breech turning help, poss. vaginal breech-friendly doc in NNJ? - Page 2

[jenmidwife2b]

Any update Amanda?

[Amandala]

Well, that's it I guess.

I just came back from the OB who was to try to do the version.

He checked everything out, and said there was nothing he could do.
The kid will NOT budge; he's sitting on his feet; big head; low amniotic fluid; cord is all over the damn place including, they're almost 100% sure, around the baby's neck. When a midwife tried to get him to turn this weekend, his heartbeat started to drop, and they had to stop. (It recovered immediately)

It's like a quadruple whammy, huh?

I'm 2 cm and 80% effaced already. They called my midwife and together they told us I should come home and sleep and go to the hospital in the morning.

Thanks, everyone, for your suggestions and advice and for time and energy spent cogitating on the matter for me.

[WuWei]

Take probiotics NOW! And arnica montana 200c before and after surgery. Take probiotics twice a day for a minimum of four weeks. Whole food probiotics are best: kefir, kombucha, yogurt (with active live cultures), fermented vegetables: Bubbies dill pickles and sauerkraut. Avoid dairy, otherwise. Get some Natural Calm for mamas, it will help healing. Eat coconut oil for killing off the candida which comes with the antibiotics they'll give you.

It is ok for the heartrate to drop with laboring. It is ok for the cord to be around the baby's neck. Totally normal. Those are not worthy of interventions. But, any OB will do a section. Take zinc, vit C for healing.

Hope all goes well.


Pat

[avendesora]

I went to Dr. Bagnell just for basic prenatal chiropractic care, and I thought he was fine. I know he has a technique for flipping babies.

Aven

[mama24-7]

Originally Posted by Amandala

I just came back from the OB who was to try to do the version.

He checked everything out, and said there was nothing he could do.
The kid will NOT budge; he's sitting on his feet; big head; low amniotic fluid; cord is all over the damn place including, they're almost 100% sure, around the baby's neck. When a midwife tried to get him to turn this weekend, his heartbeat started to drop, and they had to stop. (It recovered immediately)

It's like a quadruple whammy, huh?

I'm 2 cm and 80% effaced already. They called my midwife and together they told us I should come home and sleep and go to the hospital in the morning.

Thanks, everyone, for your suggestions and advice and for time and energy spent cogitating on the matter for me.

Wow, that sounds like an appt. that ended different from what you expected.

What about waiting until you go into labor so the baby tells you he's ready, rather than someone deciding it's time for him to come out? Was this a part of the discussion?

Sus

[Amandala]

I dunno, I just don't foresee myself getting any less worked up about it between now and then. I think I'd rather spend one day crying in bed, then proceed there in a calm fashion, than spend two or three or four days crying in bed, knowing I'm going to have to get up and rush there with very short notice at some point.

My nerves can't handle any more of this. Everyone says once it's all over with I'll be able to look back at it and be able to put it behind me, but I have to spend the meantime thinking forward to being operated on while I'm awake, which I really think is the most horrifying thing I can imagine right now.

[Taryn237]

Originally Posted by Amandala

I dunno, I just don't foresee myself getting any less worked up about it between now and then. I think I'd rather spend one day crying in bed, then proceed there in a calm fashion, than spend two or three or four days crying in bed, knowing I'm going to have to get up and rush there with very short notice at some point.

My nerves can't handle any more of this. Everyone says once it's all over with I'll be able to look back at it and be able to put it behind me, but I have to spend the meantime thinking forward to being operated on while I'm awake, which I really think is the most horrifying thing I can imagine right now.

Good luck mama. I'm so sorry this is happening. I know this is far from your ideal birth but just try to make it the best it can be. Here's a link to a good birth plan with a section for a cesarean birth: http://romancathanachronism.typepad....irth-plan.html

[WuWei]

It will be ok, mama.


Pat

[dlm194]

Originally Posted by Amandala

My nerves can't handle any more of this. Everyone says once it's all over with I'll be able to look back at it and be able to put it behind me, but I have to spend the meantime thinking forward to being operated on while I'm awake, which I really think is the most horrifying thing I can imagine right now.

Please, please don’t put that kind of pressure on yourself!! People really mean well and they want to be helpful by telling you that it won’t matter how your baby gets here or that “all that matters is a healthy baby.” This isn’t the birth that you want and it’s okay to mourn that. Even a medical necessity for a c-section doesn’t mean that you cannot feel sadness over the birth experience that you lost. I tell this to women a lot: if it rained on your wedding day, no one would fault you for being sad about that or tell you that it doesn’t matter because the important thing is that you are married. People understand how special a wedding day is and how hard a bride works to make it a perfect and special day. For some reason, we don’t treat birth the same way. We have this myth pounded into us that women and children used to die all the time in childbirth so we should just be grateful to get out of it alive. There is nothing wrong with feeling sadness or disappointment over the way that your birth happened while simultaneously feeling incredible joy about welcoming your child into this world.

I am sure your midwife can come into the OR with you. Ask her to tell you what is happening so you can feel involved with your birth. Also ask her to take lots of pictures for you so that you will have another view of your birth and what happened. Part of my sadness about my c-section was being disconnected from the process. I had a midwife who could have made it a much better experience (of course she also could have waited for me to dilate rather than shipping me off to surgery because she was tired of hanging around for me but that’s another story!!)

I hope everything goes well for you!! Hang in there mama.

[GoGoGirl]

Oh I'm so sorry Amandala

I might end up being in your position too. I'm 36 weeks, so there's some time for the baby to turn, but I'm trying to emotionally prepare for what will happen if the baby is still breech at the end.

I'm really upset about possibly needing a c-section. I'm terrified of surgery, but also grieving the possibility of losing my home birth. I feel kind of alone in my distress, like the people in my life don't really see why it's such a big deal to me. I guess that's why I'm so happy I found MDC! In any case, I'll be thinking of you and sending you lots of healing (physical and emotional) vibes.

I'm thinking of seeing a therapist if I do end up getting a c-section. (Both ahead of time, to try to help myself come to terms with it, and afterward, to process how I'm feeling about it.) I found a few therapists who specialize in pregnancy, labor, and postpartum issues in the Choices in Childbirth NY Guide to a Healthy Birth. You can look at it here if you're interested. I know that some of the therapists will come to your home for a session (so you don't have to worry about making it to their office while healing from surgery and taking care of a newborn). I don't know if they'll come to NJ, but it's worth looking into if you think it might help you.

[dewi]

Amanda,

dlm194 is brilliant, these are truly wise sage words to live by.
Thanks NJ ICAN dlm194

"I tell this to women a lot: if it rained on your wedding day, no one would fault you for being sad about that or tell you that it doesn’t matter because the important thing is that you are married. People understand how special a wedding day is and how hard a bride works to make it a perfect and special day. For some reason, we don’t treat birth the same way. "




go go girl.
I hope you found Ellen Chuse # in the healthy guide, she is a such a good birth counselor, having her care and support will make a difference dealing with you're feelings.

[meganmarie]

Amanda,
Just wanted to say I am so sorry things didn't turn out the way you hoped. I don't fault you for wanting to get it over with, I feel the same way about surgery and can understand not wanting to think about it too much. I know how hard you worked and researched - you had a vision of welcoming your baby in a beautiful waterbirth and this must seem like the farthest thing from it. I hope that you are already snuggling your baby and its all over. I think dlm is very wise to remind you that you have permission to mourn - but I hope that you also find peace with everything that has happened.

You know that this is NOT a failure of your body to birth vaginally - good news for possible VBAC, if that's on your mind, and also for your own inner peace. Its just one of those flukey things that happens.

In a way, you could look at this as your baby, even before (s)he comes into the world, asserting an individual personality. I'll take this moment to say, welcome to motherhood! This is only the first time, but not the the last, that your child will not do what you expect, what you hope, or what you request! In fact, I can imagine a child with this beginning carving a totally unique path in life - not the easiest road, not the road most travelled - but choosing firmly and sticking to the choices (s)he makes. I wish you joy in meeting your baby and in the rest of the days you'll spend being surprised and changed.

[mom2Jordan]

Hi Amanda,

I am so sorry things had to go this way for you. I hope you and the baby are ok and recovering well.
I want to ask a "stupid" question of the responders to this thread at this point: why won't anyone do a breech vaginal birth in the hospital? Aren't there any "crunchier" providers who would be willing?
This thread made me quite scared and upset... for Amanda and anyone else going through this. I know that birth can be a process that we can't ultimately control and plan even if we did everything to make it happen naturally, but why this flat-out refusal to not do a vaginal breech? I am planning on VBAC'ing with Pam and Louise and am wondering if they'd be willing to do it...I will ask at my appt tomorrow.

[paquerette]

Amanda. I'm sorry that things did not work out better.

It seems like it's even harder to get a breech vaginal birth than a VBAC. I wonder if part of it is because there are certain breech positions which are generally incompatible with safe vaginal birth, and it can be hard to be sure whether the baby is in one of those positions, baby can move in between u/s and birth time, not everyone is skilled at palpating to determine exact position at the moment. But it's a shame because there are some positions which are very compatible with breech vaginal birth, every bit as safe as head down.

[Taryn237]

Originally Posted by mom2Jordan

Hi Amanda,

I am so sorry things had to go this way for you. I hope you and the baby are ok and recovering well.
I want to ask a "stupid" question of the responders to this thread at this point: why won't anyone do a breech vaginal birth in the hospital? Aren't there any "crunchier" providers who would be willing?
This thread made me quite scared and upset... for Amanda and anyone else going through this. I know that birth can be a process that we can't ultimately control and plan even if we did everything to make it happen naturally, but why this flat-out refusal to not do a vaginal breech? I am planning on VBAC'ing with Pam and Louise and am wondering if they'd be willing to do it...I will ask at my appt tomorrow.

They won't do breech VBACs. I asked too. Pam told me that if my baby ended up being breech (Thank God she wasn't) my only option was The Farm and they wouldn't take me with a single layer suture anyway. Not sure for a breech in a good position, like a frank breech on someone with a prior vaginal birth. Maybe Dr. Burbella would... They had a VBAC last month who was a double footling breech and wouldn't consent to the c/s (very small mom, big baby, bag of water and feet protruding, cord around the neck, the whole nine yards). Eventually the parents did consent but P & L were pretty upset because it was a dangerous situation and they were worried for the mom and baby. I said to Pam that if it was me and the baby was in breech but in a different position I don't know if I would consent either. Its a hard call. She did say that they had a surprise breech homebirth once.

[jenmidwife2b]

Licensed homebirth midwives in NJ are not allowed to do breeches. They can lose their license if they do. I believe it is the same for NY...someone correct me if I am wrong. Those who are not licensed are often afraid of litigation in any event because if you are attending a breech birth and anything goes wrong, the provider will be blamed for not transporting/agreeing to do a breech birth. Breech is unfortunately not seen as a variation of normal like it once was and many providers are never trained in how to handle breeches.

It is not the case here in PA (we are not licensed so don't have to fear losing it), so if one wanted to have a vaginal breech birth and was willing to travel to PA to have that birth it is a possibility with a homebirth midwife who is not a CNM (again, CNM's can lose their license if they attend breeches at home knowingly).

There are certain criteria that must be met and the mother and father have to be fully aware of the risks and benefits of a vaginal breech birth. Baby can't be stargazing (head must be tucked), there should be lots of cord (don't want the cord to be too short and end up with a problem of baby not descending), and ideally the baby would be a complete or frank breech (footling breeches are more problematic, particularly in primips, but anyone who has seen Psalm and Zoya knows that that is not always the case, and if you look at the homebirth mutiny site [google it] from the homebirth midwife in Australia you'll find tons of good breech info), and ideally the mother has had a vaginal birth before (though again, there is debate about this).

[dlm194]

Thanks dewi ~ this is obviously something I am very passionate about! It's hard because some women really don't care about their birth experience. But many do and our feelings should not be voided because other women think going in for surgery is a fabulous option (I know I'm preaching to the choir here!). Of course many women go through awful drugged up vaginal births so they believe that c-sections are easier, better etc. Our society is way too desensitized to this.

Mom2Jordan ~ Taryn is right. Pam and Louise do not do breech deliveries. I think it's less about "them" and more about what they are allowed to do via their back up doctor and hospital. If I remember correctly (I could listen to Pam tell birth stories all day!) even back when they did attend breech deliveries, a doctor had to be present. Their back up doctor might be willing to attend a breech delivery but probably not in a first time vaginal birth. It's not a hopeless situation if your baby is breech though. There are some doctors and homebirth midwives in the area who might be willing to attend you. In the regular birth forum, someone with a breech baby mentioned that The Farm will no longer do breech deliveries in a first time vaginal birth (just like they won't attend single layer suture VBACs). The poster did mention that they have a list of homebirth breech-friendly midwives though.

If you live not far from Pam and Louise's office, I would highly recommend Louise's chiropractor - Dr Glenn Gabi (sp?). He is wonderful! Also the Bagnells that were previously mentioned in this thread practice down in Langhorne PA (where Sesame Place is). As much as possible, you really want to keep that baby head down!

[jenmidwife2b]

The farm is no longer doing first time vaginal breeches? That's really a shame. But then, so is their single layer policy, which is not evidence based.

[Catwmandu]

I've been following this thread religiously.

Amanda, I'm thinking about you.

My daughter was breech and although the 2nd version worked (nothing else did) I ended with a c-section anyway. I am now PG with number 2 coming via VBAC in Aug / Sept... and know that I am at risk for repeat breech. So following this thread. Even had a dream of walking into hospital pushing last week.

[dlm194]

Good point Jen - there are a number of births that are illegal for licensed homebirth midwives in NJ to attend: hbacs, breeches, before 37 weeks or after 42 weeks, twins, babies that are measure very large, etc.

Originally Posted by jenmidwife2b

The farm is no longer doing first time vaginal breeches? That's really a shame. But then, so is their single layer policy, which is not evidence based.

That's what the poster was saying in this thread: http://www.mothering.com/discussions....php?t=1038454