DS getting into fights at school-update post 32

[Ruthla]

DS has been getting into fights in school lately. He's 7 and in 2nd grade. I'm at a complete loss about how to help him. Apparently a certain boy, S, has been teasing him for a while. Today DS and S got into a physical fight at school and got brought into the vice principal's office. DS can't remember what the VP told him. He and S aren't friends and S has been bothering DS for a while now.

Last week, he got into a fight with a different child. The other boy's mother called me up around dinnertime to tell me that her child was in pain and blamed DS for the injuries. After talking to DS, it turns out that it started with an accident. They were playing foosball and one of the poles got jammed into the other boy's stomach while they were playing (so, yes, DS is the one who moved the pole that resulted in injury, but he was looking at the game, not the location of the other child, when it happened.) But then the two boys started fighting, were interupted by the lunch lady (who works in the main office when it's not lunchtime) and then went on to continue fighting after she was out of sight!

When I took DS into school the next day, I found out that she was trying to avoid getting the kids into trouble so she didn't report them to the principal. I told her that I wanted to be informed if this happens again- please don't ignore violence!

So today he was brought to the principal's office, but I wasn't called. I would have liked to hear from another adult EXACTLY what is going on and what the school is doing to try and fix this. But, rather than getting a call from the school, DS told me about it during the evening, after school was closed for the day. The school is now closed until Tuesday. :

I keep impressing upon DS that violence is NOT acceptable, so I'm not sure what's going on with him at school. Should I do anything else with DS at home? What should I ask the school to do?

Ugh, I'm just feeling "out of my league" here. I have zero experience with school fighting- my daughters never went through this, I never went through this, even my brother never went through this when we were growing up!

[SunshineJ]

Before anything, I'd try to get all the details and the full story. For example, where your son accidentally hit the other kid with the fooseball pole and they started fighting, did your son throw the first punch after that or did he apologize, did the other child start hitting him first, etc. If your kid was trying to apologize and the other kid started hitting him, I can see that it may have been more instinct to fight back and defend himself rather than get hit while going to the teacher (not saying it's the "right" way to respond, but it makes sense). If your son started the fight, then that would make my approach to the situation different. As for the situation with S where you said he's been teasing your son for some time, what steps have been taken to stop the harrassment your son is dealing with from this child? Regardless of how much violence isn't the answer, there comes a time with many children (and adults)where they can only be pushed for so long before they "snap". Depending on if that were or were not the case would also determine my reaction, as well as those two events taken as a whole.

K.

[kathymuggle]

It sounds like he is fighting when there is little supervision.

I know the school my children used to go to had some luck with the following:

1. A program whereby older children often played organised games (like foursquare) with younger kids. The older kids got to be mentors, and the younger ones had role models and slight supervision. It was win-win.

2. Some children get to be teachers, janitors, etc helpers at recess and lunch. It is often done to keep them busy, and out of trouble.

3. alternatives to outdoor recess - such as a supervised art room - may lure your son in -hence he won't fight.

Being very clear with him on when it is Ok to fight (never? in self defense?) and what the difference is between self defense and retaliation, can only help.

I also think it is essential that the adults in his life "fix" the teasing situation. If he has been teased for a while, I am not suprised he hit the teaser. It might have been the only way he saw to stop the situation. He has to know adults can and will protect him and he does not need to resort to violence. Of course, his part in this is he has to tell adults what is going on. Hard order for a 7 year old (stress the difference between telling and tattling)

Good luck, mama.

[Ruthla]

Now, to make matters even worse DS BIT ME this evening! He was playing on the computer, and I told him it was time to stop playing and get ready for bed. He asked to play one more game and I said OK. When that game was over, he refused to stop playing, so I leaned over and took the mouse and turned off the game for him- at which point he responded by biting me and then he ran off into his room and locked the door.

I don't know WHAT got into him that made him think biting me was an acceptable thing to do! Storming off into his room and locking the door is appropriate- biting is not! Here I am with an angry, violent little boy and I don't know how to help him or what an appropriate consequence is for this kind of violence.

I don't know what the school is doing to address any of his issues because they haven't contacted me. I'm rather upset that the principal didn't call me this afternoon and let me know exactly what happened and what they were doing about it- instead I heard about it from DS after school had closed.

There hasn't been "outside recess" for weeks due to the weather. I think they may have gotten outside earlier this week, but last week it was much too cold and today was too windy. Both of these incidents happened during indoor recess.

I asked DS who started today's fight and he said "I don't know" which leads me to beleive he threw the first punch.

[kathymuggle]

Oh, mama

I would try to find out if his biting you was an outward manifestation of something that is going on....

Is someone really bothering him at school or elsewhere - that sort of thing. It may take a few days and lots of one on one time to figure out.

I imagine there are further steps to take if the above doesn't work - but it is a good place to start.

Kathy

[ginger_rodgers]

Ruthla, we had issues here with sudden violence out of nowhere a year or so ago -- things that were really out of character for my dd. Most of it aimed at me. I found there were two problems:

1. Her dad was tolerating it and/or laughing it off;
2. I had no idea what was prompting it. I took her to our wonderful play therapist, and my understanding was that much of it had to do with pressure she'd been putting on herself to behave perfectly and insults from another girl at the daycare. This is still an issue here (can you imagine, I've been slipping in little stories about times when good people purposely break rules and times when I got in trouble as a kid, for good reasons and bad), but things were much better after the therapist worked her magic.

[flapjack]

We've had similar issues here, Ruthla. My DS1 was getting bullied at school (mostly verbal, some physical) and eventually enough was enough and he lashed out. Nothing was an accident, every physical contact was an intended assault in his head. He was 9 at the time.
Your DS has obviously internalized that violence is what you do when you're out of options, so at this point I really don't think that telling him not to hit is an option. You're just going to make him feel like crap because his coping skills aren't up to the demands of being around 7yo boys- he knows you don't approve already. I'd strongly recommend talking to a therapist so he can work on his emotional vocabulary and working in partnership with the school. They have resources you don't.

[Delicateflower]

You don't spank, right? If you do the first I would do would be to stop, because it's a totally mixed message. It's not OK to hit unless you're bigger and older than the person you're hitting.

[Ruthla]

Nope, I don't spank and never have. I know he's got a bunch of issues with school- he's VERY behind in the Hebrew portion of the day (they learn Hebrew/Judaic studies in the morning with one teacher and secular studies in the afternoon with another teacher) and that's affecting his self-esteem. I'm definitely not putting him back in this school for 3rd grade. I'm looking into a different Jewish school with a less rigorous Hebrew program, but if that school doesn't work out for him, I'll be putting him in public school. I really don't want to switch schools mid-year though; I want to get this bullying/fighting thing resolved somehow.

While school isn't in session today, I noticed that the school calendar called it "professional development day" rather than "school closed for President's Day Vacation" so I figured the office staff should be there. I just called the school and made an appointment to talk to the principal on Thursday morning (the first available appointment.)

[hotmamacita]

Hi Ruthla,

Is his father involved in his life still? Can you sit with him and talk about this situation and come up with a plan and then both of you sit and talk with your son about this?

[Ruthla]

If his biological father was still involved in our lives, DS would have even more reasons to be violent! It's bad enough my daughters remember what he did to me, DS was still an infant.

He does have a "father figure" (my daughters' father, that all 3 of them call Daddy) who's involved, and visits once or twice a week. Maybe I could ask him if he has any insight.

[ChristaN]

This isn't on topic to your original post, but I would definitely ask for a copy of his school records before you change schools. My concern with leaving him there for the rest of the year if you cannot get this issue resolved relatively quickly is that he may wind up with notes in his school records that he has behavioral problems or is violent. That may create a problem with another private school or a public school of choice (if you don't do the neighborhood school) accepting him next fall.

[Ruthla]

There aren't any charter or magnet schools available around here- the public school legally has to accept him or provide an alternative if his needs are too great for the local public school. He couldn't miss out on anything by a 'bad report' from his current school. And the other private school I'm considering is already in contact with the principal of his current school.

[oceanbaby]

I don't have kids in school, so I don't have much practical advice in regard to that aspect.

However, one part of your post stood out to me. You said you told your ds that violence is not acceptable. I one time was telling my ds that he is never to hit anyone, and later on dh took me aside to talk to me about this. His perspective, as a boy who not only went through school but was also bullied, is that he doesn't want to tell our child that they are never to hit anyone, because sometimes self defense is in order. And he was referring to schoolyard type stuff. He felt very incapable of defending himself as a child, and wants to make sure that his kids don't go through that. He said to me "So, if another kid is hitting ds, he's just supposed to take it?" My response was that he was supposed to run away or get a teacher, and my dh pointed out that in many school situations that was just either not possible, or was asking for more trouble. Dh is not a big macho guy or anything, but he has some very strong opinions on this formed as a result of being the boy that was getting hit.

And I kind of saw his point. Maybe my point of view, as a girl who never really dealt with physical violence at school, was a little unrealistic. Boys are much more physical, and unfortunately, there are often going to be these incidents at school.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is that I would focus more on trying to figure out what is happening, talking to the adults (parents and teachers) about how to solve the issue - increased supervision, etc. - and with your son about different ways he can respond or how to get help. But telling him that he is never allowed to hit or be violent is probably unrealistic.

[momof4peppers]

OH THANK GOD SOMEONE ELSE IS GOING THROUGH THIS!!!!

I'm so sorry - truly - as I am walking in your shoes. Only for us, it's been a year and a half (his ENTIRE public school career) of problems. And now, he's tagged as the bully and the violent one. But if you ask him, HE'S the one who is verbally abused. And when I went to volunteer at the school, yes, he's one of the more spirited boys. And yes, things happen (a little boy threw a ball that accidentally hit DS today, then DS accidentally hit the boy with the hula hoop, little boy CRIED forever, DS got in trouble.)

I've done EVERYTHING. Literally. I"m now at the point where I am volunteering in the school, and at recess, to try to reverse the situation. I'm not so sure I'm going to be successful unless I switch schools. :

But I'm going to try.

[LynnS6]

There's a good book called:

The Challenging Child that might be helpful to read -- one of the things that it talks about for kids who get into these cycles is that their perceptions of things gets distorted and so they need help learning/understanding others' intentions.

[aniT]

Originally Posted by momof4peppers

OH THANK GOD SOMEONE ELSE IS GOING THROUGH THIS!!!!

I'm so sorry - truly - as I am walking in your shoes. Only for us, it's been a year and a half (his ENTIRE public school career) of problems. And now, he's tagged as the bully and the violent one. But if you ask him, HE'S the one who is verbally abused. And when I went to volunteer at the school, yes, he's one of the more spirited boys. And yes, things happen (a little boy threw a ball that accidentally hit DS today, then DS accidentally hit the boy with the hula hoop, little boy CRIED forever, DS got in trouble.)

I've done EVERYTHING. Literally. I"m now at the point where I am volunteering in the school, and at recess, to try to reverse the situation. I'm not so sure I'm going to be successful unless I switch schools. :

But I'm going to try.

I just want to say that my daughter was in trouble all the time from K - the beginning of 1st grade. She wasn't violent or anything (although the school said she bit someone and she said they were playing dogs and she just pretended to bit them.) But she had a "behavior contract" and everything. It really did hurt her self esteem to be in trouble all the time. About 2 months into 1st grade there was an incident where the principal straight up told me that I needed to learn there is a difference between reality and what DD told me. If I didn't like it I was free to go elsewhere. So I switched schools the following Monday and never looked back. DD is now 15 and a sophomore and other than a note passing incident last year hasn't been in trouble at school since!

OP, I knew I would be moving that year and I didn't want to switch schools for DD. I thought it would be better to stay put until we moved so she would have one less change. However the school situation got to the point where I couldn't wait any longer. I do believe it was the best thing for DD. Yes she switched schools twice that year. But when I think about all the damage continuing in the first school could have caused.. I know I made the right choice.

If you think the school is the problem, I would not hesitate to make that move.

[ginger_rodgers]

Ruthla, the part about being behind in the Hebrew part of the day struck a nerve with me. I was in a Schecter day school from 3rd-5th, and spent the entire time feeling like a complete dunce. I just had no facility with other languages at the time -- later on, miraculously, I started learning languages easily, but that didn't come for a good decade or so. I still remember some of the humiliations -- I remember once in 3rd rooting through papers (we were in Lech L'cha, and I was trying to find a particular drawing), and the teacher asked me something in Hebrew. I didn't understand it, so I said "ani lo yodaya" (I don't know), and the whole class laughed because he'd been asking me what I was doing. The whole Hebrew part of the day was very difficult.

If he's living with something like that all the time, and he's a boyish boy, I can see how he might be on a hair trigger. As I recall, there's a real sense of competition among the kids, esp the boys, in facility with the academics, incl. the Hebrew stuff.

I don't know how you'd experiment with that given the school, but is there a way to let him off the hook at least temporarily? I understand that this might stack up pressure because then he'd be even more behind, though.

[Ruthla]

Ginger- I think you hit the nail on the head. Compounding the problem is that he's very young for his grade (he just turned 7 in November) plus he missed a month of school due to pneumonia in October/November, and for another couple of weeks, he went to school late daily (as he needed more sleep while recovering) and missed even more Hebrew classes.

I'm just not sure what to do about it right now. I don't really want to move him out of a Jewish environment if I have other options, and I'm very hesitant to homeschool him. Between his temperment and my physical limitations, as well as the needs of my daughters (who are both homeschooled this year) I seriously doubt my ability to meet ANY of their needs if I have them all at home.

I'm meeting with the principal on Thursday and I plan to let him know ALL of my concerns about DS and how they're related to one another. I want to see if the school can offer any kind of solutions.

[Ruthla]

Originally Posted by LynnS6

There's a good book called:

The Challenging Child that might be helpful to read -- one of the things that it talks about for kids who get into these cycles is that their perceptions of things gets distorted and so they need help learning/understanding others' intentions.

Do you have the author(s) of this book? I just checked my library's online catalog to reserve it, and there are several books with this title. I'm not sure which one you're referring to.