smoking pot while pregnant.. is it safe? - Page 9

[BoringTales]

Originally Posted by karina5

A small hit of pot doesn't make everyone stoned, if that's what you're getting at.

What exactly is the point of smoking pot if its not to get stoned?

Originally Posted by poiyt

For some people - yes.

Then, yes, I'd say they are selfish and irresponsible.

Originally Posted by Storm Bride

I don't see how it says anything negative about a person's parenting, or potential parenting, if they research something, determine that it's not bad for their baby, and choose to use/do that something on occasion. There's no universal rule that says that the more enjoyable things you avoid for your baby, the better parent you'll be. Giving up everything you like doesn't automatically make you a good parent. In fact, ime, some of the worst parents are the ones who choose to play the martyr card at every opportunity.

If that *something* is smoking pot, and they came to that conclusion, I'd question their reading and comprehension skills. NO reputable source will tell you it is *safe* to smoke pot while pregnant. NONE.

Originally Posted by sg784

Quoting "marijuana is dangerous" from a STATE website is like quoting "Vaccines are safe" from the cdc.

There is ABSOLUTELY NO RESEARCH to prove that marijuana is dangerous in pregnancy. prove me wrong! I dare ya!

I will not accept studies as proof if they were uncontrolled, if mothers used tobacco, or any other street drug, or if the study was government funded.

Just like you wouldnt accept a study about the SAFETY of vaccines from a uncontrolled study that was govenrment funded.

Nobody is advocating "getting stoned" for 9 mos!!!! The ORIGINAL POSTER asked

"Is it safe to baby to occassionally smoke pot while pregnant? I can't find any lit. on it, because no one will admit to it or test it. What about it is dangerous? Just that it's smoke? Does what does in your lungs get to the baby?"

and to quote the mdc user agreement AGAIN,
"Our discussions on the boards are about the real world of mothering and are first and foremost, for support and information. "

Support and Information !!!!!!! Not propaganda!!!!!!

Exactly....especially the "not propaganda" part...

Please, quote for me where you've found this research saying marijuana use during pregnancy is "safe". Bonus points if you use sources that aren't hightimes.com or norml.com

I'll be back with my legitimate sources that state that there ARE proven health risks to smoking marijuana while pregnant...

[poiyt]

I will answer your questions directly - though no one on the other side has answered mine. Remembering this is my opinion.

1. I totally agree - it growing in the ground doesnt make it definately safe. I wont use something/eat something simply because it comes from the earth. I think the point here is that it has not been proven harmful and when the choice between two things that work (for morning sickness, stress..etc) is something that grows from the ground or something manufactured in a lab - many people feel more comfortable with something from the earth.

2. I have my degree in crim/law - so I may approach the law from a different perspective. There are a lot of things that re illegal or criminalized (Im in Canada) that even law makers dont agree with - they just are that way due to social stigma or because the government doesnt see fit to change (prohibition was taken away in part because people still did it (as they do with pot) and because the government realized they could make a KILLING off of it...its the same reasons cigarettes are still legal..taxes!) Simply because something is illegal doesnt mean I am going to avoid it based on that ground alone. I dont commit murder just because its illegal - I dont commit murder because I think its wrong to take a persons life. Does that analogy make sense?

3. I actually dont understand your last question completely but would be glad to answer if you would explain.

[poiyt]

Originally Posted by BoringTales

What exactly is the point of smoking pot if its not to get stoned?

When you have a really hot bath, while reading a good book and your kids are out and the house is clean and you are able to truly relax.....or...when you got for a 10k run all by yourself in the woods...or meditate....or do yoga...anything that allows you to relax, take a breath, and see things from a clearer perspective you are getting the same feelings (and releasing many of the same chemicals) as a person who uses MJ but doesnt get high every time.

[sg784]

Originally Posted by MyZoeJane

There are three points I think are important that I made in this previous post and that people still are not addressing. I am curious as to why?

1. Just because it grows in the ground DOES NOT MAKE IT SAFER THAN SOMETHING MADE IN A LAB.

2. Pot is illegal in most cases and could land you with heavy fines, in jail, or cost you your kids.

3. By insinuating that smoking pot is "safe" during pregnancy, one is irresponsibly creating a contrived opinion that less intelligent people might not be able to correctly interpret.

Are these not important facts to consider?

#1. Agreed, I have never liked the "well its not synthetic" argument. Petroleum is "natural" but doesnt mean its "safe" That argument is not part of my basis for my viewpoint on mj.

2. I did adress this in one of the first few pages. Its about risk. and its not illegal everywhere, many states have legalized it or decriminalized it.

3. By insinuating that ANYTHING....homebirth, not vaxing your kids, etc are SAFE one is irresponsibly creating a contrived opinion that less intelligent people might not be able to correctly interpret.

Think about it....a person who reads "vaccines are not safe" and her research stops there.....she refuses to vax, and then places her chidren unknowingly in a situation where they contract a "vaccine preventable" disease and die!!!???????? Who is responsible? Is it my fault for writing that my research leads me to that I dont vax? Of course not!

So, if we use your logic, less intelligent people make assumptions and dont research fully enough to make an informed decision, therefore, we, as a more intelligent person have a responsibility to .......not talk to them? Reassure them we are much more intelligent and therefore they should go about their mainstream way? How should I decide who a less intelligent person is? Should I request an iq before speaking to someone or posting a response on a board?

I dont think you have a good argument at all.

[sg784]

Originally Posted by BoringTales

What exactly is the point of smoking pot if its not to get stoned?
Then, yes, I'd say they are selfish and irresponsible.

If that *something* is smoking pot, and they came to that conclusion, I'd question their reading and comprehension skills. NO reputable source will tell you it is *safe* to smoke pot while pregnant. NONE.

Exactly....especially the "not propaganda" part...

Please, quote for me where you've found this research saying marijuana use during pregnancy is "safe". Bonus points if you use sources that aren't hightimes.com or norml.com

I'll be back with my legitimate sources that state that there ARE proven health risks to smoking marijuana while pregnant...

Pediatrics, February 1994, Volume 93, Number 2, pp. 254-260.
American Academy of Pediatrics

From the Schools of Nursing, Education, and Public Health, the University of Massachusetts, Amherst.
Received for publication Sep 21, 1992; accepted Jun 30, 1993.
Reprint requests to (M.D.) School of Nursing, the University of Massachusetts,
111 Arnold House, Amherst, MA 01003.
Pediatrics (ISSN 0031 4005). Copyright © 1994 by the American Academy of Pediatrics.
Prenatal Marijuana Exposure and Neonatal Outcomes in Jamaica:
An Ethnographic Study

Melanie C. Dreher, PhD; Kevin Nugent, PhD; and Rebekah Hudgins, MA

Located HERE

And DR Melanie Dreher explaining her findings

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9WorIM0RhA

[BoringTales]

Originally Posted by MyZoeJane

There are three points I think are important that I made in this previous post and that people still are not addressing. I am curious as to why?

1. Just because it grows in the ground DOES NOT MAKE IT SAFER THAN SOMETHING MADE IN A LAB.

2. Pot is illegal in most cases and could land you with heavy fines, in jail, or cost you your kids.

3. By insinuating that smoking pot is "safe" during pregnancy, one is irresponsibly creating a contrived opinion that less intelligent people might not be able to correctly interpret.

Are these not important facts to consider?

: Someone who is actually making sense in this thread!!! :

Originally Posted by poiyt

When you have a really hot bath, while reading a good book and your kids are out and the house is clean and you are able to truly relax.....or...when you got for a 10k run all by yourself in the woods...or meditate....or do yoga...anything that allows you to relax, take a breath, and see things from a clearer perspective you are getting the same feelings (and releasing many of the same chemicals) as a person who uses MJ but doesnt get high every time.

No, it doesn't. Don't talk to me as if I've never smoked pot before. I have, many times. It is *not* the same, at all.

And yes...to answer a previous question...I think all other things being equal, a sober parent beats a stoned parent...every time.

[BoringTales]

Here's a quote from SCIENCE magazine... You need to register to view it though....

Marijuana and Developmental Damage
The effects of marijuana are mediated by cannabinoid receptors on neurons in the brain, and a causal
relationship between marijuana use during pregnancy and permanent cognitive deficits in the offspring
has been identified. Berghuis et al.
(p. 1212) now define the molecular hierarchy that
controls marijuana actions within single neurons
and show that activation of cannabinoid receptors
by their natural ligands controls the establishment
of functional connections between neurons
in the brain. These findings define the cellular
context through which prenatal marijuana use
perturbs brain development.

[BoringTales]

Another one...

This quote is from Join Together, which is 'anti-drug', but the study it is summarizing is taken from a non-biased source.

Marijuana, Prescription Drugs Could Hurt Fetal Brain Development
June 18, 2008


Marijuana and other drugs that interfere with the signaling system in the brain could have a negative impact on fetal development, according to researchers at the University of Aberdeen in Scotland.

The BBC reported June 16 that researchers said that pregnant women should avoid smoking marijuana or using other substances -- including drugs prescribed for obesity or other conditions -- that act on the brain systems that allow nerve cells to communicate.

"Our initial findings showed the importance of these naturally occurring molecules in guiding the growth and connections of nerve cells in the developing brain," said lead researcher Jan Mulder. "Now we demonstrate the extent of this signaling system and that complex network of neurons -- the backbones of higher cognitive functions -- do not develop normally when endocannabinoid signaling is disturbed."

"Our findings highlight that the integrity of this signaling system should be maintained and not disrupted if the brain is to develop normally," said researcher Tibor Harkany. "Anything that disrupts this process such as cannabis smoking or certain drugs that interfere with this signaling system could ultimately affect the brain's functionality."

The study was published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

[sg784]

Originally Posted by BoringTales

Here's a quote from SCIENCE magazine... You need to register to view it though....

Pardon my skepticism, I'd like to read an actual abstract or something describing the details of the studies, and what factors were present to give these results. Just because its in science magazine doesnt make it a valid controlled study unfunded by the US War on drugs.

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by MyZoeJane

1. Just because it grows in the ground DOES NOT MAKE IT SAFER THAN SOMETHING MADE IN A LAB.

True. Conversely, something being made in a lab and sold OTC (or prescribed by a doctor) does not make it safer than something grown in the ground. The substances need to be judged on their own merits.

2. Pot is illegal in most cases and could land you with heavy fines, in jail, or cost you your kids.

That's theoretically possible. I'm in Canada, so I don't know how different it is here, but I've never heard of anyone going to jail or losing their kids over smoking pot. Most people I've met wouldn't even report that, unless they felt there was a habit and/or dependency that had reached the point where it was interfering with the care of the child(ren).

3. By insinuating that smoking pot is "safe" during pregnancy, one is irresponsibly creating a contrived opinion that less intelligent people might not be able to correctly interpret.

Huh? If I'm reading this right, I'm not sure why you'd even be at MDC (and I'm not one to pull out the "I can't believe I'm seeing this on MDC" sentiment every two seconds). One of the defining concepts of this community is that people here, by and large, try to find out what's best for their children, and act on that, instead of merely accepting what's handed out by the authorities. There are many, many areas where the shades of grey and contradictory research are present, and many (all?) places where intelligence and common sense has to trump an arbitrary rule. I believe homebirth is safe. I'm not quite as sold on UC, but believe it's safe for the majority of women. If somebody picks up on my "contrived opinion" about this, and chooses to have a homebirth, despite massive pregnancy complications, that in no way undermines my views on homebirth. It means that deciding something is safe just because a bunch of people tell you they've determined that it is makes no more sense than just doing whatever a doctor tells you.

If I convince someone that circ is dangerous and and leaving a penis intact is safe, I'll be happy. OTOH, if I forget to mention that retraction is a really bad practice, that person could damage their son's penis. That doesn't mean I'm going to avoid saying that circ is dangerous, because a "less intelligent person might not be able to correctly interpret" that statement.

There are many examples of this kind of thing, and it's not a reasonable thing to base one's decisions on.

[Mommal]

Pot during pregnancy? I didn't drink wine or smoke cigarettes or eat unpasteurized cheese during pregnancy- so why would I take a chance on marijuana? One piece of brie, a few cigarettes, a glass of wine every day, and a marijauna brownie are not going to kill your baby. They probably won't even harm it. But why take a chance?

Just because marijuana is a herb doesn't mean it's not also a drug. Digitalis, for example, is both a lovely garden herb (foxglove) and a drug that can kill you if you take too much.

Laying aside the ethical considerations of purchasing a drug and supporting all the unsavory activities that go along with the supply chain, there's no knowing how potent the pot you smoke or infuse or eat really is. Unlike (say) Tylenol, which has a known quantity of active substance in each pill, marijuana can have a little THC in it, or a lot. And, unless you grew it yourself, you don't know what it's mixed with. Just ask my friend who got some laced with LSD by accident.

Here are a few abstracts of scientific papers on marijuana during pregnancy:

- EFFECT OF MARIJUANA USE IN PREGNANCY ON FETAL GROWTH. Hatch, E.E. and Bracken, M.B. American Journal of Epidemiology Vol. 124, No. 6: 986-993. In a prospective study of 3,857 pregnancies ending in singleton live births at Yale-New Haven Hospital, New Haven, Connecticut, in 1980–1982,9.5% of mothers reported using marijuana (4.1% occasionally and 5.4% at least 2–3 times monthly). Among whtte women, regular use was associated with an increased risk of delivering a low birth weight (<2,500 gm) infant (odds ratio (OR) = 2.6, 95% confidence interval (CI) = 1.1–6.2) and small for gestational age infant (OR = 2.3, 95% CI = 1.3–4.1) after adjustment for other risk factors. Nonwhite marijuana users were not at further increased risk for delivering a low birth weight or small for gestational age infant beyond the elevated rates of these conditions already experienced by nonwhites in general. Marijuana use was also related to preterm delivery (gestational age <37 weeks from last menstrual period) in white women (OR = 1.9, 95% CI = 1.0–3.9) but not nonwhtte women. Occasional use was unrelated to the risk of low birth weight, small for gestational age, or preterm delivery.

- Marijuana use during pregnancy and decreased length of gestation.
Fried, PA, Watkinson, B, Willan, A. AM. J. OBSTET. GYNECOL. Vol. 150, no. 1, pp. 23-26. 1984. In a prospective study the relationship of marijuana use during pregnancy to infant birth weight and length of gestation was examined in 583 women who delivered single live infants. Eighty-four women used marijuana to varying degrees during pregnancy. Marijuana, alcohol, smoking, and nutritional habits were estimated by repeated interviews. Compared to nonuse, an average use of marijuana six or more times per week during pregnancy was associated with a statistically significant reduction of 0.8 weeks in the length of gestation after consideration of the effects of nicotine, alcohol, parity, mother's prepregnancy weight, and the sex of the infant. With similar adjustments no reduction in birth weight was noted. Among the heavy marijuana users the effect on gestation length was dose dependent.

-The association of marijuana use with outcome of pregnancy. S Linn et. al. American Journal of Public Health, Vol. 73, Issue 10 1161-1164. We analyzed interview and medical record data of 12,424 women to evaluate the relationship between marijuana usage and adverse outcomes of pregnancy. Low birthweight, short gestation, and major malformations occurred more often among offspring of marijuana users. When we used logistic regression to control for demographic characteristics, habits, and medical history data, these relationships were not statistically significant. The odds ratio for the occurrence of major malformations among marijuana users was 1.36, higher than odds ratios for other exogenous variables, and the 95 per cent confidence interval was 0.97-1.91. More data are needed to establish firmly or rule out an association between marijuana usage and major malformations. Until more information is available, women should be advised not to use marijuana during pregnancy.

If you're interested in reading more, check out Google Scholar.

[karina5]

One thing that bugs me is b/c of the propaganda and the horrible, wasteful, racist and ridiculous War on Drugs there are not a lot of studies out there about moderate pot use being unharmful to babies.

The Drerer study is a good one, and seems to be respected because it is actually scientific. If I recall the study was initially intended to show that pot was harmful, but then ended up doing the opposite.

What's very interesting is that there aren't studies showing that pot is harmful, either.
(Again, *good* studies, not propaganda).

The bottom line: If you don't smoke pot during your pregnancy, fine. But mothers who do smoke moderate amounts of pot during their pregnancy are fine, too. :-)


ETA: I see those studies and aren't they saying that there are other factors to consider, etc...?
One of them says, "More data are needed to establish firmly or rule out an association between marijuana usage and major malformations" so that leads me to believe that they are not conclusive results.

[karina5]

Also, the key here is MODERATE amounts. (Yes, a gray area )

All the many, many, many, MANY women I know who smoked pot while pregnant did it a maximum of a few times per month. While their nausea was particularly bad, or in my case, my depression/anxiety were debilitating.

Someone that is smoking pot all day is definitely going to be hurting their lungs, and that is a far cry from someone who is having a puff or 2 every once in a while.

Sometimes it seems that anti-pot crowd seems to think that Anyone Who Smokes Pot EVER = Cheeto Eating Spacecase on the Couch and that is just not the case.

[sg784]

These studies included other drugs, and tobacco. well except maybe the first one it just plain didnt say wether it was a controlled study or not. nak

[sg784]

Originally Posted by karina5

sometimes it seems that anti-pot crowd seems to think that anyone who smokes pot ever = cheeto eating spacecase on the couch and that is just not the case.

ita!!!!!

[karina5]

Originally Posted by sg784

These studies included other drugs, and tobacco. well except maybe the first one it just plain didnt say wether it was a controlled study or not. nak

Yeah, that's what I thought, too. There aren't really studies in the US b/c of the War on Drugs propaganda and that is a shame.

[karina5]

Originally Posted by sg784

ita!!!!!

Hey, what happened to the capital letters?? LOL.

[Anniebird]

The notion of "getting high" or "stoned" really seems to evoke people's sense of moral outrage.

Getting "high"--being happy, altering our consciousness--is part of being human. Eating sugar, drinking coffee, religious experiences, driving fast, children's play, yoga practice as someone else mentioned, are as close to being high as you can get. Some of these experiences are just more socially acceptable than others.

In a free society, one chooses for herself how to get 'high' and it's none of your business.


And for those of you who are convinced there is no research proving the safety of mj while pregnant, don't you think researchers and scientists have already tried to prove just how "dangerous" and "harmful" it is??? They have, researchers such as Peter Fried have tried and they can't. If it were the case that there are subtle effects on the baby from mj use they just haven't been able to pin down yet (?), how would these compare with the effects of environmental degradation, the household chemicals we use, the horomones in our food?

Besides, there are no statistics on marijuana deaths (because they don't happen) compared with alcohol consumption, smoking, prescription drugs.
Even Francis L. Young, DEA Chief Administrative Law Judge, 1988, has said that "Marijuana, in its natural form, is one of the safest therapeutically active substances known."

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by karina5

ETA: I see those studies and aren't they saying that there are other factors to consider, etc...?
One of them says, "More data are needed to establish firmly or rule out an association between marijuana usage and major malformations" so that leads me to believe that they are not conclusive results.

Yup. Of the other two studies, one referred to "regular" users, and the other mentioned women smoking six times a week.

The fact that one study mentioned a difference in results between "white" and "non-white" users also seems strange. It makes me wonder if there are some other factors that aren't being considered, yk? Maybe frequent pot smokers who are white also tend to have different eating habits, heavier consumption of other substances (several pot users I've known have also been caffeine junkies, because they do the upper/downer thing), etc? I mean...it just seems strange to me that pot's effect on a fetus would be different, depending on the mother's ethnicity.

[SunShineSally]

Originally Posted by Storm Bride

That's theoretically possible. I'm in Canada, so I don't know how different it is here, but I've never heard of anyone going to jail or losing their kids over smoking pot. Most people I've met wouldn't even report that, unless they felt there was a habit and/or dependency that had reached the point where it was interfering with the care of the child(ren

I am in NY right about less than 15 minutes from Niagara Falls Canada so first I want to say
Now my friend almost had her son taken away from her because of pot now I do not rember every detail of what happened what I do remember is that her Ds was with his father he had smoked some pot then when they went to the store of something he got in an accedent he had pot and a bowl in the glove compartment my friend had to go to parenting classes and safety classes (she wasnt even there AND had not traces of pot in her system!!!!) they told her that was the only way that she could keep her Ds because SHE put him in harms way by allowing him to go with someone who would be under the influance of an illegal substance! She was one of my best friends until she moved out of state a few years back she actualymoved a year after this whole thing got settled she never did anything wrong and she was made out to look worse than him and she wasn't even in the car she was with me when she got the call so it is possible this is personally the only case I ever heard of but it can happen and it is not always taken lightly I think it depends on the athority figures personal views and in her case she did not take this lightly. again I do not remember all the details but I do know she was never in trouble with the law before and had a wonderful job and was also in collage at the time too. He was never in trouble eighter so this was the first thing for both and she was not even there!!! (I still cannot get over that fact )
Karen