The Great Depression Part 2? - Page 2

[Violet2]

Originally Posted by Amys1st

That is our feeling. DH and I made a decision several years ago (maybe 2 decades ago like velochic) that we wanted to be resourceful and raise our children to be resourceful. If I had a nickel for everytime someone looked at my like I have 6 heads for my frugal choices, I could settle the Redepression myself.

It is very hard to observe how this forum has changed over the last several months. Where we used to send each other to quirky sights, calculators and share frugal tips, now we have people who need to learn how to be resourceful, cook from scratch, or dig out of this debt they are in before it gets worse.


more later...

And yet there is still a strong sentiment of 'stocks will go back up' and 'everything will be fine'. I recall, a few months ago, someone here called me stupid when I suggested it was time to get out of the stock market.

I cannot see how anyone expects a stock market recovery. The stock market boomed based on lies and swindles. For it to come back in my life time, we would have to lie and swindle some more. Although,historically we seem to do exactly that so who knows? But my trust in the system is broken and I will no longer give money or my future to cheaters and liars.

V

[Sonnenwende]

Originally Posted by velochic

Actually, the Great Depression of the 1930's (notice that now we are having to qualify *which* GD ) was world wide, too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Depression

I think there are a couple of important difference between then and now, though. First of all, during the 30's, 70% of the US population were farmers. Today, 1% of the population are farmers. Those that were farmers, except for the comparatively VERY SMALL portion that were affected by the Dust Bowl, were, for the most part, self-sufficient enough to not need any help. They had no money to get "boughten" goods, but they were able to put food on the table and barter to get things they really needed. That is GONE today. If people have to rely on themselves to provide their needs, they are SCREWED. Most people can't even cook a meal from scratch or bake their own bread. If they have to do more than peel off the plastic and put it in the microwave, they're lost. People are not resourceful anymore as a general rule.

I also think we live in more violent times. This is what worries me the most. We are pacifists and the thought of owning a weapon, let alone a GUN, scares the crap out of me. But I would do what it takes to keep my family safe. This is something that I worry over more than the economy... the rising crime rate.

Nice for most things, but I can't barter for chemotherapy or treatment for a stroke.

Times have always been violent and it is silly to try to say that now is more violent than then. But in neither depression did society completely collapse, so I have my doubts this time will be different.

[tayndrewsmama]

Originally Posted by krankedyann

I agree. I recently read in a newspaper article that in some states it's taking up to three months to get your first unemployment check, they're so swamped.

Back in December it was already out a month to get a check from MA. The website keeps crashing and the phone systems are crashing too. We even got a letter a couple of weeks ago apologizing for the problems and assuring us that everyone would get the money they are due despite the crashes. That was quite a surprise. Since when does any government agency apologize for anything?

Originally Posted by Violet2

And yet there is still a strong sentiment of 'stocks will go back up' and 'everything will be fine'. I recall, a few months ago, someone here called me stupid when I suggested it was time to get out of the stock market.

I cannot see how anyone expects a stock market recovery. The stock market boomed based on lies and swindles. For it to come back in my life time, we would have to lie and swindle some more. Although,historically we seem to do exactly that so who knows? But my trust in the system is broken and I will no longer give money or my future to cheaters and liars.

V

That thread is gone now, but I did NOT call you stupid. I am quite certain that I would have received a warning if I did call you stupid.



I agree that it is highly annoying to listen to the constant yapping from investment agents who want us to dump all of our available cash into the market. Dh has barely worked more than a couple of weeks since the beginning of December. How can anyone sleep at night trying to pull the rug out from underneath people who are just barely getting what they need to make it now?

I just ignore them now. We haven't taken it out, but we aren't putting anything into the market either. We need to eat.

[Tradd]

Amys1st wrote:

If I had a nickel for everytime someone looked at my like I have 6 heads for my frugal choices, I could settle the Redepression myself.

It is very hard to observe how this forum has changed over the last several months. Where we used to send each other to quirky sights, calculators and share frugal tips, now we have people who need to learn how to be resourceful, cook from scratch, or dig out of this debt they are in before it gets worse

Shees...tell me about it. Yesterday, riding back to the office with several other coworkers after visiting a customer, one woman mentioned she needed a new car (current vehicle is over 200K miles and needs a new engine) and she wants an SUV. This is someone whose husband has been cut to a 4 day work week and his company might be going under. She's got $10K in the bank that was earmarked for a new roof, then they hoped it would be for if her husband was laid off, and now a car is needed. One of the guys told her to get a Camry, Civic, or Corolla with about 50K miles on it. She didn't like that idea.

I told her a car is just basic transportation (I drive a Focus). She snapped and said "Everything has to always be so 'plain Jane' with you." I told her that "plain Jane" thing has me $2200 from being TOTALLY debt free (car loan). She actually said she couldn't be plain Jane - she needed "style.":

Boy, are my coworker's priorities out of wack!

I agree that the tone of this forum has become much different. There's an air of desperation in many posts. It's quite a difference from a simple living forum I hang out at. Things are pretty calm there. Folks were pretty much all living below their means, trying to pay down debt, living very simply.

My car is paid ahead through June. I'm throwing all money I can into my savings account. If things pick up, I can just write one check and pay the car off. I've got about $1500 in there right now. I've got some dental work that needs to be done - a filling or two have fallen out - but it's not hurting so I'm putting it off as long as possible.

I work in international shipping, for a freight forwarder, doing ocean import. Yes, those ocean containers. In January of this year, we did HALF of what we did in January 2008. Right now, my work load is very small. Some of our customers are barely importing at all. They're usually trying to work off inventory they already have in their warehouses.

My company had lay-offs in early December. 25% of the American workforce for my company went away. I can easily see another round of layoffs, with 1, maybe 2 people in my department, going away. However, January was a great month for the company - they more than exceeded the profit goals (don't ask me how, I think it was exports & air freight), and they've said they wanted to keep the employees they have now. I read yesterday about an office supply company (manufacturer) in the Chicago area is going to a 47% paycut for six weeks for all employees. 47%! It will be going to 30% after six weeks, through at least June. This is not my company with the pay cut, but one I read about online in one of the Chicago papers.

Something is going well with my company since they gave us long-term disability insurance when we never had it before, and have upped the company match on our 401K.

I'm saving everything I can. Pretty frugal, no cable (I'm TV-free), prepaid cell phone. I'm going to see about reducing my landline phone service to basic (and using Skype more - I've only used it a few times) and more lentils, etc.

[p1gg1e]

Originally Posted by Tradd

I told her a car is just basic transportation (I drive a Focus). She snapped and said "Everything has to always be so 'plain Jane' with you." I told her that "plain Jane" thing has me $2200 from being TOTALLY debt free (car loan). She actually said she couldn't be plain Jane - she needed "style.":

Boy, are her priorities out of wack!

She could get some big black sun glasses also to go with that car. When they are starving she will look like a super model

See and everyone thought that look was hard to come by

[tayndrewsmama]

That's rather nasty to say. Not everyone is at the same stage in their life.

[Violet2]

Tayndrewsmomma: No worries. I don't even remember who it was, but the stock market tanked shortly after and I still have all my money. I wonder how they are doing?

Tradd: I was an expert in international supply chain mgmt. I'm looking for a new career.

V

[Tradd]

Piggle, would you please edit the post where you quoted me. It looks like Amy1st said the part you quoted, but it was really me.

Thanks!

[Tradd]

Originally Posted by Violet2

Tradd: I was an expert in international supply chain mgmt. I'm looking for a new career.

V

V, are you still even working?

[4kidlets4me]

My main problem is my dh thinks I'm nuts:. As far as he is concerned there is nothing we can do about the economic climate so why worry about it. Maybe it is the motherly instinct but if I can do anything to prepare I'm gonna do it!! So far we are aggressively paying off debt and I am trying to build up a stockpile of food and water. I would love to have a garden but I have no outdoor space. We are planing on buying a house towards the end of the year, I think that will make me feel a lot better as well. If I mention to him XYZ is on sale I need to pick up a few extra he looks at me like I'm crazy.


Anyone else in my boat?

[Violet2]

Originally Posted by Tradd

V, are you still even working?

I quit to sahm. My successor is still employed though. It was a Fortune 500 gig with a financially conservative company, so pretty stable.

I liked the field and was really good at it. Globalization is not dead, some of this is growing pains. We are learning what doesn't work. Globalization of goods is good if coupled with strong local production and local economies. Globalization of fraudulent financial scams or at the expense of developing local commerce is not.

Hey the Phoenicians invented maritime insurance. Globalization isn't going to die, it just won't employ as many people.

V

[tayndrewsmama]

Originally Posted by Violet2

Tayndrewsmomma: No worries. I don't even remember who it was, but the stock market tanked shortly after and I still have all my money. I wonder how they are doing?

Tradd: I was an expert in international supply chain mgmt. I'm looking for a new career.

V

Maybe it was a different thread than the one I am thinking about. I am remembering a bank thread....not stock market.

[lolar2]

Originally Posted by 4kidlets4me

My main problem is my dh thinks I'm nuts:. As far as he is concerned there is nothing we can do about the economic climate so why worry about it. Maybe it is the motherly instinct but if I can do anything to prepare I'm gonna do it!! So far we are aggressively paying off debt and I am trying to build up a stockpile of food and water. I would love to have a garden but I have no outdoor space. We are planing on buying a house towards the end of the year, I think that will make me feel a lot better as well. If I mention to him XYZ is on sale I need to pick up a few extra he looks at me like I'm crazy.


Anyone else in my boat?

I'm not, but I think your plan is a great idea in any economic climate, good or bad. Maybe you could sell it to him that way.

[JTA Mom]

Originally Posted by velochic

I also think we live in more violent times. This is what worries me the most. We are pacifists and the thought of owning a weapon, let alone a GUN, scares the crap out of me. But I would do what it takes to keep my family safe. This is something that I worry over more than the economy... the rising crime rate.

Not any more violent times than the 1930s. That was during prohibition, so lots of illegal alcohol & tons of gangster activity. The only difference today? The gangs are not Irish/Italian, but other 'minorities' and most of them are dealing with the illegal drug trade. Think of the Valentine's day massacre--pretty nasty stuff. Also, theft was a HUGE problem. Even the Grandma from the Depression Cooking link on another thread mentioned how her neighbor in the small town came over to 'shop' in their garden. I transcribed letters from that era and there were mentions of thefts too (clothing taken from the line, milk from the door steps, etc). Lots of crime, but the nostalgia that people have with that time glosses over that. There are some scholars who argue that there was, in fact, a large amount of Americans who starved to death (the numbers don't really add up in the census' I think). But no one hears about that because it would 'ruin' the 'goodness' of that time.

Originally Posted by Tradd

I told her a car is just basic transportation (I drive a Focus). She snapped and said "Everything has to always be so 'plain Jane' with you." I told her that "plain Jane" thing has me $2200 from being TOTALLY debt free (car loan). She actually said she couldn't be plain Jane - she needed "style.":

Originally Posted by tayndrewsmama

That's rather nasty to say. Not everyone is at the same stage in their life.

I don't see anything 'nasty' about the above comment, tayndrewsmama. Tradd's co-worker is obviously not paying attention to the environment around her. Those super high gas prices were what, 5 months ago? Umm, too short a time to COUNT on that. Plus with a roof to fix and her dh having problems at work=almost idiotic move to deplete all savings to buy a huge gas guzzler. Sorry, it's the truth. If the water filling the tub feels really hot, I'm not going to put my baby in it, kwim?

I agree with you, Tradd. So many people today think NOTHING of blowing money left & right. I have friends who want to go out to eat. And not to the dollar menu, but somewhere that costs $20 per person. These are young people like us, straight out of college, and few good job prospects, so not a lot of money. Seriously, if they only eat out twice a week, that's $160 a month that could have bought a lot of 'expensive' foods at the grocery store!

I think a lot of it is the whole 'future reward vs. today's pleasure' principle. I can see that chunk of money adding up fast, but others don't really think ahead that much. My sister just got married & they moved into a 2 bdr apt. It's just her & her husband, but they wanted to have an 'office'. They can cover the rent easily, but I asked her why they didn't move into a 1 bdr & save up the difference so that they will have a good down payment for a house that much sooner. She told me that they weren't looking to buy for at least a couple more years. Like a down payment will magically appear by then, lol. I think some of it has to do with maturity, and another part has to do with financial knowledge. A lot of people don't really know how credit works, or what debt can do.

Ami

[tayndrewsmama]

Originally Posted by JTA Mom

I don't see anything 'nasty' about the above comment, tayndrewsmama. Tradd's co-worker is obviously not paying attention to the environment around her. Those super high gas prices were what, 5 months ago? Umm, too short a time to COUNT on that. Plus with a roof to fix and her dh having problems at work=almost idiotic move to deplete all savings to buy a huge gas guzzler. Sorry, it's the truth. If the water filling the tub feels really hot, I'm not going to put my baby in it, kwim?

Ami

I think it's nasty or uncalled for because that woman isn't hurting anyone but herself and isn't asking for Tradd or anyone else to bail her out of a situation. I agree that it isn't the decision I would make in that situation, but it's just judgmental and doesn't do anything to help anyone except their own ego by pointing out what is seen as the flaws of another.

[lolar2]

Originally Posted by JTA Mom

Not any more violent times than the 1930s. That was during prohibition, so lots of illegal alcohol & tons of gangster activity. The only difference today? The gangs are not Irish/Italian, but other 'minorities' and most of them are dealing with the illegal drug trade. Think of the Valentine's day massacre--pretty nasty stuff.

My great-grandfather was a bootlegger in Chicago during Prohibition. He was killed by the mafia for not paying protection money. Yep. It was very violent back then, too.

[tayndrewsmama]

Originally Posted by lolar2

My great-grandfather was a bootlegger in Chicago during Prohibition. He was killed by the mafia for not paying protection money. Yep. It was very violent back then, too.

I think many are seeing more violence than they remember seeing previous years and that may be why there is the thought that it's just more violent than past 'bad times'. I asked my mom if she thought things were worse now than when she was my age and she thinks people have always been like this.

One thing to remember is that with today's media it's much easier for us to be aware of many more incidents.

[Delicateflower]

Originally Posted by Violet2

Well according to this article the 19th century depression lasted 20+ years! I don't care if it is mild, 20 years of sucky economy would blow!


The historian Scott Reynolds Nelson has noted that in some respects, today’s crisis most closely resembles the “Long Depression,” which stretched, by one definition, from 1873 to 1896. It began as a banking crisis brought on by insolvent mortgages and complex financial instruments, and quickly spread to the real economy, leading to mass unemployment that reached 25 percent in New York.

But per the OP yeah this is the Great Depression version 2.0.

V

MDCers will have to agree with anything he says, look at his pic
http://web.wm.edu/history/directory.php?personid=6520 he slings his baby!

[JTA Mom]

Originally Posted by tayndrewsmama

I think it's nasty or uncalled for because that woman isn't hurting anyone but herself and isn't asking for Tradd or anyone else to bail her out of a situation. I agree that it isn't the decision I would make in that situation, but it's just judgmental and doesn't do anything to help anyone except their own ego by pointing out what is seen as the flaws of another.

See, but multiply that sentiment by thousands and you get the current mortgage crisis. It doesn't hurt anyone else....unless her husband loses his job, she defaults on the car loan, causing the banks to have yet another defaulted loan, etc etc. It's the bad decisions made during bad circumstances that make one wonder why. Bad decisions hurt more than just her. It ripples out. It's not judgmental to say, you know what it's not right to do that in a shaky economy with shaky job prospects. It's the truth. And yes, we all make mistakes, have flaws. But having people point them out can help us fix them. No one is perfect, nor is perfection expected of anyone. But letting people talk about getting in over their heads without reminding them it may not be wise (from the info they gave us) makes us an accomplice to their eventual pain. If your friend was thinking of doing something illegal, you'd try to talk her out of it, right? Why is doing the same thing with finances judgmental? A lot of threads here lately lament the fact that no one told them the impact that making bad decisions would have--in fact, a few times they mention feeling pressured by family/friends to do certain (bad) moves, like buying a house.

I'm thinking of the number of people with huge houses they can't afford, newish SUVs, with cable who are in forclosure talks, can't really afford food or heat--and I wonder if those around them tried to warn them. It's no one's responsibility to take care of another adult, but not reminding them of certain issues, and letting them forge ahead with a bad plan isn't good either. At least, it's not what friends should do. My friends have jumped in to remind me not to make stupid moves, and I do that for them. It sometimes saves us some heartache in the end. For example, my tendency is that I tend to buy lots of inexpensive unnecessary crap--so when out shopping my friend will remind me if I really *need* another ribbon or fabric to add to my stash.

Ami

[slsurface]

Originally Posted by Denvergirlie

I would agree, I watched a little blip this morning about how consuming is done for as it was in the past. A new era has arrived and Americans’ standard of living is undergoing a permanent change.

http://finance.yahoo.com/tech-ticker...SPC,%5EDJI,RTH

It's about time people realized this!