdered man? How? That man decided to be an organ donor. That fetus did not.

Sorry, I went really off topic here. I really get fired up about religion, which is kind of funny since I describe myself as a "recovering Catholic". I really find religion fascinating, so please do not take anything I have said rudely. I mean no offense to anyone about any religion. I just find it interesting. I just happen to know more about Catholicism bc I was raise as one.

[ema-adama]

Originally Posted by claddaghmom

lol, I posted my OP on another Catholic group. Biggest mistake of my life. I was just looking for discussion.

I'm being told right now that:

- we have a social contract and have to vaccinate our kids for the greater good.

-Jesus sacrificed himself for the good of many and vaccines require us to do the same

-The abortion for the fetal cell lines happened a long time ago so the past is past and we can use those vaccines

-The issue of using an aborted fetus is the same as donating organs from a murdered man. (End justifies the mean? How is this Catholic??!!!)

-And Paul Offit is a really learned guy that I should read up on so that I can become more educated and not be "outside the realms of science". (That was probably the worst of all hahaha bombshell).



OMG what have I done.

. That is quite scary. :

I also find the issue of vaccination and religion facinating. Particularly when people who abide very strictly by the obligations of the religion are able to explain them away in order to support vaccination.

In the Jewish religion Pork is a forbidden food to eat. I do not know halacha (Jewish Law) very intimately, so I do not know if it is OK to inject pork and you just are not allowed to eat it and that is why it is OK to be vaccinated, OR

It is assumed that vaccines are safe, effective and necessary so Pikuach Nefesh is used to over ride the pork put into the body. Pikuach Nefesh is the obligation to save life. So, if you believed that vaccination was saving human life I guess pork in vaccines is a non issue.

I would be interested in what the Muslim Laws say about this as pork is also a forbidden food in that religion.

But maybe best open another thread on that..... sorry for going a bit off topic.

[justice'smom]

There actually is a group of Catholics, trying to fight aborted fetal tissue in vaccines. http://www.cogforlife.org/donations.htm Not sure if that is the best site to go to, but that just happens to be one thing I could find with an e-mail they sent me. I'm not Catholic, but also don't believe in aborted fetal tissue being used. I don't believe in vaccines at all, but definantly don't believe in the aborted fetal tissue being used.

[caro113]

There's actually a group of "christian doctors" that use vaccines without aborted fetuses. I think. I'll have to look it up again. I found something when I was looking for a doctor who would take DD without being vaxed. I'll let you know.

[spero]

Originally Posted by caro113

There's actually a group of "christian doctors" that use vaccines without aborted fetuses. I think. I'll have to look it up again. I found something when I was looking for a doctor who would take DD without being vaxed. I'll let you know.

Most "acceptable" alternatives for AFC vaccines are not available in the US.