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ABC 20/20 A Hidden America Children of the Mountains - Page 5

post #81 of 96
Oh, yes - good point that not all of Appalachia is like this. We have our spectrum of wealth. Our houses with vaulted ceilings, our doctors and lawyers and even our Rockefellers. None of it really resembles much of my life growing up, IMO... but then I wonder if some of you, if you were able to see video footage of my childhood, wouldn't think that it was appalling and heart-breaking. We were certainly poor.

And about rural people being less-educated that people in cities, do you mean inner cities? I'm thinking that those children are being failed in much the same way. I mention this because it shows the ideas that we hold about places... when one person thinks "NYC" they think about Manhattan, huge lofts, etc. Another person might think about underserved populations of children growing up in neighborhoods where gangs are prevalent, literacy is down, drug use is rampant, and survival is more important than getting an A on a test.

And the problem is not that it's a rural area, really. I think that rural living can be very fulfilling and healthy. Even in very isolated areas. Rural living is, to me, the ideal! There are other things on top of the isolation that is inherent in rural living (and exploitation by people who are profiting from the area is one of them).

One thing about the pull yourselves up by your bootstraps idea is that it is rather flip. There are many, many people who would see a person who was suffering from clinical depression, and they would say: Cheer up and get over it. And they'd find it difficult to understand why that person chose to stay miserable. My uncle, when his wife told him she felt like she didn't know who she was, that she needed to find herself, said, "There you are. Now you're found." And he SERIOUSLY thought that he was being reasonable in that response. But obviously he was missing a lot, and it bordered on obtuse.

There IS a level of defeatism that permeates the area. I do not ever deny that, and it can be very frustrating. A lot don't try, because trying is pointless in their understanding. And saying "get over it and make it happen for you!" is analogous to telling a person who was depressed to quit being sad. On a fundamental level, yes, that is what needs to happen. But goal-setting isn't something that is even possible for them, they haven't learned to do it. A lot of us do it naturally, not realizing that at some point, it was modeled for us, explained to us, whatever. I think that for some people in these situations, goal-setting is a luxury... their only goal is surviving one day to the next, and getting whatever pleasure/comfort they can along the way, even if that is just a Mountain Dew.

Working as a mentor for rural families, one of the things we spent almost all our time on was learning to set goals, to even figure out what is wanted from life. That right there is HUGE. Because without that, you live a default life, taking whatever work comes your way, doing what people around you are doing, doing what it seems is your "lot in life." And then to begin to work to show that these goals might be POSSIBLE, that there are steps that they can take, and to see barriers as something to work around and not "Oh, see, I knew this was for Other People." It is hard. It is so difficult, and this is working one-on-one with families who have sought you out to help them towards self-sufficiency (independent, off TANF, secure). They've already overcome the first barrier of "this is how it has to be because this is how it IS" (which is the downside of the intense pragmatism of the area) and it is still not an overnight shift to "I can do anything! The world is my oyster!" It's a process.

My issue with the woman who got her GED is that ... she worked SO HARD once she had that goal, she worked and pushed to accomplish it. Once she committed, she was on it. Hopefully that will help her to see that she can set and achieve other goals... but because that goal was told to her by someone else, and externally motivated (I think mandated?) it's not the same as having the skill of saying, "what do I want?" and then "How can I get there?" I hope that she gets the support that she needs to do just that. AND more importantly, IMO, I hope her daughters take what she's accomplished and learned, and build on it in their own lives.
post #82 of 96
For those that are saying that the same problems exist in the inner city or in other parts of the country....keep in mind that Diane Sawyer/ABC did nearly the exact same program a year or two ago, but focusing on a few inner city families, i want to say it was in NJ, but not sure. They showed a single father raising a bunch of kids, the children didnt even have beds to sleep on, one of the teen boys was trying so hard but in the end got his girlfriend pg and i *think* ended up dropping out of school (but not sure), instead of walking really far to get a GED, he rode a bus to some crap fast food job, til late in the night, trying hard to balance his school work with providing some money to his dad to help feed his sibs (Extreme Home Makeover later on built this family a new home); they focused on several school kids, i think showing them when they were first graders and then again a few years later as jaded older kids;they showed the teachers struggling to help these kids. They showed kids who had alcoholic or drug addicted parents, kids who were victims of incest. Kids who had parents in prison.

I think this was ABC's attempt to show the "other" america, we think "poor = inner city" but they wanted to show the "forgotten" America. Was it sensationalistic journalism? Of course. Its TV. Thats part of the whole ratings machine. But i doubt Diane Sawyer, who said she grew up in KY, had as a goal to embarrass or stereotype the people she was profiling.


Katherine
post #83 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by queenjane View Post
For those that are saying that the same problems exist in the inner city or in other parts of the country....keep in mind that Diane Sawyer/ABC did nearly the exact same program a year or two ago, but focusing on a few inner city families, i want to say it was in NJ, but not sure. They showed a single father raising a bunch of kids, the children didnt even have beds to sleep on, one of the teen boys was trying so hard but in the end got his girlfriend pg and i *think* ended up dropping out of school (but not sure), instead of walking really far to get a GED, he rode a bus to some crap fast food job, til late in the night, trying hard to balance his school work with providing some money to his dad to help feed his sibs (Extreme Home Makeover later on built this family a new home); they focused on several school kids, i think showing them when they were first graders and then again a few years later as jaded older kids;they showed the teachers struggling to help these kids. They showed kids who had alcoholic or drug addicted parents, kids who were victims of incest. Kids who had parents in prison.

I think this was ABC's attempt to show the "other" america, we think "poor = inner city" but they wanted to show the "forgotten" America. Was it sensationalistic journalism? Of course. Its TV. Thats part of the whole ratings machine. But i doubt Diane Sawyer, who said she grew up in KY, had as a goal to embarrass or stereotype the people she was profiling.
It was NJ, and I heard it was a fabulous piece. I didn't get to see it, but will probably try to catch it online if I can.

The reason I brought up the inner city at all was because someone had mentioned that people in rural areas tend to be less well-educated than people in cities, and to say, "People in cities are more well-educated than people in Appalachia" is certainly not true, on it's face. I know that the person that said that wasn't meaning it in any kind of offensive way, and I didn't take it that way. I just wanted to mention it since to some, it might cement their preconceived ideas that people in cities really are smarter than country folk -- and possibly cleaner, more moral, and just overall better. (I like to think that MDC is freer of these kinds of prejudices, but no place is immune. No person is immune.)
post #84 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by Collinsky View Post
It was NJ, and I heard it was a fabulous piece. I didn't get to see it, but will probably try to catch it online if I can.

The reason I brought up the inner city at all was because someone had mentioned that people in rural areas tend to be less well-educated than people in cities, and to say, "People in cities are more well-educated than people in Appalachia" is certainly not true, on it's face. I know that the person that said that wasn't meaning it in any kind of offensive way, and I didn't take it that way. I just wanted to mention it since to some, it might cement their preconceived ideas that people in cities really are smarter than country folk -- and possibly cleaner, more moral, and just overall better. (I like to think that MDC is freer of these kinds of prejudices, but no place is immune. No person is immune.)
I'm the one who made the comment, and I didn't mean at all that people in cities are SMARTER than people in the country. But several posters on this thread have talked about their personal experience, and I shared the experiences of some of my friends. If there aren't well-paying jobs for college-educated people in rural areas, then by default, many college-educated folks end up settling in more urban areas where there are better paying jobs. This leaves those with less education, those who are willing to work for lower wages, left behind in the rural areas.

I live in the midwest, so I'm more familiar with studies that have been done here. But I've seen numerous articles that talk about the "brain drain" (using this actual phrase) that tends takes the best educated young people from small towns and transplant them to bigger cities where there are greater opportunities. My intent was not to disparage rural areas in general or Appalachia in particular, but to continue the conversation. I personally don't believe that it's the government's job to provide jobs in any one particular area. That said, the question becomes, what can be done to attract well-educated Appalachian natives back to Appalachia? What steps should be taken to attract businesses and industry to the area? Tax breaks? Special incentives for new businesses? Other than drawing more businesses to the area, what else can be done to try and break the cycle of poverty?

BTW- I want to second the recommendation for the PBS special Country Boys. It came out several years ago, but touched on many of the same issues and I think it was far less sensational than Children of the Mountain. Country Boys followed 2 teenage boys growing up in poverty in Appalachia. It devoted a lot of time to telling of their strugges at home, at school, and in their social/personal lives. I liked that it wasn't a quick snapshot, but followed the boys over the course of a couple of years. You can watch the full program online on the PBS website:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/countryboys/
post #85 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by annethcz View Post
I'm the one who made the comment, and I didn't mean at all that people in cities are SMARTER than people in the country. But several posters on this thread have talked about their personal experience, and I shared the experiences of some of my friends. If there aren't well-paying jobs for college-educated people in rural areas, then by default, many college-educated folks end up settling in more urban areas where there are better paying jobs. This leaves those with less education, those who are willing to work for lower wages, left behind in the rural areas.

I live in the midwest, so I'm more familiar with studies that have been done here. But I've seen numerous articles that talk about the "brain drain" (using this actual phrase) that tends takes the best educated young people from small towns and transplant them to bigger cities where there are greater opportunities. My intent was not to disparage rural areas in general or Appalachia in particular, but to continue the conversation. I personally don't believe that it's the government's job to provide jobs in any one particular area. That said, the question becomes, what can be done to attract well-educated Appalachian natives back to Appalachia? What steps should be taken to attract businesses and industry to the area? Tax breaks? Special incentives for new businesses? Other than drawing more businesses to the area, what else can be done to try and break the cycle of poverty?

BTW- I want to second the recommendation for the PBS special Country Boys. It came out several years ago, but touched on many of the same issues and I think it was far less sensational than Children of the Mountain. Country Boys followed 2 teenage boys growing up in poverty in Appalachia. It devoted a lot of time to telling of their strugges at home, at school, and in their social/personal lives. I liked that it wasn't a quick snapshot, but followed the boys over the course of a couple of years. You can watch the full program online on the PBS website:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/countryboys/
I knew that you weren't meaning anything offensive - like I said, I just wanted to be sure that no one else would think that. And it is true, about the brain drain effect... the higher the education, the more likely it is that one will leave a rural, isolated, economically-challenged area for one with more opportunities and resources.

I don't know what can be done, honestly, on a large scale. One year a politician came to speak at our college (I went to university in WV as well) and he went on and on about all the jobs he was bringing to the state. An undergrad stood up and asked him, "What jobs are you creating that will keep ME here?" and there was no real answer. The jobs that are "created" are factory jobs, for businesses that are based in other states. And Wal-Mart. Let's not forget that. Those things make me feel that tax incentives are actually a negative thing, because those are the types of businesses that benefit.

Here is a site that is really useful for theAppalachian Regional Commission ... one good read IMO is this article which I think offers some viable ideas. I think the main thing, the most important thing, is to look at the area's strengths, and base economic plans on building on that, rather than trying to duplicate another region in the hills of WV, KY, etc.


Thanks for the link, I haven't seen Country Boys and I'll have to check it out!!
post #86 of 96
Country Boys was better at providing a more comprehensive view; then again, it was an actual series and not just an hour-long glimpse. An interesting film is "Stranger With a Camera," a documentary on an Appalachian landowner who shoots & kills a Canadian filmmaker who came to "film the people of Appalachia."
post #87 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freeman View Post
Country Boys was better at providing a more comprehensive view; then again, it was an actual series and not just an hour-long glimpse. An interesting film is "Stranger With a Camera," a documentary on an Appalachian landowner who shoots & kills a Canadian filmmaker who came to "film the people of Appalachia."
I did think that Diane Sawyer did a great job covering a lot in just that hour, and that it needed at least another hour to be complete.

I haven't heard the other one!
post #88 of 96
Quote:
If there aren't well-paying jobs for college-educated people in rural areas, then by default, many college-educated folks end up settling in more urban areas where there are better paying jobs. This leaves those with less education, those who are willing to work for lower wages, left behind in the rural areas.
Yes, my husband is willing to work for lower wages ... the benefits of living in a rural area outweigh the benefits of a higher paying job in the city, in our opinion. We recently bought a new house (built last year), it sits on a lake and comes with an acre of land. This is the setting I want to raise my children in. They can walk out our back door and see deer, ducks, turtles, birds, etc. at any given time. They can pick apples fresh from the tree, and will get to grow their own flowers and food during the Spring. If we choose, we can take weekly trips to the zoo, or museum so they are not missing out on that aspect of living in a major city. This does not mean we are less educated than our friends who moved to NYC. We just have different goals in life.


Quote:
but then I wonder if some of you, if you were able to see video footage of my childhood, wouldn't think that it was appalling and heart-breaking. We were certainly poor.
Oh yes, growing up I was one of these "mountain children". I lived with my grandmother and grandfather on a farm in the middle of nowhere. Our driveway was a dirt "holler" that was 2 miles long.. during the winter we were totally snowed in. One year a flood washed away our bridge, and they could not afford to replace it so we walked across a tree to get to the other side of the creek, and of course, we had to walk the next 1.5 miles to get to our house. Yes, I had baby bottle teeth from getting soda in my bottle, we were extremely poor, I'm sure I was filthy (from playing outside & probably from not bathing daily also), but I absolutely LOVED my childhood. I only have wonderful memories of living there.
This is the dirt road I lived on:
http://i41.tinypic.com/vy4o49.gif
post #89 of 96
Hello fellow WV'ians and former WV'ians.

This has been so interesting to read through. I guess I would consider myself to be living on the "outskirts" of Appalachia now, but all of my extended family lives in the heart of Appalachia. Most of my male relatives are/were coal miners.

I can understand how hard it would be for people who've never been there to really "get it", just how hard the day to day really is for a lot fo people down there. It still shocks me and I've lived here nearly all my life.
post #90 of 96
I would just like to point out something to the minor dental debate taking place here: Is anyone truly aware of just how difficult it is to obtain gainful employment for OVER minimum wage with a mouthful or rotten and/or missing teeth?

My husband does. And he's from suburban WNY, just from a family that didn't think dental care was important. We may not like it, but the fact remains that appearances DO play a role in daily life. I can't tell you how many jobs he's "aced" phone interviews for, if only to have an in-person interview and watch the manager or owner do a double take and stare directly into his mouth. And then, POOF, never to be heard from again. If one is attempting to get a job paying more than minimum wage, its incredibly difficult to do with that strike against you.


And as far as "pulling oneself up by their bootstraps", I'd really like to see people who say this physically do it. I didn't grow up in Appalachia, but in a rural town in northern PA that looks remarkably similar. And we weren't in poverty, but my parents made sure we felt it on occasion to give us a realistic idea.

I have walked to work, 13 miles each way. At 17 years old. I have gotten up at 3 am to walk to school, and then walk home to arrive at 6 pm. It isn't that easy. It's exhausting. And at the time, I didn't have children to find supervision for.

And when the best job you can find only pays $5.15 an hour, how are you to afford a car? Let's add 2 kids into that mix. On those wages, you can't cover basic neccessities, let alone a car to get a better job, or dental care to get a better job, or better clothes to get a better job.

For each step forward you take in trying to crawl your way out of poverty, you are met with 5 more shoves, slaps and kicks backwards. You meet roadblock after roadblock. Yes, eventually you run out of obstacles to run through, but imagine, just for one day, that every step you took was weighted with 50 lb blocks attached to each foot. And then after walking about getting used to that, you have to climb stairs, with those 50 lb blocks. And after you got used to that, you have to jump hurdles. That's what it's like trying to get out of deep, systemic, generational poverty. It isn't as easy as "just get a job and work hard and you'll be fine".

Sorry, I tend to rant about this a little bit.
post #91 of 96
I understand it is SO hard to get past societies bigoted backwards tooth ideas, however if society at large was not so shallow and wasn't living in total ignorance and denial about how toxic dental restorations (like root canals, implants, mercury, BPA, etc.) are for your health overall, we wouldn't have this problem, that's all I am sayin.

For your general and economic health, extractions are the best and it is too bad we are constrained by society to accept toxins in our bodies in order to front on some phony appearance because the FOM is, as adults sometimes we lose teeth.

I myself am a big fan of dentures rather than root canals and implants, personally . . .
post #92 of 96
This really isn't the place for a debate about dental health. We have a dental health forum, if you'd like to start a new thread there.
post #93 of 96
I live in NC and I know a ton of people who put soda in their baby's bottle. My cousin, who is my age, had a horrible case of bottle rot because her mom would give her bottles full of tea and coke starting when she was 6-7 months old. It is common for people to give watered down coke (or around here SunDrop) in the bottles. They think that watering it down makes it better for babies.
post #94 of 96
I know this is an old thread, but I just read through it start to finish and I am saddened by how many people believe the poverty is a lack of will power. The sad reality of capitalism is that someone always has to be on the bottom - companies need employees that are willing to work for not much pay in order for the company itself to be profitable. There are not enough high paying, full benefit jobs for everyone to live the American dream, esepcially when even those high paying jobs are now moving overseas.

I think it would be more helpful to feel compassion towards people who have so many obstacles to overcome, especially when it comes to leaving your family and friends. That's not an easy choice for everyone.

The number of people who abuse welfare and don't want change is a lot smaller than you think. It is more peaceful to err on the side of "trying" than to automatically assume someone is "not trying."
post #95 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by alisaterry View Post
I know this is an old thread, but I just read through it start to finish and I am saddened by how many people believe the poverty is a lack of will power. The sad reality of capitalism is that someone always has to be on the bottom - companies need employees that are willing to work for not much pay in order for the company itself to be profitable. There are not enough high paying, full benefit jobs for everyone to live the American dream, esepcially when even those high paying jobs are now moving overseas.

I think it would be more helpful to feel compassion towards people who have so many obstacles to overcome, especially when it comes to leaving your family and friends. That's not an easy choice for everyone.

The number of people who abuse welfare and don't want change is a lot smaller than you think. It is more peaceful to err on the side of "trying" than to automatically assume someone is "not trying."
post #96 of 96
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Edited by StoriesInTheSoil - 3/5/12 at 9:16am
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