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The Great Depression Part 2? - Page 6

post #101 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by krankedyann View Post
Hard work in the physical sense, no. Keeping a 9-5 at a desk is not hard work. Farming, back-breaking labor and the like are hard work.

Keeping a home garden and keeping livestock is hard work. Most people think it's 'too much work.' How many times have I been told by some seeks my advice on ways to save money, has told me it's "too much work" to cook from scratch, grow a garden or hang clothes out on a line to dry? Wayyyyy too many for me to think we're not headed for trouble.
I have worked really hard at a desk longer than 9-5, but like this post, its not back breaking work like turning my garden dirt over in the spring to get it ready to plant. I do all the same things and I have also been told its too much work to have fresh smelling sweet clothing and sheets on your bed.
post #102 of 124
Let me put it another way.... When it comes down to it, people mostly do what they have to do. Of course some are just complete slackers, but FTMP even people who currently have it easy, will do what is necessary when things get harder. Just because they say something is "too much work" doesn't mean they wouldn't do it if they had to. It could just mean that they would complain a lot while doing it. And please don't try to tell me that no one complained during the Great Depression!

It sounds to me as though some of you are talking about people not being willing to do what they perceive as extra hard work in anticipation of bad times. Of course that's a problem, but it doesn't follow that the same people will refuse to do extra hard work during bad times.
post #103 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by lolar2 View Post
Let me put it another way.... When it comes down to it, people mostly do what they have to do. Of course some are just complete slackers, but FTMP even people who currently have it easy, will do what is necessary when things get harder. Just because they say something is "too much work" doesn't mean they wouldn't do it if they had to. It could just mean that they would complain a lot while doing it. And please don't try to tell me that no one complained during the Great Depression!

It sounds to me as though some of you are talking about people not being willing to do what they perceive as extra hard work in anticipation of bad times. Of course that's a problem, but it doesn't follow that the same people will refuse to do extra hard work during bad times.
That's the whole problem, right there. People might be willing to work hard if they have no other choice, but you have to know how to do hard work before the problem hits. Think about it- if you desperately need to be able to bake bread for your family, is there enough time for you to get through the learning curve, if you can find someone to teach you and have the necessary equipment to do the work? People who wait to learn new skills once the problem is upon them are already behind. We have a nation full of people who know little about where food comes from and how it is produced, and how to feed and clothe and shelter themselves if they lost the means to buy the needed finished products or the finished products were not available.

I have no issue with someone who can afford to order a pizza because they can afford it and it's easier, if they have the skill set necessary to feed themselves via scratch cooking if they had a bad accident, the death of the main breadwinner in the family, or a job loss. Hard times just don't come during economic downturns, they can show up at any time in your life.
post #104 of 124
Of course people need skills ahead of time. Believe me, I am ALL in favor of home ec/ life skills education in the home and at school. But that's not the subject you originally brought up on this thread. Your post said (bolding mine):

Quote:
Originally Posted by krankedyann View Post

<snip>

I also think people have become too distracted by bread and circuses and are much less likely to be willing to work hard than they used to be. And the entitlement mentality appears to be more pervasive than it once was. I no longer think we have a country full of people willing to rise up to greatness to work hard and repair a problem.

And I hope I'm wrong.
Where I'm disagreeing with you is that I don't think people are unwilling, if they HAVE to do that extra hard work. I will grant you that it's possible that too many people don't have the skills to do it. If it is the case that not enough people in this country have the proper skills for hanging clothes and cooking from scratch and all that, certainly they should be learning to do it ahead of time before they need to know. I'm not sure if there is research backing that up one way or another, though; it's possible that most have these skills to some extent and just choose not to use them. We were talking about that on the 100 Years Ago thread.
post #105 of 124
As far as whether we are at 5% or 10-15% unemployment, we must remember that our population is larger than the previous great depression, according to http://www.census.gov/main/www/popclock.html there are over305000000 people in the US, and in the 1930's there were 123188000 http://kclibrary.lonestar.edu/decade30.html so even if the numbers reported are only 5%, we're talking 5% of a population two thirds greater than that of the depression era.
post #106 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by ILoveMyBabyBird View Post
As far as whether we are at 5% or 10-15% unemployment, we must remember that our population is larger than the previous great depression, according to http://www.census.gov/main/www/popclock.html there are over305000000 people in the US, and in the 1930's there were 123188000 http://kclibrary.lonestar.edu/decade30.html so even if the numbers reported are only 5%, we're talking 5% of a population two thirds greater than that of the depression era.
Plus 70% of the population in 1930's were farmers which were automatically excluded from unemployment figures.
post #107 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by lolar2 View Post
I'm not sure if there is research backing that up one way or another, though; it's possible that most have these skills to some extent and just choose not to use them. We were talking about that on the 100 Years Ago thread.
I don't care what research says, per se. I know what I'm seeing and the increasing volume and desperate sound of the e-mails I'm getting from people. I run a forum that focuses on sustainability and cooking from scratch. You want to guess how many women I've had contact me recently asking me *how* to
-hang out laundry to dry.
-cook using something other than a microwave.
-cut down on the electric bill, and in the course of conversation it was obvious they didn't know about basic means of cutting the bill such as turning out lights and turning off computers when not in use.
-how to find children's clothing at some place other than a retail store.

I could go on with more examples. And I'm dead serious. And these are just the ones I'm hearing from. There are really women out there who don't know how to hang out laundry or use a drying rack or do anything other than boil water on a stove. Their mothers didn't teach them these skills because they were too busy or they didn't know how to do it themselves. And you know what? In my day-to-day life, I know two such women. They come over to my house regularly now to learn skills, and one of them calls me at dinner time here and there so I can walk her through a basic cooking technique- at 32, she's just now learning now to do basic cooking.
post #108 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by velochic View Post
Actually, the Great Depression of the 1930's (notice that now we are having to qualify *which* GD ) was world wide, too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Depression

I think there are a couple of important difference between then and now, though. First of all, during the 30's, 70% of the US population were farmers. Today, 1% of the population are farmers. Those that were farmers, except for the comparatively VERY SMALL portion that were affected by the Dust Bowl, were, for the most part, self-sufficient enough to not need any help. They had no money to get "boughten" goods, but they were able to put food on the table and barter to get things they really needed. That is GONE today. If people have to rely on themselves to provide their needs, they are SCREWED. Most people can't even cook a meal from scratch or bake their own bread. If they have to do more than peel off the plastic and put it in the microwave, they're lost. People are not resourceful anymore as a general rule.

I also think we live in more violent times. This is what worries me the most. We are pacifists and the thought of owning a weapon, let alone a GUN, scares the crap out of me. But I would do what it takes to keep my family safe. This is something that I worry over more than the economy... the rising crime rate.


:


AND the population of America has doubled since the 30s.




In the 30s, they called it a depression. They didn't call it the Great Depression, though.
post #109 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by slsurface View Post
This may be a little OT, but I'm really surprised at the shots people are taking at FDR's New Deal economics. How did the New Deal fail? What proof do you have, and I'm not talking about some author's feelings about it...where are the numbers? I'd really like to know more. Because from my perspective, the New Deal did create jobs, it did feed families, and it established the safety net (SS, farming subsidies, medicaid/care, etc.) that so many now rely on. The only problem that I see with the New Deal is that the safety net wasn't cast far enough or planned well enough to remain sustainable over the long-term. For example, our leaders, since FDR, did not understand how population dynamics (eg. Boomers) would lead to short-falls in SS.

Also, another major difference between now and the 1930s is that our government is already in a weakened economic state because of the Iraq war. It boggles my mind to think about how much different things could be right now (and the outlook for the future) if we hadn't squandered so many resources and lives in Iraq.


The CCC and the WPA created jobs, but not for everyone. They completely excluded minorities and most women. For white men who were still able to provide a home address, yes, they did provide jobs.
post #110 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by lolar2 View Post
???? OK we live in completely different worlds. Every day I drive past a gas station where there are always at least 10 men standing around wanting to do day labor. Depending on my work schedule, I sometimes go by the same gas station later in the day and see that maybe 2 of the 10 men (give or take) found work; the others are out of luck. And they aren't officially supposed to be there; there is another entire day labor center, established by the city, in another location. The men I see are overflow.

This isn't just anecdotal. Construction of new houses hit a low in January, I read. That means layoffs for construction workers whose line of work is, in fact, hard physical labor.

Likewise in the town where DH grew up, people fight and scramble for back-breaking factory and construction jobs that are few and far between.

Numbers-wise, there seem to be more people who want to do hard back-breaking labor, than there is back-breaking labor to go around.
Yes, this is what I see too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by krankedyann View Post
I don't care what research says, per se. I know what I'm seeing and the increasing volume and desperate sound of the e-mails I'm getting from people. I run a forum that focuses on sustainability and cooking from scratch. You want to guess how many women I've had contact me recently asking me *how* to
-hang out laundry to dry.
-cook using something other than a microwave.
-cut down on the electric bill, and in the course of conversation it was obvious they didn't know about basic means of cutting the bill such as turning out lights and turning off computers when not in use.
-how to find children's clothing at some place other than a retail store.

I could go on with more examples. And I'm dead serious. And these are just the ones I'm hearing from. There are really women out there who don't know how to hang out laundry or use a drying rack or do anything other than boil water on a stove. Their mothers didn't teach them these skills because they were too busy or they didn't know how to do it themselves. And you know what? In my day-to-day life, I know two such women. They come over to my house regularly now to learn skills, and one of them calls me at dinner time here and there so I can walk her through a basic cooking technique- at 32, she's just now learning now to do basic cooking.
Yk, the internet is a beautiful thing. People can learn how to do just about anything by doing a quick google search. For example, DH and I built two brick patios last summer. We never took a class or did that sort of thing before. All we did was look up how it was done online and then did it.

I agree that many people are lacking in basic "old-timey" skills, but it is absurd to think that people couldn't adapt and learn them if they needed to. Just because they take the easy way when they can, doesn't mean they won't do what's needed when the time comes. The fact that so many women have contacted you speaks to their drive to learn how. I think they would be hurt if they knew you were being this judgmental.

I know that 99% of Americans don't have the skills I have...but the only reason I have these skills is because I grew up in rural poverty and we did what we had to do to survive. I don't begrudge others because they haven't had these trials and learned these things, I just try to help them and teach them what I know.
post #111 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by A&A View Post
The CCC and the WPA created jobs, but not for everyone. They completely excluded minorities and most women. For white men who were still able to provide a home address, yes, they did provide jobs.
Minority support in the New Deal was limited, but minorities were not excluded:

http://www.livinghistoryfarm.org/far.../water_12.html
"Native Americans and African Americans were also included in the CCC. In all, there were 80,000 Native Americans who joined the CCC and worked on conservation projects on some of the land that they had lost through treaty or war.

There were also 250,000 African Americans who enrolled in the CCC. Black membership in the CCC was limited to 10 percent of the overall membership, roughly the percentage of blacks in the national population. However, African Americans were actually worse off during the Depression, so this race-based quota was a form of discrimination."

http://newdeal.feri.org/aaccc/index.htm

http://www.fs.fed.us/gpnf/forest-res...-troopers.html

I agree that there was not a lot in the New Deal for women. But putting it in the context of the day, a very minuscule percent of the female population worked outside the home in the 1930's. Most working women worked for family farms or businesses, neither of which were the focus of New Deal programs. Although Eleanor Roosevelt was certainly a champion of women's rights and she made her mark in the feminist movement.
post #112 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by krankedyann View Post
I don't care what research says, per se. I know what I'm seeing and the increasing volume and desperate sound of the e-mails I'm getting from people. I run a forum that focuses on sustainability and cooking from scratch. You want to guess how many women I've had contact me recently asking me *how* to
-hang out laundry to dry.
-cook using something other than a microwave.
-cut down on the electric bill, and in the course of conversation it was obvious they didn't know about basic means of cutting the bill such as turning out lights and turning off computers when not in use.
-how to find children's clothing at some place other than a retail store.

I could go on with more examples. And I'm dead serious. And these are just the ones I'm hearing from. There are really women out there who don't know how to hang out laundry or use a drying rack or do anything other than boil water on a stove. Their mothers didn't teach them these skills because they were too busy or they didn't know how to do it themselves. And you know what? In my day-to-day life, I know two such women. They come over to my house regularly now to learn skills, and one of them calls me at dinner time here and there so I can walk her through a basic cooking technique- at 32, she's just now learning now to do basic cooking.
Boy, do I know what you mean! I'll be 40 in a month. My mother didn't care to show me how to cook. I asked, but she couldn't be bothered. She was the queen of convenience foods. She did teach me to do laundry and clean, though. I went through college on cheap frozen dinners, frozen pizza, sandwiches, spaghetti, and eggs. At 26-27, I got a few beginner cookbooks and taught myself how to cook. I am now counted a very good cook amongst my circle. I sought out friends who baked all their bread from scratch. I could do it by hand but I have carpal tunnel.

Skills such as sewing (aside from basic mending), knitting and crocheting are out for me due to the carpal tunnel. On the other hand, I'm great with frugality, simple living.

I know how to survive withOUT a TV - I think this is a more crucial skill than many realize! I've been TV free for 5+ years. I love NPR and other radio.
post #113 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by krankedyann View Post
I don't care what research says, per se. I know what I'm seeing and the increasing volume and desperate sound of the e-mails I'm getting from people. I run a forum that focuses on sustainability and cooking from scratch. You want to guess how many women I've had contact me recently asking me *how* to
-hang out laundry to dry.
-cook using something other than a microwave.
-cut down on the electric bill, and in the course of conversation it was obvious they didn't know about basic means of cutting the bill such as turning out lights and turning off computers when not in use.
-how to find children's clothing at some place other than a retail store.

I could go on with more examples. And I'm dead serious. And these are just the ones I'm hearing from. There are really women out there who don't know how to hang out laundry or use a drying rack or do anything other than boil water on a stove. Their mothers didn't teach them these skills because they were too busy or they didn't know how to do it themselves. And you know what? In my day-to-day life, I know two such women. They come over to my house regularly now to learn skills, and one of them calls me at dinner time here and there so I can walk her through a basic cooking technique- at 32, she's just now learning now to do basic cooking.
But that proves the opposite of your original statement. They are willing! And they are making the effort.
post #114 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by lolar2 View Post
But that proves the opposite of your original statement. They are willing! And they are making the effort.
No, it proves my point because my point was that they wait to learn these new skills when it's critical, and if they had had them all along, they wouldn't be suffering as badly. Learning a new skill when it's desperately needed is bad because there's a learning curve to every skill and it can cost you dearly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by slsurface View Post
I agree that many people are lacking in basic "old-timey" skills, but it is absurd to think that people couldn't adapt and learn them if they needed to. Just because they take the easy way when they can, doesn't mean they won't do what's needed when the time comes. The fact that so many women have contacted you speaks to their drive to learn how. I think they would be hurt if they knew you were being this judgmental.
First off, I'm not being judgmental at all, and you're totally reading that wrong. I'm a teacher by nature and I work very hard to help these women learn the skills that they need and I enjoy watching them learn and grow. The woman IRL I mentioned is my best friend and I have never once laughed at her or at any of them. I was in their exact same shoes 10 years ago and I had to teach myself to cook, clean, sew, do laundry, garden, can, keep animals, knit, etc... You see, my mother didn't teach me much, or rather, my life was so full of acedemics, there wasn't time to learn anything else. My husband taught me how to clean and do laundry. The rest I learned on my own. I'm not judgmental because I was her 10 years ago. One thing that I hear repeatedly on my forums is how non-judgmental it is compared to other forums of the same type and subject matter.

If you don't have the skills you need, and you've lost the internet thanks to lack of money, how then do you learn? Most people don't even think about going to a library or calling the county extension (IF they know how to do that particular skill you need). Some of these skills arepracticed by few people, so you're not always going to have someone IRL who can teach you. If a skill is critical, you might be able to muddle through, but not always. And muddling through is costly at the very time you don't have the money to expend.

That's why it is so critical to have a skill before it is needed. It puts you ahead of the curve. I do believe that many mothers will pick up and learn certain skills as things get worse for them, but I believe it could come at a heavy price that they wouldn't have had to pay if they had learned beforehand.
post #115 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by krankedyann View Post
I don't care what research says, per se. I know what I'm seeing and the increasing volume and desperate sound of the e-mails I'm getting from people. I run a forum that focuses on sustainability and cooking from scratch. You want to guess how many women I've had contact me recently asking me *how* to
-hang out laundry to dry.
-cook using something other than a microwave.
-cut down on the electric bill, and in the course of conversation it was obvious they didn't know about basic means of cutting the bill such as turning out lights and turning off computers when not in use.
-how to find children's clothing at some place other than a retail store.

I could go on with more examples. And I'm dead serious. And these are just the ones I'm hearing from. There are really women out there who don't know how to hang out laundry or use a drying rack or do anything other than boil water on a stove. Their mothers didn't teach them these skills because they were too busy or they didn't know how to do it themselves. And you know what? In my day-to-day life, I know two such women. They come over to my house regularly now to learn skills, and one of them calls me at dinner time here and there so I can walk her through a basic cooking technique- at 32, she's just now learning now to do basic cooking.
I 100% agree w this statement and I do not find a bit of judgement in this. This is factual. I do not run a website, but I must get 1-3 calls weekly about cooking, laundry, etc. This is from people IRL who know I can help them. This went on before this whole media induced depression, now its more urgent.

I had a friend of mine introduce me to her MIL a few weeks ago. She said, "Mom this is Amy who makes that home made stock." She was at my house, asked for some ideas on recipes and she borrowed a book and while looking at a simple recipe, she asked me what stock was. After I explained, I pulled a container out of the freezer of stock for her. She used it for the recipe and a few other things as well. She wants me to start a cooking class in my home for her and a few others to teach them how to "cook like a traditional cook". This happend while I was growing up too, a lot of people dont cook from scratch like my mom did and MIL did. I remember in 8th grade the home ex teacher giving me a D becuase I didnt know what or how to use velvetta, she said I had a bad attitude. Boy that was a call to her from my mom! This was nearly 25 years ago mind you.
post #116 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by krankedyann View Post
No, it proves my point because my point was that they wait to learn these new skills when it's critical, and if they had had them all along, they wouldn't be suffering as badly. Learning a new skill when it's desperately needed is bad because there's a learning curve to every skill and it can cost you dearly.



First off, I'm not being judgmental at all, and you're totally reading that wrong. I'm a teacher by nature and I work very hard to help these women learn the skills that they need and I enjoy watching them learn and grow. The woman IRL I mentioned is my best friend and I have never once laughed at her or at any of them. I was in their exact same shoes 10 years ago and I had to teach myself to cook, clean, sew, do laundry, garden, can, keep animals, knit, etc... You see, my mother didn't teach me much, or rather, my life was so full of acedemics, there wasn't time to learn anything else. My husband taught me how to clean and do laundry. The rest I learned on my own. I'm not judgmental because I was her 10 years ago. One thing that I hear repeatedly on my forums is how non-judgmental it is compared to other forums of the same type and subject matter.

If you don't have the skills you need, and you've lost the internet thanks to lack of money, how then do you learn? Most people don't even think about going to a library or calling the county extension (IF they know how to do that particular skill you need). Some of these skills arepracticed by few people, so you're not always going to have someone IRL who can teach you. If a skill is critical, you might be able to muddle through, but not always. And muddling through is costly at the very time you don't have the money to expend.

That's why it is so critical to have a skill before it is needed. It puts you ahead of the curve. I do believe that many mothers will pick up and learn certain skills as things get worse for them, but I believe it could come at a heavy price that they wouldn't have had to pay if they had learned beforehand.

I absolutely agree. I am in my early 40's. My Mom did teach me to cook from scratch. However, I will say my pie crust sucks.

My sewing skill is limited but with practice would get better. I have a new sewing machine plus my Grandmothers Singer push peddle sewing machine from 1916. But that needs the belt repaired (its made of leather).

I agree with others. I think we already are in a Depression.

We saw this coming December of 2007. We were living in Bozeman and the company my husband was working for was losing work. Clients delaying or outright canceling projects. Then Feb 1st 2008 my husband was layed off. It took 4 months and us moving over 1200 miles for him to find work.

I shudder to think he could lose his job again with the economy (he works for engineers).
post #117 of 124
I hear this.

DH and I bake about 90% of our baked goods from scratch, we make and can lots of condiments, we can and freeze lots of produce (this more "processed food" than people realize- there's things like exotic sugar water involved), we brew beer and wine, we make our own cleaning and personal care products, we barely use anything disposible, we have equipment to cook and do laundry in the backyard, and DH has been known to smoke fish and cure bacon.

We live 500 miles away from where we both grew up, and the few who've made the trek up to actually visit us have reported back to everyone else that we live like Little House on the Prarie or something. We live right in town! Blocks from downtown! On a city lot- so that's like, what, 1/8 acre? We are not only on the grid, we are on city water and sewer. Everyone always says, "We hear you guys make all your own $h!t." Verbatim.

Something that's somewhat time consuming but not particularly difficult- like, say, making yogurt- is met with increased awe, especially when I say, "Really, it's NOT hard".

And I am not judging these people- these are my loved ones!
post #118 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leta View Post
I hear this.

DH and I bake about 90% of our baked goods from scratch, we make and can lots of condiments, we can and freeze lots of produce (this more "processed food" than people realize- there's things like exotic sugar water involved), we brew beer and wine, we make our own cleaning and personal care products, we barely use anything disposible, we have equipment to cook and do laundry in the backyard, and DH has been known to smoke fish and cure bacon.

We live 500 miles away from where we both grew up, and the few who've made the trek up to actually visit us have reported back to everyone else that we live like Little House on the Prarie or something. We live right in town! Blocks from downtown! On a city lot- so that's like, what, 1/8 acre? We are not only on the grid, we are on city water and sewer. Everyone always says, "We hear you guys make all your own $h!t." Verbatim.

Something that's somewhat time consuming but not particularly difficult- like, say, making yogurt- is met with increased awe, especially when I say, "Really, it's NOT hard".

And I am not judging these people- these are my loved ones!
Hey! I do you cure bacon?

:
post #119 of 124
Ok I want to chime in here as I read this forum quite often just don't normally have anything I feel needs added.

I want to say tho that while this (whatever it is, recession/depression) was caused by GREED and the american dream of owning a home and cars etc, it is being fueled by fear. Greenspan saw it coming, that was just on the television the other night on msnbc, however he felt that the markets should police themselves. Plus when he saw it, tho it was several years ago, stopping it would have caused the same thing to happen then. It was inevitable. But the fear I am talking about is the fear to spend any money. Its basic economics that in order for our economy to survive people MUST spend money. Tax cuts are not the ONLY answer. I have a true belief that our govt needs to spend money, help get people back working, and in all honestly they need to REGULATE so much of the areas that have started this in the first place. I am sorry but there is NO REASON that ANYONE needs to make more than a million dollars a year. That in my opinion is insane. There is no goods in the WORLD that is worth that much. Nothing that can be grown, or produced needs to have a price tag of that much.

Here is my personal opinion on things and take it as just that and I am open to the flames that may follow.
Everything in our society, both american and otherwise needs to be reduced in cost to a reasonable level. If the cost of goods was reduced, the level of wages would not need to be as high as it is just to survive. Things are priced the way they are because people were willing to spend that much. Food grows in the ground with dirt that is part of the earth, rain that falls from the sky and sun that is free as well. So lets just use a loaf of bread as an example and lets say it costs 2.00 to buy said loaf of bread. WHY? The cost to grow the wheat in the ground SHOULD be for all means and purposes free. So then you need someone to pick said wheat. Ok so lets pay this person 3.00 an hour. The wheat that they picked in an hour will make say 10 loaves of bread, after one more person who is making again 3.00 an hour grinds it. See my point. If we reduced wages and the cost of goods WORLD WIDE, plus went to eating and using things that are produced locally rather than having these goods trucked around the world that would help as well. There in my opinion is no goods in the world that is worth what people are currently paying for them.

But that being said, in order to keep our economy from crumbling around us consumers need to spend money, not let the media scare them to the point of of spending nothing and pulling all their money out of the markets etc. Fear does no one any good it just causes more problems which causes more fear.
post #120 of 124
organicmommy, my father died in 2007 at the age of 57. Two years before he died, he predicted that we were going to see a period of marked DEflation in the next 20 years. I agree with your assessment and my late-father's. We cannot sustain the sort of growth that was seen in the last 30 years. Everything will have to be re-set to lower wages and lower costs. But it's going to be a painful transition. Those of us with homes and investments stand to loose a lot in the process. But the upside is that there will no longer be 1st world and 3rd world nations...we'll all have be on the same page. The problem is this means a reduction in the standard of living for the former 1st world nations. This is what scares people. We are standing at the threshold of history. We, all humanity, just have to make the leap towards greener, more sustainable, and less wasteful society.
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