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Why does it seem that have to time everything?? - Page 2  

post #21 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarrieMF View Post
lol, doubtful unless they're doing all their work on the computer. Carpal tunnel isn't from typing, but more from how a person is sitting while at the computer.

here they start teaching proper hand(and sitting) position from Grade 1. They don't do typing tests until later though.

We started typing tests in Grade 7.
I'm glad they are teaching proper sitting positions at your school, and avoiding having a flock of 4th graders with CT.

My point, which I guess I didn't express well, is; if you time the test, the 3rd graders are likely to be sloppy in there posture in the rush to type as many words as possible. I feel that in 3rd grade, encouraging good form and posture would be better achieved by encouraging the students to take their time and focus on form and posture, instead of speed. Which should naturally just come with practice.
post #22 of 32
What I was trying to say is that when kids are fluent in their facts, the theory is that more complicated math operations will be easier for them if they are not bogged down by not knowing their facts fluently (for example, not having to count on their fingers or draw out 6 groups of four as part of a 4-step math problem). I happen to believe that this theory makes sense.
post #23 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leatherette View Post
What I was trying to say is that when kids are fluent in their facts, the theory is that more complicated math operations will be easier for them if they are not bogged down by not knowing their facts fluently (for example, not having to count on their fingers or draw out 6 groups of four as part of a 4-step math problem). I happen to believe that this theory makes sense.
But the way you get to that point is what I don't agree with. You don't get there by timed math tests. You get there with activities that children enjoy doing and want to choose and do repeatedly.

That's how I do it, anyway.
post #24 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by LVale View Post
I had timed tests, well before NCLB, in elementary school clear through high school and this was from 1966-1976. No it is not a new thing at all.
The newness of NCLB is not necessarily timed tests. It's a whole movement away from critical and creative thinking that is the problem.

Most teachers get into the profession for the same reason - they really find meaning in helping a child find that spark and love of learning. At least I assume that's why most teachers get into teaching. Might be a bad assumption, but I bet it's on most people's lists somewhere. Under NCLB, you're not supposed to seek out that spark any more. You're supposed to do certain things at a certain time - not based on the needs of the child - but on the needs of the syllabus.
post #25 of 32
None of our NCLB related testing here is timed.

I'm not a fan of NCLB, but I also think that many schools and teachers take advantage of NCLB to "pass the buck" and use it to justify practices that haven't been shown to raise test scores or benefit children in any other way.

Having said that we had timed fact tests in elementary school, so I don't think this is something new. I do agree that there are better ways to teach math fluency.
post #26 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Momily View Post

I'm not a fan of NCLB, but I also think that many schools and teachers take advantage of NCLB to "pass the buck" and use it to justify practices that haven't been shown to raise test scores or benefit children in any other way.
What about complaining about NCLB in terms of the fact that:

1) Practices that DO raise test scores are the ones that are often cut out of the system. This is because it is much easier for the political head of a school board to cut out an entire system and show that he or she at least set up a curriculum that everyone is adhering to.

2) Much of what they're testing is actually backwards in the curriculum. Why would you test for math facts before you test to see if a child actually understands the usage of the math? Ever go to a fast food place and your order is $4.96 and you give the teenager a $5 bill and one cent? He looks at you in a state of confusion that George Bush would envy. Wouldn't it be better to teach practical application to math rather than starting with rote memorization and word problems?

3) It disables teachers from helping students move ahead. How are they going to move ahead if they don't understand what you just went over AND you're required, by the department of "education" to teach new concepts that build off what you just covered?

4) Not everyone is at the same level. Let's fact it- it's much harder to get a student to read if they have to dodge gunfire on the way home alone than if their parents come to pick them up to walk to the ice cream parlor before baseball practice.

You'd be hard pressed to find a teacher that thinks NCLB is beneficial to students. It does have some important pieces to it...unfunded, but important. But overall, I can't think of a more terrible piece of legislation that has passed in my lifetime.
post #27 of 32
I was in the middle of a long responce, when my laptop decided to overheat:, so this is a slightly abreviated version.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattBronsil View Post
Wouldn't it be better to teach practical application to math rather than starting with rote memorization and word problems?
bold mine
Word problems are the practical application of math.

Your example
Quote:
Ever go to a fast food place and your order is $4.96 and you give the teenager a $5 bill and one cent? He looks at you in a state of confusion that George Bush would envy.
is a word problem. The teen in question probably would not be confused by

5.01-4.96=X

Word problem are all about looking at everday situations and finding the math in them.
post #28 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by eepster View Post
I was in the middle of a long responce, when my laptop decided to overheat:, so this is a slightly abreviated version.

bold mine
Word problems are the practical application of math.

Your example

is a word problem. The teen in question probably would not be confused by

5.01-4.96=X

Word problem are all about looking at everday situations and finding the math in them.
But not in a practical sense. It's done with worksheets and text books - not through actually doing. I wish I had my resources with me here in Taiwan, but look through the research that shows how word problems do not translate into real math learning. What schools need to do is give the actual practical experience then use these things as an extension.

I loved what one educator recently said in a forum. I can't remember the exact quote, but :

"Coming from a farming background, I can tell you it's a lot easier to teach a person how to milk a cow with an actual cow than it is with a worksheet."

post #29 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Momily View Post
None of our NCLB related testing here is timed.
In NJ, ours are timed. I've had students in past years that were very bright, but very detailed in all of their work. Some of those students did very poorly on our state testing because of that. They are given a limit for everything from writing a story, where they get 25 whole minutes to timed reading passages and math multiple choice and open ended problems.

Even if your tests aren't timed, do your students have all day to do math? I have an 80 minute math block, which is a lot of time. When you have to count everything out on your fingers or by drawing little lines on the paper, you eat up a good portion of that time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eepster View Post
Fluency in math "facts" does not lead to higher-order math, understanding number theory does.
True, but not knowing the basic facts is also a hindrance to learning math concepts in general. I am currently working on multi-digit division with my students. The students that know their basic multiplication facts are having a very easy time understanding and working through the problems. Those that don't know their facts are lagging behind because they have reached a roadblock.
post #30 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by MattBronsil View Post
What about complaining about NCLB in terms of the fact that:

1) Practices that DO raise test scores are the ones that are often cut out of the system. This is because it is much easier for the political head of a school board to cut out an entire system and show that he or she at least set up a curriculum that everyone is adhering to.

2) Much of what they're testing is actually backwards in the curriculum. Why would you test for math facts before you test to see if a child actually understands the usage of the math? Ever go to a fast food place and your order is $4.96 and you give the teenager a $5 bill and one cent? He looks at you in a state of confusion that George Bush would envy. Wouldn't it be better to teach practical application to math rather than starting with rote memorization and word problems?

3) It disables teachers from helping students move ahead. How are they going to move ahead if they don't understand what you just went over AND you're required, by the department of "education" to teach new concepts that build off what you just covered?

4) Not everyone is at the same level. Let's fact it- it's much harder to get a student to read if they have to dodge gunfire on the way home alone than if their parents come to pick them up to walk to the ice cream parlor before baseball practice.

You'd be hard pressed to find a teacher that thinks NCLB is beneficial to students. It does have some important pieces to it...unfunded, but important. But overall, I can't think of a more terrible piece of legislation that has passed in my lifetime.
Matt,

I'm a special educator. If you want to find someone more likely to hate NCLB than a general ed teacher, you just have to find one of us. I am not defending the law in any way shape or form.

However, I also have to say that I also see many incidences where teachers, schools, school systems, or entire states adopt standards or practices that are not in the best interest of children, and are not demonstrated to raise test scores by any research, and when these practices are challenged they say "it's not our fault, it's NCLB". Saying that works really well at getting parents off your back, and excluding them from understanding and advocating for their kids' education.

Timed rote fact tests are an example of this. There's nothing in NCLB that says that state tests need to be timed, or that standards need to emphasize memorization of facts, or that if facts are to be memorized that they need to be taught through rote tests. The first two are decided at the state level, and the last at the district, school, or teacher level. And yet, when parents rightly raise concerns about these practices they're told "our hands are tied due to NCLB" and parents accept that and stop advocating.

Another example of that is eliminating recess (something that makes me furious). Again, I've never seen evidence that this actually improves academic performance, and have in fact seen studies to the contrary. There's also a lot of evidence that this is harmful to children in other ways. And yet schools continue to maintain that they "have to" do this due to NCLB, and parents buy that as an excuse.

I should add that in addition to being a teacher, I'm also an administrator who works in a predominantly low income public school that made AYP this year. I work in a state where state tests, while imperfect, are not timed, and place great emphasis on applications and problem solving. Within that context we've built a school where students are engaged in progressive constructivist learning, where kids get recess and choice time, and art, music, dance, and foreign language. Where kids take field trips, and get reasonable amounts of homework, and where time is devoted to building school culture through responsive teaching. Kids who struggle academically do get extra tutoring, but they (and every other student) still have opportunities to play on sports teams or participate in extracurricular activities like cartooning and Latin dancing. It can be done and when people say "NCLB" prevents them from doing so, they are passing the buck.

Again, I'm not advocating for NCLB or apologizing for it. It's a law with lots of awful pieces, and a few good pieces that aren't funded the way they need to be. But I do think that our tendency to blame every single negative thing in education on NCLB deflects energy that could be put towards powerful advocacy on a local level.
post #31 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Momily View Post

Again, I'm not advocating for NCLB or apologizing for it. It's a law with lots of awful pieces, and a few good pieces that aren't funded the way they need to be. But I do think that our tendency to blame every single negative thing in education on NCLB deflects energy that could be put towards powerful advocacy on a local level.
Well stated and well received. I have a lot to think about from this post.

Is it fair to say that a lot of the problems that aren't necessarily because of NCLB actually came up because of a reaction to NCLB on the more local level?
post #32 of 32
Quote:
But the way you get to that point is what I don't agree with. You don't get there by timed math tests. You get there with activities that children enjoy doing and want to choose and do repeatedly.

That's how I do it, anyway.
The only test I do that is timed is math facts practice. It is a very small part of what I do (1-2 minutes once or twice a week), and I only do it with kids that do love it. It motivates some kids to be timed, and it demotivates others. If it a child does not enjoy it, we don't do it. I flow with what the kids are into.

Please don't assume you know what I do and that it is somehow less than what you do because I was responding to the OP's question about why there are timed activities in school.

I don't believe in timed high stakes tests at all. I don't believe in high stakes tests, period, but I don't rule the world. Our district does allow extra time as an accommodation for all students.

I work with kids with dysgraphia, and learning how to type efficiently has saved them academically and boosted their self esteem and ability to communicate. If a child was having anxiety or other issues about learning to improve their typing fluency by being timed (it is a computer program that times them, not me, and it is individualized), we would do something differently. But saying that no activity should ever be timed doesn't jive with me. Sorry if that means I am in cahoots with "the man".
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