Why does it seem that have to time everything??

[KalamazooMom]

So my DD is in 3rd grade this year and it seems like more and more they have tests that are timed. What is the point of that? They started typing tests, and have to type a certain number of words per minutes. This is THIRD grade for gods sake! Now they're doing multiplication and they have to do a certain number in a minute and a half. Is this just my kids school or are other people running into this? Maybe it's an NCLB thing?

My DD just seems to feel so pressured by these things. She's a good student and a hard worker but she just not fast at these things.

[MsElle07]

It's totally a NCLB thing. Standardized tests are timed, and kids have to get used to working under a time deadline. Unfortunately.

[KalamazooMom]

Still I don't get it?? At this age shouldn't the focus be on learning skills and gaining confidence, etc. How did the concept of timed tests like this get into NCLB? I know they can't take all day for things, but there has to be some more reasonable standard.

[MattBronsil]

Yup. NCLB. Raise the issue at school board meetings then write to your senators. (Honestly...that's how it will change in time)

[MsElle07]

Originally Posted by MattBronsil

Yup. NCLB. Raise the issue at school board meetings then write to your senators. (Honestly...that's how it will change in time)

:

[momtokea]

Originally Posted by KalamazooMom

Still I don't get it?? At this age shouldn't the focus be on learning skills and gaining confidence, etc. How did the concept of timed tests like this get into NCLB? I know they can't take all day for things, but there has to be some more reasonable standard.

Yes, and there are a lot of teachers that disagree with it but have no choice. They have to do it.

[MsElle07]

Originally Posted by momtokea

Yes, and there are a lot of teachers that disagree with it but have no choice. They have to do it.

We have no choice whatsoever. We have to sign legally binding documents stating that we will adhere to the policies set forth by the State Dept of Ed. People can and do get fired for not adhering to the rules.

I hate it. Write to your senators and reps in Congress, that is the ONLY way it will get changed. Your state legislatures are just adhering to the federal law. If the federal law changes, then the states can change.

[Emmeline II]

How are their hands even large enough to do that well?

[fadedgirl]

Is there no organized website or movement to get the NCLB revoked? I checked and cannot seem to find anything. How can THAT be? Hopefully I'm missing it all. Please post the links if anyone knows. Thanks!

[fadedgirl]

OK, I found one:

http://www.educatorroundtable.org/

and if you just want to sign the petition (online) and not read the site, go here:

http://www.PetitionOnline.com/1teach...ion-sign.html?

[fadedgirl]

Originally Posted by momtokea

Yes, and there are a lot of teachers that disagree with it but have no choice. They have to do it.

This is yet one more thing driving students, and teachers, out of the public school system and into the private schools which aren't required to participate in the NCLB madness.

[Ceili]

It maybe part of NCLB, but we had timed multiplication tests in my 3rd grade class back in 1982, well before NCLB.

[Leatherette]

I'm not sure it's about NCLB either (although I'd love to pin anything negative on it!). It is about fluency, and fluency with math facts does help kids with higher-order math. Unfortunately, there are kids out there with processing issues that just reach their ceiling and can't go any faster, and they are still smart and successful. We are expecting all kids to be great at everything these days.

Typing tests are usually timed. If kids have too much time, they hunt and peck. I am not saying I support timed typing tests for third graders, but it could be to avoid bad keyboarding habits.

If it is bothering your daughter a lot, maybe her teacher could not time her, or at least not keep her from moving on until she reaches a certain speed. Sometimes that is done with math facts. They keep giving the kid the same worksheet/level until they reach the desired fluency.

On the flip side, practicing fluency will increase speed to a certain degree. When I work with kids on fluency ( I work with kids with learning disabilities), I try to teach them to focus on beating their own top speed, not competing with each other. But that is more easily done in my room, where everyone is working on different things....

Hope all goes well,
L.

[teachnj]

I teach 4th grade and our math program does use timed tests for multiplication. If kids practice their facts they certainly can do it in a given amount of time. We do 50 problems in 4 minutes (the program says they should be able to do it in 3, but I give them the extra minute) I've had kids go from 4% to 100% when they actually go home and practice the facts. Knowing the basic facts gives them a big advantage when we move on to more advanced concepts.

[LVale]

I had timed tests, well before NCLB, in elementary school clear through high school and this was from 1966-1976. No it is not a new thing at all.

[CarrieMF]

We don't have NCLB in Canada.

We had timed multiplication tests in elementary school. They have them now too. Times mulitplication tests does improve how they memorize those facts, they are things that NEED to be memorized.

We test kids in sight words, they have 3 seconds to get it & then we move on. Then we play games with them & by the end of our testing(4-5 weeks) we have very few kids in the sight words blitz becuase they've improved. It helps their reading to know those words on sight.

typing skills, not sure if it's necessary at this point for anythign other than the standardized tests, they can get the test done faster if they can type fast. Do you know how many wpm they're supposed to get?

It is a skill that will come in handy later in life, but it isn't like a language where the earlier you start the better you become. However they may not have time later to teach typing.

[eepster]

Originally Posted by Leatherette

It is about fluency, and fluency with math facts does help kids with higher-order math.

Fluency in math "facts" does not lead to higher-order math, understanding number theory does.

Typing tests are usually timed. If kids have too much time, they hunt and peck. I am not saying I support timed typing tests for third graders, but it could be to avoid bad keyboarding habits.

I'm actually more likely to hunt and peck when timed. My hunt and peck typing father is a faster typer than I am touch typing. It is a standard thing to time typing/keyboarding test, but intoducing it in 3rd grade is new. Before computers were so common, typing wasn't taught till highschool. I think this may lead to a lot of 4th graders with carpal tunnel syndrome. Actually hunt and peck typers though slower on average, rarely suffer from the repetitive stain injuries common amongst touch typers.

[KalamazooMom]

Originally Posted by eepster

Fluency in math "facts" does not lead to higher-order math, understanding number theory does.

So what's the difference between those 2 things?

I also never had any typing until high school. In my kids school they start computer lab once a week in kindergarten. But this is the first year there have been timed tests.

[CarrieMF]

I think this may lead to a lot of 4th graders with carpal tunnel syndrome.

lol, doubtful unless they're doing all their work on the computer. Carpal tunnel isn't from typing, but more from how a person is sitting while at the computer.

here they start teaching proper hand(and sitting) position from Grade 1. They don't do typing tests until later though.

We started typing tests in Grade 7.

[eepster]

Originally Posted by KalamazooMom

So what's the difference between those 2 things?

A really good explanation of the difference is beyond explaining in a simple post. However, I will give you a few examples involving the most basic of math skills.

Counting the sequence "one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, etc, etc" is a math "fact." Holding 2 objects in one hand and 4 objects in the other, and knowing you have more in the hand with 4 objects is number theory, whether you call those "four" "quatro" of you haven't learned number names yet.

A child who has learned through math "facts" to count to thirty, gets to thirty and stops and needs further instruction to learn what comes next. A child who has an understanding of number theory and has taught numbers up to thirty, understands that after 30 comes 31, 32, 33......39 after 39 they may even guess "thirty ten" then "thirty elevn".

You may have noticed that I always put "facts" in quotes when I refer to "math 'facts.'" When one moves on to higher order mathmatics, one learns that these are not true facts, but simply rules that work under certain circumstances, and since we use those circumstances for everyday arithmatic, it is useful.