MTHFR, salicylates and adrenals - Page 3

[WuWei]

perstephone, not sure of your child's age. I'm feeling certain that we have the MTHFR gene issue. So, I'm researching the holistic path to opening the detox pathways (from Whome's advanced study links), BEFORE initiating any (expensive!) supplements which only address a single variable, without the bigger picture.

My *trust* is in whole foods as nourishment for the body and am learning about how important the METHOD of food preparation is to nutrient bio-availability. Taking pills which are not bio-available, or not in combination with other essential minerals, vitamins and probiotics seems to be a bandaide approach, in my paradigm. Additionally, it disrupts the natural balance that the body has.

For instance, grinding and soaking whole grains in an acid medium increases the nutrient availability about 400%. Sue Gregg has a 'Blender Batter' method of baking which is so easy and you get whole food benefits. http://www.suegregg.com/recipes/brea...erwafflesA.htm
http://www.rebuild-from-depression.c.../Chapter13.pdf

Homemade bone broths are nutrient rich in the following vitamins and minerals: calcium but also magnesium, phosphorus, silicon, sulphur and trace minerals, chondroitin sulphates and glucosamine, gelatin, Hyaluronic acid, collagen, amino acid-glycine, promotes the secretion of HCl in the stomach for digestion- which is critical to B-vitamins, folic acid, calcium and magnesium absorption, sodium, potassium, protein, etc. The minerals in broth are easily absorbed by the body. You can use it to make soups, sauces, cook rice, or even sip it as a tea. Simple to simmer and an ideal food source of nutrients!
http://www.westonaprice.org/foodfeatures/broth.html
http://www.chesapeakegardens.com/art...y.benefits.pdf
http://www.townsendletter.com/FebMar.../broth0205.htm

Whole food probiotics. Don't get me started!! But, Kefir and whole food probiotics are an essential aspect to nutrient absorption, ph balance in the body, immune system support, bio-availability of B12, B1, and vitamin K, other B vitamins, such as folic acid, pantothenic acid, and B12, an excellent source of biotin, loads of calcium and magnesium -- both of which are critical for a healthy nervous system, essential amino acid- tryptophan, 37+ major strains of beneficial microbials (probiotics), helps the digestion of lactose, strengthens the immune system, provides amino acids, enzymes, AND is an antioxidant.

http://coproweb.free.fr/kefiranglais.htm
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=203282
http://etd.sun.ac.za/jspui/bitstream...13/1/PowJE.pdf

Green Juices! They are loaded with antioxidants, vitamins, minerals, enzymes and complete amino acids (protein)!
http://gotgreensrevolution.com/green-smoothie.html

These are MUCH cheaper and more bio-available sources of nutrition, imo.


Pat

[perstephone]

Pat- he's almost 3- birthday is the end of March.
See, whole-foods being more bio-available, I'm there! I get that. That's part of why we switched to the 'regular' multi from the 'special' one. I couldn't justify the added expense when I thought we were doing ok without it, but I didn't want to 'do nothing', either. We do homemade yogurt every morning. I'd give kefir a shot. We use the juicer. We don't soak grains, but I'm game for that. Bone broth, too. I'm interested in starting to do some saurkraut or other fermented stuff, but haven't gotten too far down that path while trying to figure out this failsafe-salicylcate-whatever thing.
We have chickens for eggs (not laying yet, but I figure eventually they will). Until then, though, we get our eggs from the nice lady at the farmers' market, she has a free ranging mixed breed flock.

I think we have a pretty good diet, mostly. But I totally missed the salicylate thing. We knew he was sensitive to tomatoes, and every other reaction just seemed so random. With an entire extra chromosome... well, can we counter that just with food? I don't know. I'd like to believe it, but I do wonder about the easiest and fastest and least processed way to help out that methyl cycle with a big overexpression of SOD and homocysteine. I wonder if by doing the additional B12 and TMG and folinic acid we can just eat well for the rest?

I appreciate the time you are taking to help me out, way big time. Thanks so much.

[WuWei]

Regarding the yogurt vs. the kefir, here is an old post about the differences.

"Homemade yogurt that is fermented for 24 hours, will have an average concentration of 3 billion cfu/mL of yogurt. If you were to eat a small bowl (500 ml) of 24 hour fermented homemade yogurt, you would receive 1.5 trillion beneficial bacteria - 100 times more bacteria than a 15 billion capsule.

Furthermore, freshly made kefir can have an average microbial count as high as 10 billion cfu/ml. This includes a mixture of various bacteria and yeast strains. This means that a 500 ml glass of homemade kefir could contain as many as 5 trillion beneficial microorganisms or even more!"
http://www.healingcrow.com/ferfun/co...onspiracy.html

"Both kefir and yogurt are cultured milk products... ...but they contain different types of beneficial bacteria. Yogurt contains transient beneficial bacteria that keep the digestive system clean and provide food for the friendly bacteria that reside there. But kefir can actually colonize the intestinal tract, a feat that yogurt cannot match.

Kefir contains several major strains of friendly bacteria not commonly found in yogurt, Lactobacillus Caucasus, Leuconostoc, Acetobacter species, and Streptococcus species.

It also contains beneficial yeasts, such as Saccharomyces kefir and Torula kefir, which dominate, control and eliminate destructive pathogenic yeasts in the body. They do so by penetrating the mucosal lining where unhealthy yeast and bacteria reside, forming a virtual SWAT team that housecleans and strengthens the intestines. Hence, the body becomes more efficient in resisting such pathogens as E. coli and intestinal parasites.

Kefir's active yeast and bacteria provide more nutritive value than yogurt by helping digest the foods that you eat and by keeping the colon environment clean and healthy.

Because the curd size of kefir is smaller than yogurt, it is also easier to digest, which makes it a particularly excellent, nutritious food for babies, invalids and the elderly, as well as a remedy for digestive disorders."
http://www.kefir.net/kefiryogurt.htm

Pat

[WuWei]

Regarding the green juice, use mineral water or coconut water.

Which green vegetables have you tried directly? What about kale, collards, Swiss Chard, Romaine lettuce, beet greens, cucumber, celery, spinach, watercress, parsley, bock choy, cabbage, asparagus, wheat grass, alfalfa sprouts, Steamed or raw? Steamed or well cooked vegetables help to break down the proteins. Green juices have all the amino acids already broken down for protein assimilation. So, if there is a chance you add several green vegetables and fruits to try in a juice, you might be amazed at the benefit. My priority is usable protein and fats. It is a balance. There are tons of B vitamins in it.

Add liver, grind it and add it to any other cooked meat or broth. I've found that the 100% grass-fed beef liver is quite mild, surprisingly. Much less texture and (smell) and taste than chicken liver (which seemed very livery).

Kelp, is another thing to add for vitamins. Throw it into broth, soups, saute, stir-fry, smoothies.

The blender batter and the bone broths are so easy! I was shocked at the nutritive benefits. We use non-gluten grains. You can also get sprouted grain flour which doesn't have some of the gluten issues. And soak it in an acid medium, for baking. Sue Gregg has a bunch of recipes on her website.

Coconut oil is another important medium chain fatty acid which is essential to many nutrition absorption issues in the gut. It helps bifidum to grow, and improves the ph of the gut, kills off candida, is a healthy fat.

I haven't tackled making fermented vegetables yet. I like the Bubbies dill pickles and sauerkraut. They have active live cultures, per my understanding. Not heated, no pasteurization. And it is easy.

TMG is Betaine (trimethylglycine), the trimethylated compound of the amino acid glycine. Which is in Bone Broths!
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...8/ai_103194443

Main food sources of betaine: spinach, beets, (wheat), red meat, seafood, (beer), oranges, orange juice. http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/83/4/905/T2
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full...0range/betaine
/functional%20food/betaine_nutraceuticals_en.htm
http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/133/12/4135

My concern with single nutrient supplementation, is that initially, they thought that you only needed folic acid to lower homocysteine levels. And then they thought that lowering homocysteine levels alone was beneficial, but the outcomes were not improved. Then they decided you needed B12, then B6, now betaine, and and and. Whole foods provide the breadth and depth of nutrients in combination. AND in the medium conducive to bio-availability. For instance, the HCl (proper ph) in the stomach is necessary for the betaine to be absorbed. http://www.oralchelation.com/ingred/betaine.htm

B12 food sources: http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?t...rient&dbid=107 LIVER, snapper, shrimp, scallops, salmon, beef.

Folic acid food sources: http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?t...trient&dbid=63 Legumes, beans, asparagus, spinach, collard greens, romaine lettuce, turnip greens, parsley, kelp, broccoli, cauliflower, beets, celery. I love this non-profit site "World's Healthies Foods". Here is a list of essential nutrients and which foods are most nutrient dense: http://www.whfoods.com/nutrientstoc.php
And the most nutrient dense foods to include in our diet: http://www.whfoods.com/foodstoc.php

LIVER.


HTH, Pat

[Theloose]

Originally Posted by WuWei

TMG is Betaine (trimethylglycine), the trimethylated compound of the amino acid glycine. Which is in Bone Broths!
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...8/ai_103194443

You are amazing! And can I just say that I'm completely in love with the concept of traditional foods right now?

[WuWei]

Originally Posted by whoMe

cool link detailing all the genes involved:
http://heartfixer.com/AMRI-Nutrigenomics.htm

OMG, my head hurts too. I've only read about 1/3, and am about sick with what I've learned. :::sigh:::


Pat

[WuWei]

Originally Posted by whoMe

You are amazing! And can I just say that I'm completely in love with the concept of traditional foods right now?

Yeah, this was interesting also:

The anti-oxidant glutathione is composed of the amino acids glycine, glutamic acid, and cysteine. Foods that increase glutathione levels in the body include cruciferous vegetables (Brussels sprouts, cauliflower, broccoli, cabbage, kale, bok choy, cress, mustard, horseradish, turnips, rutabagas, kohlrabi), avocados, ripe seeds of green beans, red beets, the herb rosemary, grape seed extract, bilberry extract, curcumin found in turmeric, whey protein powder, and Pycnogenol from pine bark. A food that is particularly high in glutathione precursers is whey made from milk.
http://www.alkalizeforhealth.net/longevity.htm

Vitamin C elevates red blood cell glutathione in healthy adults. Fresh fruits and vegetables provide excellent levels of glutathione. Per serving, asparagus, avocados, asparagus, squash, okra, cauliflower, broccoli, potatoes, spinach, walnuts, garlic, and raw tomatoes have the highest glutathione content compared to other vegetables and are particularly rich dietary sources of glutathione.

The authors of this study concluded "it is not feasible to increase circulating glutathione to a clinically beneficial extent by the oral administrating of a single dose of 3 g of glutathione."
http://www.selfgrowth.com/articles/D...utathione.html

I am even MORE excited about my Green Juice!!


Pat

[WuWei]

Originally Posted by WuWei

OMG, my head hurts too. I've only read about 1/3, and am about sick with what I've learned. :::sigh:::


Pat

I'm not sure, but it looks like the best sources of 5-methyl folate is Folapro. I can't yet find a food source, as it seems that we cannot efficiently convert dietary folic acid into its 5-methyl folate form, if we have MTHFR gene defects and elevated homocysteine.

Pat

[Theloose]

Originally Posted by WuWei

I'm not sure, but it looks like the best sources of 5-methyl folate is Folapro. I can't yet find a food source, as it seems that we cannot efficiently convert dietary folic acid into its 5-methyl folate form, if we have MTHFR gene defects and elevated homocysteine.

Pat

Woah. I've been reading the opposite - that folic acid is an issue, but is really only found in supplements. 5-methyl folate *is* the form found in food, plus 5,10-methyl folate (folinic acid) - which also needed with a mutation in SHMT. We should double check our sources.

[mtn.mama]

Still trying to, uh, digest all of this... but I think we have problems with at least sulfoxidation which requires molybdenum- which, get this, is found in red clover blossoms... the largest component of my nutrient tea! Yes!

[Theloose]

Originally Posted by mtn.mama

Still trying to, uh, digest all of this... but I think we have problems with at least sulfoxidation which requires molybdenum- which, get this, is found in red clover blossoms... the largest component of my nutrient tea! Yes!

http://heal-thyself.ning.com/forum/t...uox-molybdenum

You might have an upregulation of CBS - that generates lots of sulfites for you to process and can overload. Lower meat intake might help.

eta: do you by chance have problems with depression and/or concentration but not mood swings?

[mtn.mama]

Hmmm. Jury is out on your ETA query. I have changed ALOT since I got pg Oct 06. I'm still not sure who I am now. My husband definitely follows that generalization however.

VERY interesting about XO. Its become quite clear that we can do raw cow milk products but not pasteurized or homogenized. Perhaps this is WHY.

Thanks for bringing all this information to the forefront. Food for thought is good...

[mtn.mama]

Originally Posted by whoMe

Woah. I've been reading the opposite - that folic acid is an issue, but is really only found in supplements. 5-methyl folate *is* the form found in food, plus 5,10-methyl folate (folinic acid) - which also needed with a mutation in SHMT. We should double check our sources.

I know this is a little thin, but here is a link about folic acid complex and metabolism: http://www.nutritionalconcepts.com/s...actifolate.htm

Actually, this advertising pdf is more informative... http://www.bravacorp.com/metagenicsactifolate.pdf

[JaneS]

I need to be on this thread...

[JaneS]

Are there tests for salicylate or other food chemical sensitivity? DH won't believe anything unless there is a test. And then again won't believe "alternative" tests either but that's another story entirely.

[WuWei]

Jane, I've been missing you! :


Pat

[Theloose]

There are tests of the various detox pathways.
You can test urine for sulfite/sulfate ratios with dipsticks (I need to find me some of those!).

You can test acetylation, but I can't find my link for how. I think it had to do with either a challenge substance, then checking urine, or else checking for acetylketones, or something like that.

There is a urine test for balance between phase I and phase II detoxification, which will probably tell you something about glutathione.

You can test blood homocysteine levels which will sort of tell you about how fast the methyl cycle is going relative to transsulfuration.

Vitamin D tests will tell you about the vitamin D receptor and give you a clue about dopamine.

You can test blood ammonia, which will tell you about how fast your transsulfuration process is going relative to BH4 production.

http://tuberose.com/Liver_Detoxification.html
http://heartfixer.com/AMRI-Nutrigenomics.htm
http://www.gastromd.com/lft.html

I guess these aren't really direct tests of salicylate and other food chemical sensitivity, but they are important things to have working right. If they're not, they're probably the CAUSE of the food chemical sensitivity, so you can fix it even without really 'proving' they're there.

[ellasmama2007]

ok, i just read through this thread and can i sayto whome and wu wei and everyone contributing. this is some really interesting!
when my friend lost her baby at 38 weeks this past oct (), i had never heard of the mthfr mutation. but then she told me that this was the only abnormal finding in her and the baby's exam. im trying to find out all i can learn for her because she is taking the baby aspirin every day and told to have lovenox injections if she gets pg again and neither one of us are too confident in those treatments.

[Theloose]

Originally Posted by ellasmama2007

ok, i just read through this thread and can i sayto whome and wu wei and everyone contributing. this is some really interesting!
when my friend lost her baby at 38 weeks this past oct (), i had never heard of the mthfr mutation. but then she told me that this was the only abnormal finding in her and the baby's exam. im trying to find out all i can learn for her because she is taking the baby aspirin every day and told to have lovenox injections if she gets pg again and neither one of us are too confident in those treatments.

I don't know what lovenox is, but the purpose of the baby aspirin (salicylate) is to slow down the methyl cycle. That will lower the production of homocysteine, and so reduce the chance of neural tube/midline defects/clots/ect, but at the cost of methyl groups. Which we all now know (or is it still just me?) are one of the 6 detox pathways.

Alternatively, you can find more ways to use up the homocysteine. Those include increasing folate and avoid folic acid, and/or increasing betaine (TMG) and phosphytidylserine and phosphatidylcholine, and/or getting plenty of magnesium and B6 to maximize transsulfuration.

[ellasmama2007]

well thats the thing.. like you, she has normal homocysteine levels. she has had 2 miscarriages, 1 still birth, breast ca, family hx of strokes, and i believe she has a neural tube defect.
the lovenox is an anti-clotting drug which can cause bleeding if not prescribed perfectly. she already had spontaneously bleeding during her pg with her angel baby.