DS getting into fights at school-update post 32 - Page 2

[Altair]

Originally Posted by oceanbaby

However, one part of your post stood out to me. You said you told your ds that violence is not acceptable. I one time was telling my ds that he is never to hit anyone, and later on dh took me aside to talk to me about this. His perspective, as a boy who not only went through school but was also bullied, is that he doesn't want to tell our child that they are never to hit anyone, because sometimes self defense is in order. And he was referring to schoolyard type stuff. He felt very incapable of defending himself as a child, and wants to make sure that his kids don't go through that. He said to me "So, if another kid is hitting ds, he's just supposed to take it?" My response was that he was supposed to run away or get a teacher, and my dh pointed out that in many school situations that was just either not possible, or was asking for more trouble. Dh is not a big macho guy or anything, but he has some very strong opinions on this formed as a result of being the boy that was getting hit.

This is the advice the majority of the parents at my school give their kids. And it just plain doesn't work. When you are in school, the adults are there to keep you safe from being hurt. We have to empower kids to TELL the adults when there is teasing and bullying and hitting so that we can help find the root of the problem and solve it. We have to teach them skills to deal with conflicts in non-physical ways. I would NEVER tell a child to hit back. It escalates the problem and it will get you in trouble just the same as the kid who threw the first punch.

If my child went to a school that did not have conflict resolution and anger management classes in place, I'd be lobbying to include them. Maybe that means getting on the PTA and doing the fundraising myself, because school budgets are so tight right now everything is being cut that isn't 100% essential. The good thing about these kinds of systemic school-wide programs is that they give the adults a common language also.

[fadedgirl]

OP: have you considered putting your child into martial arts? It will teach him sincere discipline and self control -- which sounds like might be very helpful at this point.

It will also teach him to immobilize an attacker and how to best avoid a fight (verbal tactics) or defeat (disengage from a physical altercation) someone with the least amount of abuse possible. It will also teach him one of life's most admirable qualities: to defend those who are incapable of defending themselves.

It also instills an unmatched level of self-confidence.

Since it sounds like your son does not have an in-home father figure, martial arts training could be also be invaluable for him by providing some quality male role models for him to look up to.

PS: If you actually like this school and just feel its a confluence of issues hitting him right now, perhaps they could set up a Hebrew tutor for him to assist him in catching up!

[Emmeline II]

Originally Posted by Altair

This is the advice the majority of the parents at my school give their kids. And it just plain doesn't work. When you are in school, the adults are there to keep you safe from being hurt. We have to empower kids to TELL the adults when there is teasing and bullying and hitting so that we can help find the root of the problem and solve it. We have to teach them skills to deal with conflicts in non-physical ways. I would NEVER tell a child to hit back. It escalates the problem and it will get you in trouble just the same as the kid who threw the first punch.

As one that was bullied through most of school:

The one time I physically fought back I stopped the bully and the school finally paid attention to what was happening.

Bullying usually happens when no adult is looking.

If they are looking they say "break it up kids" and don't do anything else. In Junior High and HS I had to B-E-G to have my locker changed as I was always assigned one right next to my main bully because of our last names.

If you tell an adult, as a child, they expect you to "deal with it".



After reading many bullying threads it does not seem like much has changed.

[AngieB]

Originally Posted by momof4peppers

OH THANK GOD SOMEONE ELSE IS GOING THROUGH THIS!!!!

I'm so sorry - truly - as I am walking in your shoes. Only for us, it's been a year and a half (his ENTIRE public school career) of problems. And now, he's tagged as the bully and the violent one. But if you ask him, HE'S the one who is verbally abused. And when I went to volunteer at the school, yes, he's one of the more spirited boys. And yes, things happen (a little boy threw a ball that accidentally hit DS today, then DS accidentally hit the boy with the hula hoop, little boy CRIED forever, DS got in trouble.)

I've done EVERYTHING. Literally. I"m now at the point where I am volunteering in the school, and at recess, to try to reverse the situation. I'm not so sure I'm going to be successful unless I switch schools. :

But I'm going to try.

We went through the same thing for 3 1/2 years. It was hellish. We switched schools and it is much better. Now ds does not have the lable that made it so easy to blame everything on him.

[kathymuggle]

Originally Posted by Emmeline II

As one that was bullied through most of school:

The one time I physically fought back I stopped the bully and the school finally paid attention to what was happening.

Bullying usually happens when no adult is looking.

If they are looking they say "break it up kids" and don't do anything else. In Junior High and HS I had to B-E-G to have my locker changed as I was always assigned one right next to my main bully because of our last names.

If you tell an adult, as a child, they expect you to "deal with it".



After reading many bullying threads it does not seem like much has changed.

:

I wish I did not have to yeah that.....I really, really wish that telling an adult would put a stop to bullying and agression but it doesn't always.

In my experience I do not think the adults handle things properly once they get the info.

In my DC ex-school:

-bullied child tells
-teacher pulls bully and bullied aside - both sides tell "their side". As no one agree what happened, children are both dismissed. The only way a bully gets in trouble is if he/she gets caught by the teacher (unlikely)


So - what is the point in telling?

Unfortunaltely the above scenario has the added consequence of children believing there is no point in coming to you with problems as you cannot change anything.

I think the way to handle bullying /agression situations is way more complicated and multi-facetted than just "tell an adult".

I think there are 2 responses to behaviour issue situations:

1. Keep the child in the same school and fight, fight, fight for better programs, supervision, treatment.

2. Remove child from situation - either to Hs or to another school.

I would vote for the latter if the first one did not work in fairly short order. It is not fair to the child (or even the parent) to put yourself through hell if there is no hope of resolution in sight.


Hugs,

Kathy

[Altair]

Originally Posted by Emmeline II

As one that was bullied through most of school:

The one time I physically fought back I stopped the bully and the school finally paid attention to what was happening.

Bullying usually happens when no adult is looking.

If they are looking they say "break it up kids" and don't do anything else. In Junior High and HS I had to B-E-G to have my locker changed as I was always assigned one right next to my main bully because of our last names.

If you tell an adult, as a child, they expect you to "deal with it".



After reading many bullying threads it does not seem like much has changed.

I was talking about the school using a systemic conflict resolution curriculum and discipline policy in the school, not what you described here. I said that if the school doesn't do something along these lines, it would be one of the FIRST things I would lobby and fundraise for as a parent. It's not acceptable not to teach kids how to handle really intense social interactions, and it's not acceptable for the staff to dismiss bullying problems. It especially works when you have older students helping as trained mediators.

IMO, teaching kids to violently fight back is one of the worst life lessons we could be teaching them. Why are we shouting for peace and diplomacy from the tops of our rooftops when it comes to societal affairs, but expecting our kids to live in a lord of the flies world? We need to be MUCH more proactive to teach citizens of this country that problems have solutions.

[kathymuggle]

No offense, altair - but from your siggy I gather you are a teacher - not (yet)a mother.

I absolutely agree we need to change society - society is broken with regards to how we handle agression, conflict, bullying.

However the changes you are talking about take years and committment. Children are only small for so long - and should not be asked or expected to handle teasing as we "figure out" how to get along.

I agree we should work to be changing school dynamics - and teachers should be the first in line working to change things. Yes, parents should too - but a parents primary responsability is to their child - not to "fixing the system".

Kathy

[momof4peppers]

It would be GREAT if our school could adopt a conflict-resolution program. However, as I'm finding out, they BEG volunteer parents to supervise lunch/recess and then don't train them in the least. So parent A is there to defend his/her child against parent B's child. Parent B is also there. So now the ADULTS are getting into the mix. And the money these parents are supposed to fundraise for to pay for this program? Guess what? In our school, we have "other priorities" - like fixing the gym floor and buying computers (!).

I'm praying that we move soon (please cross your fingers!) and it looks like that's what it's going to take to end this cycle (sadly).

[oceanbaby]

Dh's bullying happened at a small private school that had a "conflict resolution program." He learned early on that going to the adults/teachers only made his problems worse. His parents had conferences, there were discussions, and nothing changed. Most schools are not well staffed enough to deal with this kind of thing, even small schools. You basically have to have an adult watching the kids every second to be on top of a bullying situation. Dh begged his parents to let him change schools, and they wouldn't. I don't think they had, or even have now, any concept of how damaging those years were to him.

I don't teach my kids to be violent. But I would absolutely defend their right to defend themselves. If someone attacked me I would certainly fight back, and THEN I would go to the police. I wouldn't huddle down, and wait for an opportunity to get away to go tell someone just because "hitting is wrong."

[ginger_rodgers]

Originally Posted by Ruthla

Ginger- I think you hit the nail on the head. Compounding the problem is that he's very young for his grade (he just turned 7 in November) plus he missed a month of school due to pneumonia in October/November, and for another couple of weeks, he went to school late daily (as he needed more sleep while recovering) and missed even more Hebrew classes.

I'm just not sure what to do about it right now. I don't really want to move him out of a Jewish environment if I have other options, and I'm very hesitant to homeschool him. Between his temperment and my physical limitations, as well as the needs of my daughters (who are both homeschooled this year) I seriously doubt my ability to meet ANY of their needs if I have them all at home.

Yes, six weeks out means the rest of the class is on another planet wrt Hebrew. Ow. And the thing about pneumonia is that it can really leave your lungs vulnerable for a very long time. My adult friends and I who had pneumonia a few years ago still tend to go respiratory with every viral thing that comes along. It wouldn't be very strange if he missed again after catching something.

Is there anyone else in your community homeschooling who might be able to take him? It's less likely, of course, when you've already got a day school, but if he can work on his own without having it pounded into him daily that he has no idea what's going on in class, he might be able to catch up this spring/summer and reenter in fall.

One thing I'd avoid is having the rabbi take him for special catchup classes after school. The kid does need to play and I'd bet he'd feel like he's in prison.

Taking him out of his school...not to make things thornier, but I think this you'd also have to be careful about. My experience going from 5th day school to 6th public is that i was waaaaayyy behind on the English stuff. I was able to catch up, but really, when you've only got half a day, they do cut corners.

How about this, Ruthla: Can he go to the yeshiva for the English part of the day, and be homeschooled by a tutor for the Hebrew part? That'd take him out of the direct competition, he'd learn without the pressure, and he'd also have summer to catch up. He'd still have time to play, still get to see his friends in school. I don't know what transportation problems that'd cause for you, but maybe....

Anyway, let us know what the principal says.

As for taking him out in general....Hm. We're not Orthodox and don't keep kosher, so I don't have to do things like explain endlessly to other parents about what the kid can/can't eat & eat from during playdates, and we don't feel the pressure of a community defining "in" and "out". But I've been startled by the degree to which dd seems to perceive her world as Jewish & to which she identifies, esp. given that she's the only Jewish kid in her class, one of three in the whole school. This is definitely an outpost community, and we often have trouble getting a minyan Saturday mornings. Does not stop her from trying to teach her Icelandic classmate Hebrew words or instructing generally on the Exodus narrative. So if you did send your boy to public school, I think you might feel more pressure from within your community than from without. As far as food goes within school, I pack her lunch anyway, and given the amount of sugary junk they hand out all the time I think she'd be better off if there were some dietary restriction. (Of course, what I'm talking about can't replace the "whole world is Jewish" sense of staying within the community for school. On the other hand, there are certain advantages to going out, because of course the whole world is not Jewish.)

[Ruthla]

We'll see what the principal has to offer when I speak to him tomorrow. The school day is already too long for DS; there's no way I'd consent to tutoring AFTER school. I'm thinking they need to pull him out in the mornings and give him some 1:1 lessons while everybody else is also learning Hebrew.

Even if he can stay with the class for Hebrew, but be given different/easier homework assignments (say, instructions in English rather than in Hebrew, or skip all the bookwork and handouts the rest of the class does, and just have him focus on learning the vocabulary words of the week) that would probably be workable for him.

And I live in a town with a heavy Jewish population. The public schools are at least 30% Jewish, although most families who use the public schools aren't religious. There are, however, a handful of Orthodox families who've used the public school system, primarily for individual children with learning issues that the private school couldn't handle (while siblings continued to attend private school.)

[Ruthla]

OK, I met with the principal yesterday, and he included both the "student liason" (individual who works with all kids in the school, is aware of what they're learning, follows each student through all the grades, etc) and halfway through the meeting DS' Hebrew teacher was able to join us as well, as soon as she finished up the lesson they were in the middle of and she got somebody to cover the class. The principal wasn't even aware DS had been in any fights at school- I guess they have a system where only the worst fights get brought to the principal, and neither of the fights DS was involved in got to that point.

He's actually doing a lot better there than I thought. He's really NOT struggling in Hebrew as much as he was, and he's been capable of doing his homework (whatever wasn't completed at home) in class the next day, with very little prompting from the teacher. He does have days when he can't seem to focus on anything or complete writing tasks, but most of the time he's doing well. He's been making incredible progress this year.

So it seems that, when he got into a fight with another student about who gets to stand where in the line, they were arguing about who stands where in the line. It wasn't worsened by DS feeling frustrated and "stupid" in class all morning. The teacher is well aware of what's been happening in the classroom and has already been addressing it. They've had somebody (school psychologist maybe?) talking with the entire class about appropriate behavior, conflict resolution, etc. In the time between DS' last fight at school, and the first day available to talk to the school, the problem was already being addressed and hadn't repeated itself.

We also determined that the two days DS got into fights were days of lousy weather, towards the end of the winter, when everybody was tired of being stuck inside all day. They were able to have outside recess several days this week- but not at all when DS had these issues.

What was interesting was comparing what the teacher was telling me about DS' ability in Hebrew work with what I was seeing at home, and especially what I saw last night AFTER speaking with her. She was telling me how capable he is, how she sits him down and says things like "what do you think you need to do here?" and he's able to figure it out and do the work. So I was thinking maybe he was trying to "pull one over on me"- intentionally trying to avoid work because he can get away with that with me (since I can't really understand what the assignemts are- between my weak Hebrew knowledge and his bad handwriting, I often can't decipher his homework at all.)

So last night I told him "I don't think you can do this work, I know you can do it!" I kept him company but gave him space to work, helped him get a sharp pencil, etc, and encouraged him to work.

But he still couldn't remain focused throughout the whole page in the workbook. And this was the second time I sat with him to do work- the first time, he did his math work and then refused to even look at his Hebrew homework notebook! So I think there's something going on with him physically, where he's just not capable of these kinds of tasks so late in the day. His ability to focus on academics at 6:00 at night has very little bearing on his ability to focus on academics in the mornings. By nighttime he just needs to let off physical energy and rest his mind.

This school doesn't seem so "innapropriate for him" at this point, but I'm still a bit worried about homework requirements in 3rd grade. The student liason person wants to touch base with me in about 2 weeks, and I think I'll share my concerns with her then- if he can focus on classwork and learn, but is unable to do homework, will that impact him in 3rd grade at this school? Would a different school (where I could possibly have him repeat 2nd grade with less stigma, or at least a school with fewer homework requirements) be a better fit for him?

[mysticmomma]

I didn't get to read all the posts, but will in a few. I just wanted to suggest you tell the school to seat him in the office and call you before they speak to him. I really think he needs an advocate. You are his voice and should be there for these kinds of discussions.

[aniT]

If he can do the math but refuses to do the Hebrew, I would think that he just doens't like the Hebrew. My DD has ADD and can't focus on ANYTHING in the evenings. If she was able to do one subject but not the other I would think the subject was the problem. If it is understanding, or just plain dislike would be something I would need to figure out.

Maybe next time have him do his Hebrew first. Maybe work on it for 15 minute or so and even if he isn't done, move to math. If he can do the math after not doing the Hebrew, you know it's not a problem with focusing.

Good luck.

[IlluminatedAttic]

Could the Hebrew lessons be a way that he sees himself as different from the rest of his family? I mean from a 7 year old perspective this might be a daunting list - he is the only boy, the only one going outside the home to school, the only one without a Dad in his life (if I understand your previous post correctly) etc. Even if he fully understands the reasons behind these issues he still may see them negatively.

If your are homeschooling the girls are they taking some kind of Hebrew lessons? I assuming this would be from an outside source since you said your own knowledge of the language is at a lower level. If they are then perhaps one of them could help him with his work instead of you so that he felt a connection? Or if they aren't and this is another difference that he sees is there someone else, an uncle or Shabbat teacher, that could spend more time with him in a mentor sort of role and just happen to use more Hebrew with him as well? Could you incorporate more Hebrew into your family life in some ways? Movies or tv shows (even if you yourself don't understand everything maybe get recommendations from friends), board games that you play at least once a week as a family? Bedtime books or comic type books?

My thought on this is because I think about bilingual kids I have known that shunned a parent's native language because they felt it accentuated their differences from their peers. I know that is different in his case because his peers are learning Hebrew as well, but maybe the situation is reversed if his family is not as fluent in it?

[mammastar2]

He sounds tired!

If you do have the opportunity to try somewhere with less homework, or encourage the school to relook their homework load, that may be helpful - I know our board now has a great homework policy, and my second grade daughter will generally only have a math word problem, a recommendation to do some reading (of her choice), or working on a story (again of her choice). Nothing at all on the holidays, and plenty of days with nothing, either. Last year, she had more homework and was just more worn down and weepy. Her academics are also actually stronger this year, as there's less busy work. I've seen a real difference!

I was surprised that the principal would not be aware of fights going on. Even if children don't physically get 'sent to the principal' after an altercation, it doesn't speak well of the principal's awareness level, communication among staff, and so on. You may want to ask more about what the communication policies are.

What do they do on days when they can't have outdoor recess? Is there a way for them to let off steam indoors? Gym time? Silly dancing in class?