Let's Talk About "Discreet" and Lactivism - Page 3

[annettemarie]

Originally Posted by PJJ

Well said mama!

I find it a shame that it is EVEN a thread here. It is just about controlling a woman, which men love to do and other women seem to enjoy doing it to other women.

I don't think it's a shame at all. Part of the purpose of this forum is to look critically at the issues surrounding breastfeeding lactivism. If we can't roll up our sleeves and get down and dirty and wrestle with these ideas here, where can we?

Just take those pants off ladies, cause you know you should not dress like me now...

What does this mean?

[BarnMomma]

I'm a very private nurser. Mainly because I need to be relaxed and comfy to nurse well. I can't relax in public. I'm just aware of everything. I've always just gone to my car and snuggled up Ds and we take our time. There are the occasional places where I'm able to relax in public...like at our local farm organization where it's outdoors and peaceful or maybe a park in a nice quiet section. But my letdown has always been super sensitive so if I'm not relaxed, DS doesn't relax, and we don't accomplish anything. Even in a person's home, if there are people talking around us we need to go elsewhere so we can both relax and focus on nursing.

Also, DS has to stop and examine where his meal is coming from so he was never a "discreet" nurser. There's always that minute or two where he's studying the boob deciding if it's up to the task or something. And he hates to have anything in his way so I have to be pretty nude up top for him to settle in.

But that's just us. I see no problem with any woman NIP. But at the same time I don't feel like I'm doing a disservice to BFing by being private about it.

Nuring still at 19 months and going strong!

[Bluegoat]

I think that NIP is related with the issue of modestly. What does it mean to be modest? I think that at it's heart, it is about not purposefully trying to sexually titillate people. And in different places and cultures, different parts of the body are considered erotic; hair, ankles, breasts, etc.

To some degree I think the differences are really random, and we have to recognize that. If I go around wearing something inappropriate to arouse the public at large, it's immodest. If I do it to anger them, it's probably unkind. If I don't realize I shouldn't, then at worst, I am being rude by not paying attention. Every culture, even those that wear almost nothing, has behaviors that are not acceptable. There is always behavior that is going to offend people. And a person can be immodest even when fully dressed.

NIP is difficult in NA, I think, partly because we are in a place where practices and attitudes have been changing. So that there are people who have been raise/ are used to different definitions of modesty. As a society we have decided that NIP is ok and to be protected, but it will take a while for it to permeate the culture. And breasts ARE still considered a largely private part of the body here. I don't really think that that is either right or wrong, in itself.

So to my mind, as long as it is possible to NIP, I am largely willing to go along with the local culture, whether that means being discrete in so far as is practical and good for the baby or letting it all hang out. I don't think it is possible to get away from the cultural element. And perhaps we should be kind to those for whom this represents a change in thinking.

But North America is so weird, you can be practically naked to sell underwear, not to nurse your baby.:

[LavenderMae]

I think some ideas are just absurd and hurtful and I wish my fellow women and fellow breasfeeding mothers would not even acknowledge them. The whole discreet nursing crap offends me to my core. I am sick of it really and it needs to be put to rest already. Breastfeeding is not sexual. It is not my problem if someone is offended by me FEEDING my child, they need to deal with their hang ups. And no I do NOT need to consider their comfort it's not about them.

[kalisis]

Here's what I think about the discreet argument - it's a way to take the focus off of what is really at the central core of this issue, which is a baby's right to eat.

It's just smoke and mirrors and puts us on the defensive when we have no need to be.

There is not a single rational human on this planet who would deny a baby food. They just wouldn't. So, regardless of how that baby eats, it's about the BABY - not about us as women or mothers who are feeding that baby.

Unfortunately, b/c of the mechanics of breastfeeding and the fact that ONLY the mother can nurse, the spotlight is thrust upon us and we are told we have to be discreet and not offend anyone.

Except, babies eating is not offensive.

Honestly, I've done so many interviews where they ask this question and if you turn it right back around on them and re-focus the question to what it's really about, which is the baby, it makes them speechless.

I am really glad there's a place to have this conversation from an activist, intellectual point of view. I do not think it is inappropriate - this comes up ALL the time (even brought up by members of our own community).

[annettemarie]

My biggest problem with the discretion and modesty argument is that is takes focus off the main issue, which is giving a baby the absolute best nutrition and absolute best start in life. I don't nurse to make a point to either "side"--I have nothing to prove by nursing discreetly, I have nothing to prove by going out of my way to nurse indiscreetly. I just nurse. If I had a baby who for some reason needed me to nurse with all hanging out, I'd learn to move past my own discomfort and do it, because it would be about doing what I had to do to nurse the baby. Other people's comfort wouldn't even be a consideration.

And with my mod hat on regardless of what you think of this conversation, it's happening here. There's no rule against discussing this; in fact, it fits in nicely with one of the points of the Lactivism forum--thinking critically about breastfeeding issues. You can participate or not participate, but please remember the User Agreement in your posts:

MDC serves an online community of parents, families, and parent, child and family advocates considering, learning, practicing, and advocating attachment parenting and natural family living. Our discussions concern the real world of mothering and are first and foremost, for support, information, and community. Mothering invites you to read and participate in the discussions. In doing so we ask that you agree to respect and uphold the integrity of this community. Through your direct or indirect participation here you agree to make a personal effort to maintain a comfortable and respectful atmosphere for our guests and members.

If you have any questions about this thread, MDC policy, or anything else, please feel free to PM me. Thanks!

ETA
I thought of one last thing while I was at the library--and this is with my mod hat on again--the one thing we would NOT host is anyone making a blanket statement that everyone had to cover up

[spughy]

I don't think that the objections to NIP are actually a modesty issue - as a PP pointed out, women regularly wear clothes that are more revealing expressly FOR the purpose of sexual titillation, and that gets very little comment.

I think what makes people uncomfortable is precisely the unsexual nature of breastfeeding - the same way that people get uncomfortable if they see a little boy with his hands down his pants in public. I think it's a sign of the lack of imagination and sophistication in the NA culture that it's impossible for there to be a legitimate duality associated with breasts, and I think that DOES need to change and the only way it's going to happen is by more dialogue around the topic AND by women regularly and perhaps not screamingly discreetly breastfeeding in public.

[RiverMamma]

Originally Posted by annettemarie

I don't nurse to make a point to either "side"--I have nothing to prove by nursing discreetly, I have nothing to prove by going out of my way to nurse indiscreetly. I just nurse.

Yeah that!
I actually live in a small community where BF is normal & you see moms nursing everywhere you go, so when I'm in the outside world, I sometimes forget that it's not so normal everywhere. I don't even think about poping out my boob in the grocery line when she's fussy, it's just auto pilot.
Kindof interesting, reciently I was at a function where there was a room of moms & babys, all of whome were nursing. I was suprised to see that I was the only mom there who wasn't covering up to nurse! & there were only nursing moms & babies in the room! It made me think that the cultural engrainment in deep in most women.
I agree with a pp who was saying that it's the gawkers who are the problem, not the nursing moms.
I found it funny that all of the moms in this room had a "boob tent" of some sort. I remember trying once to keep a blanket over DD while we were nursing in a court room (she was pretty little then too,) & she threw the biggest fit! She would not have anything over her head! We would have been better off to just bare some skin & not create a sceen of crying...
I hope that someday our culture can get over it's fear of the breast as a food source & normalize BF. (notice, that boobs hanging out in a sexual manner are culturaly acceptable, but atatch a baby & it's obcene????)

[SpiderMum]

The discretion thing is frustrating to me because it's all a matter of opinion. I think I'm pretty discreet when I nurse. I wear nursing tanks under another top. Very little of my boob shows. My main concern is that my stomach doesn't hang out....which is practical because I dislike being cold!

I think another problem is that people act like nursing in public is some sort of optional thing. It's not optional for me. My DD will NOT take a bottle. Period. We've tried and it is NOT happening! So what am I to do? Let my child starve when we're out....or never leave my house? I can't be a hermit till my daughter weans!

And honestly, I think it's good that I have to NIP. People need to see it, discreet or not. I found out last week that my aunt thought breastfeeding was gross and unnatural. Well...I've been openly nursing around her for months and I think she's gotten over it. My father was also weird about nursing and would run whenever I needed to feed the baby....well he's gotten over it too.

[KBecks]

I happily NIP last weekend at Mass and at the children's museum. One nice mom came to give me approval because she believes in NIP. It was pretty cool, I am comfortable NIP to begin with.

I prefer to have my tummy covered w/a tank, but do not use a blanket/cover. No one has said bad things except FIL once a couple years ago, but I still nurse around him and he has gotten used to it. I am pretty well covered and plan to wear something modest so I have the coverage I want.

I don't like flashing style nursing, I would not like seeing someone expose tons of skin (nursing or not). I do not see that happen though and I do not think it is a big problem.

[prothyraia]

This is the thing that always gets me about nursing "discreetly".

If we as a culture say that seeing a nipple is somehow sexual, and breastfeeding mothers should make sure that their nipples aren't visible when they're feeding their children.... why on earth is it okay to set a giant plastic nipple right on the table in plain view? Giant plastic version of other sexual body parts aren't generally acceptable in public.

I want consistency. If I have to be paranoid about hiding my nipples, those bottle nipples better be invisible too!

[bmcneal]

Originally Posted by annettemarie

What does this mean?

Maybe she meant "men"?

[ameliabedelia]

This is an issue where I have recently changed my thoughts on. I have always been in favor of moms breastfeeding in public anywhere and everywhere, but thought they should take some minor steps to be "discreet" Not going so as to say they should use a blanket/cape (and never using that myself) however I did use to feel that taking care to hold the top of one's shirt down over the breast and watching the types of clothes one wore were important.

However, I now feel a bit differently. After talking to many moms about this, I have come to discover that MANY moms WEAN over anxiety about NIP and the "pressure" to be discreet. They WEAN over this!! I hear people say things like "I hated always having to go to the car" or "It was just so difficult when we were out and about, trying to find a place to nurse" or "I don't take the baby out much, but if we have to go somewhere like to the pediatricians office I pump and give a bottle" Babies are not being breastfed due to this very issue.

Breastfeeding in public is hard, it is difficult to latch a baby on when one is worried about exposing the breast, it is difficult to continue through the distractible, popping-off constantly stage if one is worried about a nipple being briefly exposed. Some babies are easier to NIP than others. My 1st was dream. My 2nd and 3rd were/are difficult...very distractible, etc.

Breastfeeding initiation rates are high. Breastfeeding duration rates are low. While some of that is due to issues with work and pumping and the dismally short maternity leave most women get, I believe low duration rates are also due to the fact that mothers just don't feel comfortable NIP. And, no one wants to stay home all the time, or to be constantly banished to another room. In order for breastfeeding duration to increase, mothers NEED to feel comfortable taking part in regular social life and feeding their babies while doing so. In order for mothers to feel comfortable feeding their babies in public, they need to not be worried about "discretion".

Furthermore, breastfeeding is learned from watching other mothers breastfeed. Many moms are very surprised to learn that babies cluster feed and can nurse VERY frequently and that not every baby nurses on a 2-3 hour schedule. I believe that many breastfeeding issues new moms have would be avoided if they were more familiar with biologically normal feeding patterns, and the way moms become familiar with that is by watching other mothers breastfeed.

I was 7 years old when my little brother was born. My mom was a LLL member, and breastfed all her children until age 2.5-3.5 or so and in an "ecological manner" (her cycles never returned until well past a year, no bottles or pacifiers, etc.). While I don't have vivid memories of my little brother breastfeeding....I believe that witnessing it made a HUGE impression on me. I really believe the fact that I saw my mother (and my aunt) breastfeed influenced me greatly so that when my own daughter was born, I naturally started feeding in that same manner and never worried about schedules and EXPECTED my baby to want to nurse frequently and for comfort. Furthermore, NIP was also "normal" to me since I saw my mother do it. I attribute much of my "breastfeeding success" to the fact that I was fortunate enough to grow up in an enviroment were breastfeeding was normal and I DID witness my mother doing it. For mothers who don't have that, witnessing OTHER mothers breastfeeding would be just as beneficial.

[AllyRae]

Originally Posted by elanorh

I keep thinking about this and I think if I am really honest, I must admit that one of the reasons that I tend towards being what some might consider a more 'discreet' nurser, is that I really just don't want to get into a hostile discussion/fight.

This is me, exactly. I *hate* when people make angry/hateful/mean/criticizing comments about me. I hate it so much that when some lady (who clearly had a mental illness) screamed that I didn't deserve my baby because I didn't put a blanket directly over her face to "prevent colic by blocking out the breeze" a couple weeks ago, I burst out into tears and cried for hours. Of course, I was also 2 weeks postpartum. I can not tolerate confrontation and people yelling at me. The last thing I need is for people to make comments to me about how nursing is disgusting, I should keep it at home, or some other horrible thing. For me, I take these things too personally and they distress me and cause anxiety. And it's that anxiety that causes me to be as discreet as possible. I know eventually my nursing in public will offend someone, even if I cover up, but I try to avoid it if at all possible because I don't want to be on the receiving end of someone's nastiness.

Yeah, it sucks, really. I don't like having to find a secluded corner or putting a blanket or cover over me, but it's easier than risking nasty comments towards me--especially if I'm with my other two little ones. It really sucks that some people feel they have the right to make nursing mothers feel disgusting, inferior, bad, or self-conscious (especially since I live in an area where legally, women can go topless. Yet if they NIP, they get nasty remarks...)

[One_Girl]

I think that it is good to be somewhat discreet about nursing, not that people should be wearing blankets and feeling ashamed if a little nipple shows right before latch on, but I do think that if we want to have people respect the right to breastfeed in public we need to go to make some effort to not turn it into something that teenage boys will find erotic. There are many ways to latch a baby on without showing off a lot of yourself. I really don't understand why magazines promoting breastfeeding and trying to get respect for breastfeeding in public do so by showing the picture of the mother who breastfeeds with her shirt unbuttoned and her chest and entire breast hanging out and I feel like that the people who go to this extreme are hurting the image of breastfeeding and making it less likely that state's will get on board with protecting the right of women to breastfeed in public. When people see that type of thing they tell everyone they know about it and talk about how bad it is and how it should be outlawed and that hurts the cause.

[ameliabedelia]

by showing the picture of the mother who breastfeeds with her shirt unbuttoned and her chest and entire breast hanging out and I feel like that the people who go to this extreme are hurting the image of breastfeeding and making it less likely that

Just to clarify..I believe in sensible breastfeeding...generally there is no real reason to have the entire breast hang out. I don't even do that at home. I would just like a lot of the anxiety and worry over NIP taken away and for society to be accepting enough that mothers won't worry if the baby pulls the top of their shirt up a little or pops off to look around or if it takes a little bit longer to get the baby latched on correctly, yk.

When a mother is made to feel that she needs to hide or be worried about showing a little bit of breast....well people wean over that

[kalisis]

The problem with all of this is that it's singling out a specific group and imposing YOUR morals and values on them.

So what if my entire breast hangs out? It's my business - I'm feeding my baby and *I* get to choose how that happens, not you (the general you, not anyone one specific poster).

Because in essence what is being said when you say there is no real reason to have the whole breast hanging out is that you're only going to support *some* women NIP and not others. Either we support ALL women NIP and the myriad ways that that can happen or we support NO women NIP. This picking and choosing which women we're going to support is counter productive and really, truly hurts our cause.

How about this - well, we can support MLK and his speeches, b/c he's not breaking any laws, but lord, that Rosa Parks, who does she think she is? She's just not asserting her rights in the *proper* way so we can't get behind her.

It's silly - either we're for NIP or we're not.

[LavenderMae]

Originally Posted by kalisis

The problem with all of this is that it's singling out a specific group and imposing YOUR morals and values on them.

So what if my entire breast hangs out? It's my business - I'm feeding my baby and *I* get to choose how that happens, not you (the general you, not anyone one specific poster).

Because in essence what is being said when you say there is no real reason to have the whole breast hanging out is that you're only going to support *some* women NIP and not others. Either we support ALL women NIP and the myriad ways that that can happen or we support NO women NIP. This picking and choosing which women we're going to support is counter productive and really, truly hurts our cause.

How about this - well, we can support MLK and his speeches, b/c he's not breaking any laws, but lord, that Rosa Parks, who does she think she is? She's just not asserting her rights in the *proper* way so we can't get behind her.

It's silly - either we're for NIP or we're not.

bolding mine

I agree with everything you've written. I am so offended that anyone thinks we need to breastfeed just right to be allowed to breasfeed in public, um really. I am sad to know other women feel this way (even breastfeeding mothers) and I am just so pissed that thsi is even up for discussion. It's not breastfeeding mothers' problem or concern if others are aroused by us FEEDING our children. Why in the world would anyone try to burden us with something so absurd. I really think anyone who has a set criteria for what breasfeeding mothers should or shouldn't do in public should try to figure out why they have said hang ups and please stop pushing them onto the rest of us!

[the_lissa]

Originally Posted by LavenderMae

bolding mine

I agree with everything you've written. I am so offended that anyone thinks we need to breastfeed just right to be allowed to breasfeed in public, um really. I am sad to know other women feel this way (even breastfeeding mothers) and I am just so pissed that thsi is even up for discussion. It's not breastfeeding mothers' problem or concern if others are aroused by us FEEDING our children. Why in the world would anyone try to burden us with something so absurd. I really think anyone who has a set criteria for what breasfeeding mothers should or shouldn't do in public should try to figure out why they have said hang ups and please stop pushing them onto the rest of us!

[pumpkinhead]

Originally Posted by cjuniverse

In my opinion, you either think breastfeeding is normal and natural, or you don't. There's no 'middle ground' and there's no 'compromise'.

If you think nursing women should have to do anything to hide what they are doing, then you don't think think it's normal or natural, and you do not support nursing mothers, or their babies. Period. If it's normal and good and right, there is no need for discretion or hiding.

Only when we think something is unnatural, unsavory or wrong do we feel the need to hide it.

I respectfully disagree. There is always a middle ground. There are plenty of things that are normal and natural that I'd prefer not to view personally. Breastfeeding is emphatically NOT one of them, but what I am saying is that it is perfectly logical for someone to feel that something is normal and natural but to be uncomfortable viewing it.

That isn't a nursing mother's issue though. I perferred to nurse as discreetly as I could. This doesn't mean I used a blanket or a nursing cover, but I exposed only as much breast as my babies needed to latch on, kept the top covered and covered up for burping etc. I don't feel that it is unsavoury or wrong.

This does not mean that I feel everyone should share my personal method of nursing.

When my first was born, if someone had said this to me

Only when we think something is unnatural, unsavory or wrong do we feel the need to hide it

I would have felt defeated, embarrassed and even more self consious.