Difference of opinion

[becominkindacruncy]

I watched the graphic video below. I used to want to circ my son because thats what my parents did, thats what my fiance is and its the thing to do. I have since decided that I want to leave my future son/sons intact. My FI is disagreeing with me. He wants to have it done. I just watched the video and it made me sick. I am going to have him watch it and maybe he will change his mind.

We had a conversation the other night about it and he got really angry. He feels like I don't respect what he wants and that I only care about how I feel. He wants it done because he is, our son will get made fun of, its not clean, it doesn't hurt them that bad, ect. He mom says the same thing. I am at a loss. I really love him and up until now everything about marrying him was perfect. I have decided I don't want to circ but he does. It is really making it hard time. He feels that I read things online and that is how I form my opinion. I make my opinion based on other peoples opinions. I told him no, I look for the facts and that is what I base my opinion on. His response was "well that is just someones opinion, its not facts."

I am so confused as to what to do. We are getting married in July and part of me doesn't want to anymore. The other part of me just wants to give up so we won't have fights and arguements. I am going to make him watch the video and see if he really wants that done to his son.

I am confused and hoping that I can make him change his mind. If you have any articles or info that would be helpful I would greatly appreciate it. Thank you very much and sorry for rambling!

[Ophelia]

This is SUCH a common reaction from men, 'it's cleaner, he'll be made fun of', etc. Mine did the same thing.
You could approach this a couple different ways:

1. Put the onus on HIM. HE needs to prove to you that routine infant circ is better for the baby (he won't be able to do this).
2. When you have discussions about circ, focus on functions of the foreskin. Most people just don't know the functions of it, therefore it's something for them to fear.

Long after DS was born, I showed DH this article and he finally 'got it':

http://mothering.com/articles/new_ba...cumcision.html

and don't ever feel like you have to 'give up'. Too many mamas have done that and regretted it. My advice is to talk about this and come to an agreement BEFORE getting married. DH and I didn't talk about these things before I got pg, I never even thought about them much before. It has caused a lot of stress (and 2+ years of counseling) because of health care issues we disagree on for our son.

[nettieferg]

Is the Question REALLY between a Foreskin and a FATHER??

I am a natural mama in most respects. We are a vegetarian family, I natural birthed my last baby, I 'wear' my babies, we do co-sleeping and attachment parenting, homeschooling, extended breastfeeding . . . and we delay vaccinations.

Uh-oh ----- here it comes!

We circ'd our baby boy. Would I do it again? I truly do not know. I will tell you what OUR experience was like . . .

First, we waited until he was 8 days old (Jewish tradition - also to avoid overwhelming the newborn) . . .

Second, we had the operation done by a Pediatric Urologist at the hospital -- NO, our insurance would not pay, because we refused to have the procedure done at birth -- however, it was worth the extra cost to have a specialist perform the procedure.

The procedure took about 5 minutes, and my husband was able to hold him during the procedure. Anesthesia was used at the site. My son cried for less than a minute, and showed no other outward signs of discomfort after that time. He fed fine immediately following. We had NO issues after, and my son is nearly 4 now.

I bet there are plenty of stories that were much more traumatic than mine, but -- just wanted to throw this out there. Just my experience -- I am not PRO-circ -- (how can I be with all the SCARY literature floating around???) --on the 'fence'-

My husband is also circumcised (was done so by a Hebrew Rabbi -- given only a sip of wine before the procedure) -- so, of course this influenced the decision at the time. He relates that he very much enjoys sex, and does NOT feel like he is missing out on something by not being intact -- of course, he has nothing to compare to (neither do intact males, for that matter).

If it is VERY important to keep your son intact, why don't you discuss delaying the procedure? After all, if you decide to go along with your fiance, you can get it done LATER ----- but, in getting him to agree to a delay, you may find that you can put it off INDEFINITELY!

Truly, your son would miss his father MUCH MORE than he would miss his foreskin (my hubby also grew up without one of those - he says, if he could go back to childhood and have one back, it would be to have a dad) -- please don't call off having a daddy for your son over his foreskin -- try the sneaky approach and just *delay it* . . . When he sees his son, he may be very approachable regarding going YOUR way on this!!! ;-)

Good Luck!

[CellarDoor]

Here are some things to think about:

Looking like dad: baby will not look like dad in many other ways and his penis certainly won't look like dad's at birth even if he has the surgery (uh, size? hair?) Ask a man you know (in df's presence) who did have a dad around as a kid if he knows what his father's penis looks like! Really, this argument is silly considering that if it were valid you should also get a nose job and other cosmetic surgeries for the newborn.

Cleaner: cleaning the open wound created by a cric that then gets peed and pooped on is NOT clean at all. An intact penis is absolutely clean in that the foreskin is fused to the penis (like a fingernail to your nailbed) keeping bacteria OUT. You do NOTHING to an intact penis (only the owner should ever retract it) except clean the outside like a finger. Most boys are capable of cleaning their own penis by the time the foreskin becomes retractable.

Teasing: currently only 53% of boys are circ'd in the US. Depending on where you live, the rate could be much lower. The rate continues to drop so in all likelihood your son will not be in the minority. Plus, most high-school aged boys don't spend lots of time looking at other penises! Additionally, since when should parents make important health decisions for their children based on what other people *might* say or do?

Sexual satisfaction: this is tricky because I think it gets to the heart of the issue. You not wanting to circ may feel like a comment on your df's penis and performance. I would tread lightly here (so his masculinity doesn't feel attacked), but if you think it will help, tell him about all the nerve endings that are removed during a circ and that even though sex feels great now, there's no way to know what it would feel like if the foreskin were still there. Colorblind people don't miss what they have never experienced IYKWIM.

Doesn't hurt that bad: when my dh was on the fence I told him that he had to either watch a video (or 5) or attend a live circ. I think this is only fair. Definitely put the onus on him to find RESEARCH that supports his assertion.

Watch the Penn & Teller Bullsh*t show on circ and see if it would appeal to your husband (sorry cannot find link on youtube right now...does somebody have it?) It's funny and has a lot of great interviews with doctors, etc.

Bottom line: circ is surgery that carries risk (including death) and is totally unnecessary. No medical association in the world recommends it for newborns! Your son has the right to decide what happens to HIS penis and circ can always be done later in life when he has the ability to consent to cosmetic surgery (with proper anesthetic and painkillers I might add).

Be strong and good luck!

[Fellow Traveler]

I am so sorry to hear you're going through this. Please know that there are many people here who have faced the same problems you have and worked it out. So you've come to the right place! Just stick with us and you won't cave and your husband will eventually understand.

Originally Posted by becominkindacruncy

I watched the graphic video below. I used to want to circ my son because thats what my parents did, thats what my fiance is and its the thing to do. I have since decided that I want to leave my future son/sons intact. My FI is disagreeing with me. He wants to have it done. I just watched the video and it made me sick. I am going to have him watch it and maybe he will change his mind.

That is always a good first step to opening the conversation. Though, for me, I don't always like the video because it doesn't convey the real problem. That is that circumcision is simply unethical. Even if they did it and the child isn't in distress it doesn't make it right. That is the message that people have to learn. That is the message you have to convey to your husband because you'll inevitably come across people who will say it wasn't like that or he only cried for a minute. That just isn't the point though.

Originally Posted by becominkindacruncy

I make my opinion based on other peoples opinions. I told him no, I look for the facts and that is what I base my opinion on. His response was "well that is just someones opinion, its not facts."

Conversation is the way to go. And you should start out by pointing out that he has also formed an opinion based on others opinions and not facts. Once that is out of the way, the best thing to do is to find out why it is so important to him? So he is circumcised, so what? Do you think your son will care, I can promise you he won't. There are a lot of boys being left intact today, it is very unlikely he will have any social problems because of it. You can point out that only a bit over half of boys are circumcised (though that is regionally dependent). Just remember that you have to discuss it with him in such a way as to not put him in a defensive position. It's got to be a we know better now so we do better kind of thing. It isn't an indictment on his parents or his penis.

Originally Posted by becominkindacruncy

I am so confused as to what to do. We are getting married in July and part of me doesn't want to anymore. The other part of me just wants to give up so we won't have fights and arguements. I am going to make him watch the video and see if he really wants that done to his son.

I am confused and hoping that I can make him change his mind. If you have any articles or info that would be helpful I would greatly appreciate it. Thank you very much and sorry for rambling!

Keep talking but keep listening. You're right there is no question and as long as you can have a rational conversation with him about it he will eventually see the logic in your position. I think a good start might be the Penn and Teller BS video, Season three episode 1 I think. If I find a link, I'll post it but you can also rent the dvd. Good Luck and please keep us informed. We can help you through this.

[CellarDoor]

Originally Posted by nettieferg

He relates that he very much enjoys sex, and does NOT feel like he is missing out on something by not being intact -- of course, he has nothing to compare to (neither do intact males, for that matter).

Actually, there are sexually active adult males who were intact and then were circ'd for various reasons and the reports I've read were clear: sensation was greatly reduced.

I think there's a study out there on foreskin sensitivity as well...

[nettieferg]

Originally Posted by MaClaire

Actually, there are sexually active adult males who were intact and then were circ'd for various reasons and the reports I've read were clear: sensation was greatly reduced.

I think there's a study out there on foreskin sensitivity as well...

Maybe it is different being circ'd later in life?? Obviously, all of this is personal subjectiveness -- (Just like when I say my natural childbirth was PAIN-FREE :- ) . . . but there are many who would disagree )

Either which way -- I JUST watched the circ video and felt like I would throw-up ------ I had NO idea that a circ could be so traumatic -- I wanted to jump through my screen and rescue him. Is I relayed, our circ had PROPER Anesthesia, with no crying, and daddy held (NOT saying that it was the right choice) ----- so I was obviously EXTREMELY in the dark about what *can* and apparently *does* occur.

My heart is STILL racing from that video.

[Fellow Traveler]

Originally Posted by nettieferg

Maybe it is different being circ'd later in life?? Obviously, all of this is personal subjectiveness -- (Just like when I say my natural childbirth was PAIN-FREE :- ) . . . but there are many who would disagree )

Either which way -- I JUST watched the circ video and felt like I would throw-up ------ I had NO idea that a circ could be so traumatic -- I wanted to jump through my screen and rescue him. Is I relayed, our circ had PROPER Anesthesia, with no crying, and daddy held (NOT saying that it was the right choice) ----- so I was obviously EXTREMELY in the dark about what *can* and apparently *does* occur.

My heart is STILL racing from that video.

Not to get into a fight here because I think this is something you said you did without really knowing there are two sides. In any case, there is a difference between being circumcised as an adult and as an infant. The infant won't ever know what he is missing and that is part of the problem. As an intact guy, I know what feelings and sensations are derived from that part of my anatomy and would never not want that. Now I can concede the point that different guys are going to weigh that differently and to be sure you do get some guys who get circumcised and are fine with it but it is their choice.

As to the video, as I've mentioned I don't think it should the most compelling reason but it is a good conversation starter. Even if it is not traumatic (which is how you described it) it still misses the point that it has no medical utility and therefore should by all rights be the boy's choice. The truth is that many circumcision do occur just like that video. Others might be more like the one you had. But in the end none are ethically right.

[MCatLvrMom2A&X]

OP I would seriously consider delaying your marriage until you can work this out.

And definatly dont get pg until it is settled it is much easier that way. In the end all you have to do is say no it wont happen and keep your son safe. It is preferable to have a dh/dp that agrees of course but many like myself have dh's that we couldnt convince. Dh is still not ok with ds being intact but it is a none issue now.

At any rate it is your potential ds's penis to decide what to do with not yours nor your dp.

Almost half of american boys are intact now and that number is climbing so the teasing thing is more likely to happen if he is cut than if he where intact.

Everyone both male and female deserve to have the potential for full sexual function and by circing that is taken away no matter how the circ is done something is lost. How can it not be? The equivalent of 15 inches of skin is removed with all those specialized nerves.

[LavenderMae]

First off there is NO right way to do a wrong thing. It is a violation against your son to have a healthy functioning part of HIS penis cut off period.

OP, I woud hold off on the wedding until you get this worked out and YES allowing your future son/s to keep all their body is important enough to not get married. Harming your child for marital harmony is sick imo.I hope your FI comes around.

[Yulia_R]

The three links I would absolutely recommend are:

1. Circumcision started in North America in the Puritan 1870s as a cure for masturbation. Masturbation was considered to be evil and sinful and was blamed for all sort of illnesses including blindness, paralysis and mental retardation) http://www.noharmm.org/docswords.htm .

As late as the 1970's medical books were claiming that desensitizing the boy was good medicine as well as good morality. The idea of that, touted openly by medical scholarship with notable pride, was carefully tucked away when the sexual revolution permitted sexual pleasure.

2. Circumcision decision: a new very well done video where doctors voice their opinion about the issue as well as a victim of female genital mutilation compares the two http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...30319025&hl=en

3. Penn & Teller video "Circumcision Bullshit" (a funny video; a lot of bad words though)
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...91532653693892

[kiara7]

Are you pregnant? If not, I would definetely NOT get pregnant without working this out. And I would be seriously thinking about the marriage thing too. Tell him to bring you valid medical society information about why circ should be done. He won't find any. Hopefully you can show him that there is NO reason to do that.

Circ is a violation of children's right and definetely not a quick snip.

[nettieferg]

Thanks!

Originally Posted by jwhispers

Not to get into a fight here because I think this is something you said you did without really knowing there are two sides. In any case, there is a difference between being circumcised as an adult and as an infant. The infant won't ever know what he is missing and that is part of the problem. As an intact guy, I know what feelings and sensations are derived from that part of my anatomy and would never not want that. Now I can concede the point that different guys are going to weigh that differently and to be sure you do get some guys who get circumcised and are fine with it but it is their choice.

As to the video, as I've mentioned I don't think it should the most compelling reason but it is a good conversation starter. Even if it is not traumatic (which is how you described it) it still misses the point that it has no medical utility and therefore should by all rights be the boy's choice. The truth is that many circumcision do occur just like that video. Others might be more like the one you had. But in the end none are ethically right.

Thank you for your well-reasoned post. Unfortunately, the only intact guy I knew personally (at least, who talked about it --- I am sure many other guys are, simply -- not like it usually comes up in conversation! ) -- He was a friend from college and said he HATED being intact. But, perhaps his reasons for the distaste could have been remedied -- He was taking multiple showers each day because of the 'odor' he would get . . . He *said* he wished his parents had done it ---- but, clearly, there are other guys who feel the opposite way! (Plus, being a guy in college ---- well, he had kinda particular reason for wanting to make sure he had no odor 'down there' )

[kiara7]

Originally Posted by nettieferg

Truly, your son would miss his father MUCH MORE than he would miss his foreskin

You never know. Many boys have given up more than just foreskin. Many have disfiguring injuries, lost body parts and many have DIED during these procedures.

[MCatLvrMom2A&X]

It is possible that he had a yeast infection or something similar that could have been easily fixed if he had a dr or saw a dr who knew what it was.

If he was so dissatisfied he should have went in for a circ but he obviously knew he would be missing something should he do that.

He might also have had a sexual encounter with a person who was ignorent of the intact penis and they popped off about it and he took it to heart.

[nettieferg]

To Clarify . . .

Oops - obviously mis-read -- I *thought* OP was pregnant currently w/a boy --

I DEFINITELY would wait on marriage (and sex, for that matter, due to the potential for pregnancy no matter the BC) --- until you are on the 'same page' -- and make sure his change is sincere, NOT just because . . . well, you know . . .

Also, to clarify -- since I thought we were talking having a FATHER vs. a foreskin -- I meant that the boy would be MORE scarred to miss out on having a dad, than he would be to miss out on a foreskin . . . call it the lesser of two evils.

Also, also -- I mentioned being *sneaky* and just getting FI to agree to a DELAY, and then another delay, etc. ---- Again, that was assuming that OP was ALREADY pregnant, and the decision of having a dad or not was weighing in the balance. Taking that HUGE issue from the balance, I AGREE -- no marriage until you are united (and that goes for ALL huge moral/ethical issues). Sometimes things are just TOO important/sensitive to 'agree to disagree'.

Best of Wishes --

[Fellow Traveler]

Originally Posted by nettieferg

Thank you for your well-reasoned post. Unfortunately, the only intact guy I knew personally (at least, who talked about it --- I am sure many other guys are, simply -- not like it usually comes up in conversation! ) -- He was a friend from college and said he HATED being intact. But, perhaps his reasons for the distaste could have been remedied -- He was taking multiple showers each day because of the 'odor' he would get . . . He *said* he wished his parents had done it ---- but, clearly, there are other guys who feel the opposite way! (Plus, being a guy in college ---- well, he had kinda particular reason for wanting to make sure he had no odor 'down there' )

That is a shame he felt that way. There had to be something else going on I think. In my case, I have done, and still do, a lot of back country backpacking in just about every range of climates and have been in the position of not being able to wash properly or shower for days. I can't say that I've ever noticed a particularly bad odor there. In fact, the worst part of that is an odor but it comes from a different part of the body a bit higher up.

And, I've never had someone who would be in a position to know tell me otherwise. I hope you'll think twice about it when the time comes again. There are a lot of people here who circed one or more before they knew.

[nettieferg]

Originally Posted by MCatLvrMom2A&X

It is possible that he had a yeast infection or something similar that could have been easily fixed if he had a dr or saw a dr who knew what it was.

If he was so dissatisfied he should have went in for a circ but he obviously knew he would be missing something should he do that.

He might also have had a sexual encounter with a person who was ignorent of the intact penis and they popped off about it and he took it to heart.

Good Point!

Have to have health insurance to do that . . . but that's a different rant!

Another excellent point.

. . . posters like yourself & JW are very helpful, because, unfortunately, I let this person's experience color my opinion and help make my choice. Judging from what others on this board have experienced, my 'good' experience sounds like a rarity.

In response to another post -- yes, I agree there is no right way to do a wrong thing, but I am not sure how that helps me now. Yes, I *could* beat myself up and be a depressed mom, or, I could let it go, and continue becoming more informed for the future.

I looked at the increased risk for cervical cancer in women, and at the UTI issue (being a frequent sufferer myself, and having been hospitalized TWICE for a week each time, almost died on one of those occasions -- the infection had spread into my kidneys, and then my blood) ---- I did what I THOUGHT was right (given my limited experience of 'okay' circs ---- 2 brothers, my dad, hubby -- prior relationships).

The reason I am HERE is to LEARN about the other side, and I sincerely appreciate those posters who have been considerate enough to politely inform/educate me.

[3pink1blue]

just because your DF has "no problems" doesn't mean your son wouldn't. two of the four circed guys ive been with had severe sexual dysfunction due to their circumcisions. and how many men would ever actually admit to having an "inferior" penis, even if it were true? not many that i know, anyway.

leave it up to your (future) son to decide. it can always be taken off, but never put back.

[Fellow Traveler]

Originally Posted by nettieferg

Good Point!

Have to have health insurance to do that . . . but that's a different rant!

Another excellent point.

. . . posters like yourself & JW are very helpful, because, unfortunately, I let this person's experience color my opinion and help make my choice. Judging from what others on this board have experienced, my 'good' experience sounds like a rarity.

Well, like I said I don't think we should focus on the experience good or bad but just the act itself.

Originally Posted by nettieferg

Good Point!
In response to another post -- yes, I agree there is no right way to do a wrong thing, but I am not sure how that helps me now. Yes, I *could* beat myself up and be a depressed mom, or, I could let it go, and continue becoming more informed for the future.

I, and most other here, agree that it does no good to dwell on the past. One does exactly what you are doing, learn more and make a better choice next time. That's why we're here. Like I said, there are many people here who did circumcise one or more sons before they really dug into it. So I hope you'll continue to contribute with that goal.

Originally Posted by nettieferg

Good Point!
I looked at the increased risk for cervical cancer in women, and at the UTI issue (being a frequent sufferer myself, and having been hospitalized TWICE for a week each time, almost died on one of those occasions -- the infection had spread into my kidneys, and then my blood) ---- I did what I THOUGHT was right (given my limited experience of 'okay' circs ---- 2 brothers, my dad, hubby -- prior relationships).

The reason I am HERE is to LEARN about the other side, and I sincerely appreciate those posters who have been considerate enough to politely inform/educate me.

Most of those reasons are 'overblown'. It's important to consider them in perspective. For example, UTI are rare in boys and the purported protection has only been shown for boys under about 6 months. Even if circumcision does protect against them, the actual difference is very small. The cervical cancer link is equally small, if it exists at all. A lot of times when you hear about benefits of circumcision they say, it reduces this or that by some big percent. But they don't tell you that even with such a big relative reduction (if you were to even believe the numbers) the actual reduction, especially in a first world country, is usually very small. Meaning you have to circumcise say 1,000 or 2,000 or more to maybe derive a benefit. Plus, they rarely consider (or mention) the fact that the benefit can be more easily, safely, and more effectively be realized in better ways.

It's tough to see through the dogma when it surrounds you but we can help you. So if you want to discuss specifics, let us know we're here for that. I hope you'll stick around and learn.