MTHFR, salicylates and adrenals - Page 4

[Theloose]

Originally Posted by ellasmama2007

well thats the thing.. like you, she has normal homocysteine levels. she has had 2 miscarriages, 1 still birth, breast ca, family hx of strokes, and i believe she has a neural tube defect.
the lovenox is an anti-clotting drug which can cause bleeding if not prescribed perfectly. she already had spontaneously bleeding during her pg with her angel baby.

s:
Which MTHFR mutations was it? Cause homozygous for 1298 wouldn't affect folate/homocysteine.

CBS can be upregulated, meaning it drains homocysteine really fast. If that's the case, then the worry would be high ammonia, and sulfites and low/normal methyl groups. The way to address that would be low animal protein to restrict methionine and more betaine/phospha* and folate/B12 to pull homocysteine in the opposite direction.

If you can follow it, this page would probably help: http://heartfixer.com/AMRI-Nutrigenomics.htm

[ellasmama2007]

i need to ask her which mutation if she knows and i am going to *try* to relay to her everything im learning from you. that link makes my head spin but im going to really really try to understand it tomorrow

[Theloose]

Cliff's notes version:
http://heal-thyself.ning.com/forum/c...istForCategory

[waluso]

So I think someone else asked this but I am still confused. How do you know which detox pathways may be blocked? Is there is list of symptoms somewhere? Or is it trial and error with supplements/foods? I apologize if this was already answered - I'm a bit behind on my reading!

[Theloose]

You can start with that cliff's notes version, but I'm working on a better explanation. So if it's too overwhelming, just give me time

[perstephone]

I have another question!
So far we're doing really well with the Failsafe elimination. Amines are ok, and we started the glutamate trial last night. So far, so good. Dairy is in, eggs are too.
I made some bone broth and we're using it in everything (where I would normally use water or stock). Today I'm going to start the saurkraut, because we got a head of cabbage from our CSA pickup this weekend.
I'm not interested in trialing wheat or sals until much later, but where we are at the moment seems ok. We've expanded the list of foods that are acceptable to the point that it doesn't feel like it's very restricted anymore.

Here's the question- we have a great pedi (he's a DAN doc), and I'd bounce some ideas off of him, but his wife just had a baby last week. They're, uh, busy. Our annual visit is coming up with him, though, and I'm positive that he'd be open to doing some labs if I asked. My son has to have thyroid labs done annually, so he's already getting stuck.
What would be the best way to go here? I looked at the Yasko site, but if we can get the testing covered by our insurance because it's ordered by the pedi...

Anyway. What would I be asking for?

[lil_miss_understood]

Bumping this back up...
So, from what it looks like, using betaine to recycle homocysteine bypasses the MTHFR gene's requirement for B vitamins- am I correct in that?
Betaine can be produced from choline (grouped with the B vitamins)... It's also a by-product of (take note changing seasons!) beet sugar production.

[Theloose]

Originally Posted by JacquelineR

Bumping this back up...
So, from what it looks like, using betaine to recycle homocysteine bypasses the MTHFR gene's requirement for B vitamins- am I correct in that?

Yeah. And this pathway is stimulated by phosphatidylserine and phosphatidylcholine.

But be careful - I forget where, but one link was saying that using the betaine pathway stimulates norepinephrine conversion from dopamine. Norepinephrine is the 'fight or flight' stress response, so if stress is an issue, this might make things a little worse. The recommendation I've seen is to use betaine to get things rolling again (stress is better than toxins), then push back to the folate cycle for long term.

[lil_miss_understood]

Originally Posted by whoMe

Yeah. And this pathway is stimulated by phosphatidylserine and phosphatidylcholine.

But be careful - I forget where, but one link was saying that using the betaine pathway stimulates norepinephrine conversion from dopamine. Norepinephrine is the 'fight or flight' stress response, so if stress is an issue, this might make things a little worse. The recommendation I've seen is to use betaine to get things rolling again (stress is better than toxins), then push back to the folate cycle for long term.

I believe norepinephrine is produced by the adrenals, so yes that would certainly make things worse... Makes me wonder if that's not how some of us ended up with adrenal fatigue- not enough folate for us to use in recycling methionine, so our bodies used betaine.

[Theloose]

Originally Posted by JacquelineR

I believe norepinephrine is produced by the adrenals, so yes that would certainly make things worse... Makes me wonder if that's not how some of us ended up with adrenal fatigue- not enough folate for us to use in recycling methionine, so our bodies used betaine.

Yeah. and there's an enzyme, ACE, which converts angiotensin I to angiotensin II. Angiotensin II stimulates the adrenals to make aldosterone. This enzyme can be upregulated, so it stimulates extra. (salt tasted gross gross GROSS when I was little)

AND there's another link at the bottom of the transsulfuration sequence that I haven't looked at closely. Somehow, one of the processes there stimulates the adrenals as well.

No WONDER I have adrenal fatigue!

[lil_miss_understood]

Yeah, you want to leave the Angiotensins alone in someone with adrenal fatigue though since it increases blood pressure. If it got any lower in someone with AF, there'd be some serious problems, I think. It does explain exercise and stress induced asthma though, since ACE is in the lungs...

[WuWei]

Originally Posted by whoMe

Yeah. and there's an enzyme, ACE, which converts angiotensin I to angiotensin II. Angiotensin II stimulates the adrenals to make aldosterone.

I hated this stuff in school.


Pat

[WuWei]

Interestingly, I happened upon this, "elimination of specific foods: cabbage, peaches, radishes, soy, peanuts, spinach and rutabagas which can interfere with thyroid hormone production." And I wonder about the connection between those (which are beneficial for opening Phase I and Phase II detox pathways) and adrenals are related.

And I'm still lost about (well, a lot of stuff) how salicylates fits in with the adrenal stuff.


Pat

[lil_miss_understood]

whoMe, I'm surprised your head doesn't spin right off. I'm not sure where to ask you stuff... so many threads with so many links!!
I started reading through the heartfixer link you posted somewhere... I'm about halfway through and I have to ask- why not just supp with the hydroxy-B12 and, if that doesn't seem to help, assume that you need the methyl-B12? Will the hydroxy form do very bad things if you need the methyl form? I suppose it would take methyl groups, right? And then you'd feel worse... but then you'd know you actually need the methyl form, right?

[Theloose]

Originally Posted by JacquelineR

whoMe, I'm surprised your head doesn't spin right off. I'm not sure where to ask you stuff... so many threads with so many links!!
I started reading through the heartfixer link you posted somewhere... I'm about halfway through and I have to ask- why not just supp with the hydroxy-B12 and, if that doesn't seem to help, assume that you need the methyl-B12? Will the hydroxy form do very bad things if you need the methyl form? I suppose it would take methyl groups, right? And then you'd feel worse... but then you'd know you actually need the methyl form, right?

I haven't come across anything that says it would be bad to just guess and check on the form of B12...

And me trying to memorize the parts of the inner ear and how we tell static vs dynamic equilibrium... I'm definitely losing screws. The food sensitivity stuff? I've been frantically searching for these answers for the past year and a half+. I'm a sponge! Yeah, this experience is completely selling me on radical unschooling... If only dh could experience the inside of my head for a day...

[lil_miss_understood]

Sorry, I should let you study.
I'm just not used to actually being able to think lucidly yet again (thank you, PB, for pointing me to homeopathy!!) and I'm so excited to finally have someone to talk to about this stuff, yk?

[Theloose]

Originally Posted by JacquelineR

Sorry, I should let you study.
I'm just not used to actually being able to think lucidly yet again (thank you, PB, for pointing me to homeopathy!!) and I'm so excited to finally have someone to talk to about this stuff, yk?

I've always hated studying, and I'm horribly no good at it. Luckily, I have some sort of magic genie that gives me good grades on tests so it doesn't matter too much

I'm so excited that you guys are catching up! I have questions too!

[WuWei]

Originally Posted by JacquelineR

And then you'd feel worse... but then you'd know you actually need the methyl form, right?

Now that is a plan.


ETA: do not try this at home without a medical professional advising you.


Pat

[WuWei]

Originally Posted by whoMe

The food sensitivity stuff? I've been frantically searching for these answers for the past year and a half+. I'm a sponge! Yeah, this experience is completely selling me on radical unschooling...

:






Pat

[lil_miss_understood]

Originally Posted by WuWei

Now that is a plan.


ETA: do not try this at home without a medical professional advising you.


Pat

I was just thinking "outloud" more than anything.
It seems the only "safe" way to find out what form you need is to get the actual testing for the MTHFR genes done, along with the CBS and possibly the COMT and VDR genes, assuming they're all identified variables.