Indulgences Return, and Heaven Moves a Step Closer for Catholics - Page 2

[Tradd]

Originally Posted by chfriend

spero, I think the idea of indulgences being applied to others (for example loved ones in purgatory) is related to the idea of the communion of saints. It is a form of intercessory prayer.

You pray for me and I'll pray for you kind of thing. I know there's a scripture for that somewhere....My non-denominational dp would know....

When I was in Catholic school (from 8th grade through high school graduation), I remember on All Souls Day they'd have us go into the church for a while to pray. Every Our Father, Hail Mary, and Glory Be you said got someone out of purgatory, we were told. Needless to say, us kids raced through our prayers.

I'm no longer Catholic. I spent five years with the Episcopalians, but then when I realized how messed up things were there and a friend pointed me in the direction of Orthodox Christianity. When I was beginning to think about leaving the Episcopal Church, I started looking into Catholicism again, but it didn't take long for me to decide against it. And yes, I read the Catechism, but the indulgences, among with a whole bunch of other things...I had never been comfortable with a lot of things in the RCC, and reading more as an an adult didn't result in me changing my mind.

[spero]

As part of a 2-year formation for ministry program, I have just finished a fascinating course in Catholic Church history. IMO all Catholics should know an objective history of their faith.

I pulled out my textbook (Church History: Twenty Centuries of Catholic Christianity by John C. Dwyer - a Catholic theologian & professor of theology and scripture) to look at the question of indulgences, because I am seeing some misinformation in his thread.

Firstly, the theology of indulgences developed in the eleventh century. It wasn't something that "always was". The premise was that Jesus through His death somehow won a great supply of merit, and that this merit was set up in a sort of treasury that was available (at the Church's discretion, of course) to dispense to those who performed good works.

Originally Posted by chfriend

spero, I think the idea of indulgences being applied to others (for example loved ones in purgatory) is related to the idea of the communion of saints. It is a form of intercessory prayer.

You pray for me and I'll pray for you kind of thing. I know there's a scripture for that somewhere....My non-denominational dp would know....

This is true; however, the original concept of the practice of indulgences was that the individual performing the good works got the "time off" purgatory. It wasn't until the thirteenth century that it was acknowledged that one could gain indulgences for those ALREADY in purgatory. During this time, church authorities started offering indulgences for "the financing of good works", which led to many abuses of the practice - one of Martin Luther's hot button issues.

By the 14th-15th centuries, the practice of selling church offices and indulgences had become a common abuse in the Catholic Church. The "good work" required for an indulgence became a financial contribution demanded by the Church.

Originally Posted by JMJ

I was taught in school that there used to be a widespread practice of selling indulgences.

This is true. See above.

Since most of us don't die perfect, I still believe that we can go through Purgatory (as a place or state of being) after death to purify ourselves of any sins that we still have on our souls at the time of our death.

Originally Posted by PatienceAndLove

I always understood purgatory as the Purifying Fire of the Holy Spirit.

NOBODY dies perfect, that would be impossible. I don't doubt that we are purified somehow at death, I just don't believe the whole "purgatory" concept as our sole means of purification.

Originally Posted by lilyka

OT: Paying for a mass doesn't bother me either . . i consider it an offering, a sacrifice. In the past people would bring oil for the lamps and candles for light. we still have oil in the lamps and candles in the stand, you just offer money and they are waiting to be lit now. but really, same thing. people at my church do still bring food and flowers and what not as an offering to God.

The problem that I have seen is that, when some people pay to have a memorial Mass, they get the idea that they somehow "own" that Mass and can dictate certain things about it. "Paying for a Mass" is just such a fine line. Some churches charge their fee based on whether the Mass "intention" is verbally announced, or just mentioned somewhere in the bulletin.

Our pastor became so uncomfortable with these practices, that our parish no longer requires any $$$ to request a Mass Memorial. All memorials are announced AND printed in the bulletin. Rather than stating, "Today's Mass intention is offered for ____________", we say, "______________ is especially remembered at our Mass today". Nuances are everything when you're talking about this stuff!

Originally Posted by Smylingeyz

Many of the beautiful traditions of the Faith have been forgotten by a good percentage of Catholics, who are often not taught much about the Catholic Faith. It's sad, because the culture around Catholicism is so rich and beautiful. But nothing ever went away, including indulgences. Weird that anyone would think they did.

The "tradition" of "limbo" went away (thank goodness). And indulgences aren't a tradition of the early Church, as stated above.

[PatienceAndLove]

Originally Posted by spero

The "tradition" of "limbo" went away (thank goodness). And indulgences aren't a tradition of the early Church, as stated above.

Limbo isn't something the Church rules on. We are free to believe or disbelieve in it.

[spero]

Originally Posted by PatienceAndLove

Limbo isn't something the Church rules on. We are free to believe or disbelieve in it.

Technically true, but they kept that caveat pretty quiet and treated it like doctrine for a LONG time. And hurt so many people in the process. eta: Many, many Catholic cemeteries have areas well apart from the rest of the cemetery that were once for the unbaptised babies. I think that SUCKS.

[In Exile]

Hm, they meddle "meatless fridays" into the mix as a thing that nobody does?? Heck all things mentioned in the article never went away. My husband is waaaay under 50 and never ate meat on Fridays, especially during Lent.

I went through RCIA as an Adult and I am surprised to hear about these "things coming back."
Oh well. I also don't trust Wikipedia on anything "catholic", quite frankly there are better sources to find out about any of these.

[spero]

Originally Posted by In Exile

I also don't trust Wikipedia on anything "catholic", quite frankly there are better sources to find out about any of these.

I don't see where anyone referenced Wiki in this thread. Enlighten me.

[In Exile]

I said "also", could have said "as well". In addition to the NYT. Is that really so important?

I ALSO don't don't tend to get much Info from Wiki. Last I checked my dictionary the word "also" can be used they way I did. Some people mentioned the NYT as new source on all things catholic and I ALSO mentioned Wikipedia.

Does that suffice??

[mykdsmomy]

I was raised a die hard Catholic. (we attend a basic Christian church now). Anyway, I went to Catholic school for 8 years and taught Catechism for many years. I can tell you that my parents (and their generation backwards) were WAY more "traditional" than what I was taught in schools.
My parents had us saying the rosary ever night as a family. We said prayers before every meal, went to church every Sunday and every holy day (unless we were on our death bed). We made all our sacraments. We "offered up" any little ouch or discomfort "for the poor souls in purgatory", she bought candles for lighting at church when someone was sick, etc.
They paid for masses for close friends or family when they passed away. We spent Ash Wednesday fasting in between meals, no meat on Fridays, no talking between 12-3pm on Good Friday (or eating between meals) and we had to tell her what we were giving up each week for lent. It was very traditional in the sense that most of the people in our Catholic school hadn't heard of the traditions our family held.
Like many other religions, I think Catholicism has evolved and changed within itself. There are some congregations that are more strict than others.
(Sorry if that was OT)

[PatienceAndLove]

Originally Posted by mykdsmomy

I was raised a die hard Catholic. (we attend a basic Christian church now). Anyway, I went to Catholic school for 8 years and taught Catechism for many years. I can tell you that my parents (and their generation backwards) were WAY more "traditional" than what I was taught in schools.
My parents had us saying the rosary ever night as a family. We said prayers before every meal, went to church every Sunday and every holy day (unless we were on our death bed). We made all our sacraments. We "offered up" any little ouch or discomfort "for the poor souls in purgatory", she bought candles for lighting at church when someone was sick, etc.
They paid for masses for close friends or family when they passed away. We spent Ash Wednesday fasting in between meals, no meat on Fridays, no talking between 12-3pm on Good Friday (or eating between meals) and we had to tell her what we were giving up each week for lent. It was very traditional in the sense that most of the people in our Catholic school hadn't heard of the traditions our family held.
Like many other religions, I think Catholicism has evolved and changed within itself. There are some congregations that are more strict than others.
(Sorry if that was OT)

Not at all. I appreciate your insight!