Can you reconcile Christianity with feminism?

[MittensKittens]

I hope to get your thoughts on this issue, as it is something I have been struggling with. I was raised in an atheist home, but have been exploring my spirituality over the last couple of years and attending Church services I feel very comfortable with and at home in (Serbian Orthodox Church). I do have to stressed that I have remained at the exploration stage very much. I categorically reject the notion that women are less than men, have to subject to their husbands, and similar ideas, and identify as a feminist.

I would love to hear from anyone who has any angle on this.

[cappuccinosmom]

It depends on your definition of feminism, I think. I wouldn't id as a feminist because what that represents to me currently, I really don't like.

I have remained at the exploration stage very much. I categorically reject the notion that women are less than men

I do to. And I do not believe the Bible teaches this. Differences in roles and functions, yes. But differences in ability, intelligence or human value or worth, no.


However, there are plenty of Christians who combine their faith with radical feminism. I know quite a few IRL.

[jlpumkin]

Originally Posted by cappuccinosmom

I do to. And I do not believe the Bible teaches this. Differences in roles and functions, yes. But differences in ability, intelligence or human value or worth, no.

I believe this. I identify as a traditional feminist. I don't feel I need to become a man or have all of his masculine qualities to be his equal.

I believe the original movement was necessary to allow women to care for themselves and their families. I think that at it's core it accomplished a lot. But I think I probably turned off of the path at some point.

[paulam]

Women are not less than men in the Bible. As the previous post stated they have different roles and responsibilities. I do have to obey my DH, but my DH has to be willing to die for me, just as Christ died for the church. Christ loved the Church and DH has to love me that much. So anyone who loves something so much as to die for it, would not be demanding, controlling and manipulative. Those actions do not come out of love. DH loves me so much that he wants my input on decisions and will decide to proceed with my decisions or make sure I am comfortable with the decision. Someone who truly has that much love also would never make a decision that would hurt that person.

[Tradd]

Originally Posted by MittensKittens

I hope to get your thoughts on this issue, as it is something I have been struggling with. I was raised in an atheist home, but have been exploring my spirituality over the last couple of years and attending Church services I feel very comfortable with and at home in (Serbian Orthodox Church). I do have to stressed that I have remained at the exploration stage very much. I categorically reject the notion that women are less than men, have to subject to their husbands, and similar ideas, and identify as a feminist.

I would love to hear from anyone who has any angle on this.

I'm Orthodox. The Orthodox view on submission (women being subject to their husbands) is much different than that of Protestantism, which is the one most people have in their minds. The Orthodox very much subscribe to the mutual submission of husband & wife St. Paul writes of.

Perhaps this might help (OCA Encyclical on Marriage)

http://www.oca.org/DOCencyclical.asp?SID=12&ID=4

ETA: if you're in an ethnic Serbian parish, there will be cultural norms that are coloring what the priest and others are telling you. In other words, you're probably going to get a different take on an ethnic Serbian priest, especially if he's from Serbia, than one who is American-born and raised. I was recently dating someone from the Balkans and the culture is VERY traditional - man is the head of the family, and the woman does everything with the home, even if working full time, etc.

[MittensKittens]

Originally Posted by paulam

Women are not less than men in the Bible.


I do have to obey my DH, but my DH has to be willing to die for me, just as Christ died for the church.

Thanks for your input. What you are saying gets straight too the core of what I have difficulty with. The two above sentences seem to be in conflict with each other, from where I stand. If I have to obey someone, that means submission by definition (what am I missing?), which does not mean equality. I do not wish to be dependent on someone loving me so much that he asks for my input, despite not having to do so. I am not against submission as such, submission to God, or obeying God, makes sense. But does that mean submitting to the opposite sex?

When I think about it, your sentence makes complete sense if I switch think around a bit. My children are no less than I am. Of course, I am willing to die for them. They do have to obey me though (even when asked for input) . "Woman" having such a relationship with "man" makes me extremely uncomfortable, however.

My opinion tends to be that men and women are capable of the same things, but that women just have one extra ability - growing and birthing children.

[MittensKittens]

Originally Posted by Tradd

I'm Orthodox. The Orthodox view on submission (women being subject to their husbands) is much different than that of Protestantism, which is the one most people have in their minds. The Orthodox very much subscribe to the mutual submission of husband & wife St. Paul writes of.

Perhaps this might help (OCA Encyclical on Marriage)

http://www.oca.org/DOCencyclical.asp?SID=12&ID=4

ETA: if you're in an ethnic Serbian parish, there will be cultural norms that are coloring what the priest and others are telling you. In other words, you're probably going to get a different take on an ethnic Serbian priest, especially if he's from Serbia, than one who is American-born and raised. I was recently dating someone from the Balkans and the culture is VERY traditional - man is the head of the family, and the woman does everything with the home, even if working full time, etc.

I'll get on to your link now and comment when I have read it. In the meantime, I want to say that I am not in an ethnic Serbian parish, but in Serbia . I am lucky to have met a wonderful priest who is very helpful in answering every question I can come up with, but who seems to be very liberal in relation to other priests. Suits me though! On culture, I actually notice that religious people (I should say men) here are generally much less sexist and more respectful of women than the rest of the population.

[holyhelianthus]

Originally Posted by jlpumkin

I believe this. I identify as a traditional feminist. I don't feel I need to become a man or have all of his masculine qualities to be his equal.

I believe the original movement was necessary to allow women to care for themselves and their families. I think that at it's core it accomplished a lot. But I think I probably turned off of the path at some point.

:

I don't believe I have to have the same job, title, calling, etc as a man to be his equal. Equality not sameness.

[MittensKittens]

Originally Posted by magstphil

:

I don't believe I have to have the same job, title, calling, etc as a man to be his equal. Equality not sameness.

I agree that equality is not sameness. I do not have to have the same job as a man to be his equal, but I have to *be able* to have the same job, if I choose to. Same goes for the man by the same token, I think. If "traditional conjugal roles" are forced upon us, can we truly be equals?

[MittensKittens]

Originally Posted by cappuccinosmom

However, there are plenty of Christians who combine their faith with radical feminism. I know quite a few IRL.

What Christian denomination are these women?

[spero]

Sure. I've been studying Church history, and it's very likely that there were female apostles of Jesus. Mary Magdalene is acknowledged as the first Evangelist and the "apostle to the Apostles". I think that women had a much larger role in the founding of the Christian church, than is Biblically expressed; but that this information was intentionally left out when the Scriptural Canons were put together, due to the patriarchal nature of the Church at the time.

I also believe that there are a LOT of unfortunate misconceptions about Biblical submission, and that the whole concept has been manipulated and abused for centuries. As I understand it, the word was mistranslated from the original Greek, to begin with.

Originally Posted by cappuccinosmom

I do not believe the Bible teaches this. Differences in roles and functions, yes. But differences in ability, intelligence or human value or worth, no.

Originally Posted by jlpumkin

II don't feel I need to become a man or have all of his masculine qualities to be his equal.

Originally Posted by paulam

Women are not less than men in the Bible.

: To all of the above.

[Collinsky]

Discussion of "roles" aside... in the Bible are many strong women, who were prominent characters. Besides Esther, whom I feel was always objectified just a tad - JMO.

Deborah was a judge, a leader of the people, a warrior -- a very strong woman who stepped up to the plate and did another person's job because they were afraid to. When it is saying that he would be shamed for letting her do his job, I don't think it was because she was a woman, although that's how it's often painted, but because it was HIS job and he didn't have the courage in YHWH to sally forth.

Jael (or Yael)... well, perhaps she's not the best ad for feminism , but she was most certainly no cowering servant, and she is considered to be on the side of God's people.

Lydia of Purple was a successful independent business owner, and received the teachings of Jesus through Paul.

And Jesus traveled and taught with women... something that was very much outside the norm. It was one of the "odd" things about him, during a time when the men prayed "Blessed art thou, O Lord, for thou has not made me a woman."

There were many ideas that he challenged - during that time a man could divorce a woman for ANY REASON (but not the other way around). Jesus spoke against that. A woman could be stoned for adultery; Jesus stopped men who were doing just this and interceded for the woman.

It was women who stood by him to the end, and were the first to receive him when he was resurrected - their loyalty was due in part to his unique treatment of them as equal to men, and also I think was a way of honoring women as having a special bond with the Divine, a special faith that transcends pain and fear, a strength that the men did not display. (Again, challenging the assumptions of the day that women were weaker in body and mind and needed the guidance of men.) Women had little standing in that culture, and no religious authority, but (or they had the role of informing others of his resurrection. It was not by accident that this is in the story.

http://www.godswordtowomen.org/feminist.htm seems to be an interesting article... I just skimmed it but it might be a good starting place.

[PatienceAndLove]

I really have nothing to add, except the Epistle Of Saint Paul To The Ephesians Chapter 5 verses 22-33. It was actually the New Testament reading at my wedding. People giggled at first, but Father gave a wonderful homily about how the relationship between Christ and is Church is what the relationship between a Husband and Wife should be. Father also talked about how the Eucharist is how Christ shows love for His Spouse (the Church) and how each time we receive the Eucharist, we are renewing our covenant with Christ. In that way, sex between a husband and a wife mirrors the Eucharist because the husband and wife are giving themselves to one another and renewing their covenant to each other.

5: 22-33
Let women be subject to their husbands, as to the Lord: Because the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ is the head of the church. He is the saviour of his body. Therefore as the church is subject to Christ, so also let the wives be to their husbands in all things. Husbands, love your wives, as Christ also loved the church, and delivered himself up for it:
That he might sanctify it, cleansing it by the laver of water in the word of life: That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle, or any; such thing; but that it should be holy, and without blemish. So also ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife, loveth himself. For no man ever hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, as also Christ doth the church: Because we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife, and they shall be two in one flesh. This is a great sacrament; but I speak in Christ and in the church. Nevertheless let every one of you in particular love his wife as himself: and let the wife fear her husband.

[holyhelianthus]

Originally Posted by MittensKittens

I agree that equality is not sameness. I do not have to have the same job as a man to be his equal, but I have to *be able* to have the same job, if I choose to. Same goes for the man by the same token, I think. If "traditional conjugal roles" are forced upon us, can we truly be equals?

Absolutely and also no. On one side when a man can carry a child and give birth then we can talk about being able to have the same jobs being vital to equality. The truth is men and women are just different and I think it does a disservice to women to expect them to want what men have (on some levels). We downplay the importance and sacredness of what we as women do by nature when we do that, IMO.

I think the jobs men and women have can serve to compliment each other. I think that's the way it was meant to be. The way I view my faith, where men hold the Priesthood and women do not, is that Motherhood and the Priesthood are equal in importance and vital to the Plan of Salvation. And they compliment each other. They serve each other. I used this mental image with a friend of mine who feels the same way and she agreed so let me see if this makes sense- I, as a woman, am sitting in a tent in the wilderness breastfeeding my child and there is work to be done and a livelihood to defend. Now I am perfectly capable of this but when I place my husband between me and the job outside that needs to be done I can have more time and more ease in caring for my children (of course we share in these roles but not exactly 50/50). Now I am in no way saying all women should be barefoot and pregnant in their homes while the men go out and work I am just trying to illustrate that these two jobs are equally as vital to my family but my role is made easier when DH is fulfilling his- whatever those roles might be. I think we all have roles and that we need to find what they are for us and our families. I guess it's like yin and yang.

BTW I use to feel the same way as you. I left the LDS church in my teens because of it. I do have a different understanding though. I still believe in equality of the sexes and that women are just as important just as intelligent just as capable but in my mind I can see now that we have fallen into the trap of expecting sameness from women. We have confused sameness and equality and that took away from the importance of "women's work". If we didn't view "women's work" as lowly as we do I don't think we'd be having this discussion, ykwim? It's no longer desirable or honorable to be a woman and mother as traditionally defined. Our lawyers and doctors are way more important than the moms who raised them and stayed home cooking meals and doing dishes.

On the flip side (the more "worldly" side) I'm for choice. I'm for women being able to leave home if they want and go to school and get a job and so on. But some things are just going to be separate and I am ok with that too. I think that we can't expect everything in life to treat men and women exactly the same.

I also am for women in general. I am for the choice to fulfill traditional roles being more accepted and more respected. The pendulum has swung- now the women who leave home are respected and those who choose not to are looked down on. I want women exercising their choice to always be a beautiful thing.

K did I go off on a total tangent from the OP or what?

ETA- I feel like I need to clear up my above mess by saying in answer to the question quoted above some things are what they are and therefore "forced". Men and women are just different. But in other things we have the opportunity to open it up to everyone regardless of sex.

[holyhelianthus]

Ok and totally on another note...

Men being the "head of house" and all that and yet his wife still being equal is hard to wrap ones mind around, I know. In my faith it works like this- husband and wife are a team and come to agreements, etc as such but the husband is the "go between". As a wife I of course speak with the Lord myself and by my husband side and visa versa for him. Both men and women are entitled to personal revelation for their families from God. When I feel this I go to DH and he comes to me when he feels it. We discuss it and verify it for ourselves.

But he is the head of our home. What does that mean and how does it work? Basically he presides. He makes sure, on the spiritual level, that we're on the right track and such. Say we're on a hike. He and I have planned out the trail and the activities for our family on the way but on the actual hike he is the one in front of the family leading us. He is the one who watches the clock and tells us when it's time to stop and eat (and if we get hungry before then he will of course find an appropriate spot for us to stop) and he's the one who is watching the trail up ahead- and because he has this view at the head of the line when he yells STOP we know to stop. Me and my mental images, I know.

[PatienceAndLove]

But your mental images work!

[*Aimee*]

This was such a hard concept for me. I grew up being told that men were worthless and horrible and selfish. I grew up being told that a woman can do anything a man can do and more. My mother had been divorced twice, to drug addicted alcoholic men who beat her. She raised us on her own.

I saw all that she could do but she was never happy. She has recently been giving up on those ideas. She loves my husband and sees how well he treats my family. She loves my sons, and when she lets things slip "We dont need any stupid men AROUND HERE" is her battle call when she takes a lid off a jar or something psychically hard she accomplishes, and I explain that it's a hurtful thing for them to hear, she realizes that no, all men are stupid and worthless.

She called me crying recently telling me she wanted to be cherished and adored by a man, and taken care of. She was tired and lonely. These are biblical things. God created woman to be with man. To love each other, for him to cherish her, and to love her as much as God loves the church.

Surely women can do many many things, but just because they can do it all doesn't mean they're necessarily HAPPY doing it. Does that make sense?

I'm better at taking care of our kids, I'm better at keeping a house calm and neat and flowing well, I'm better at being nurturing and teaching. He's better at going to work every day and bringing home money He's better at disciplining and making hard choices for our family. I know some couples where all this is reversed, and it works great for them. It's fantastic they found each other to compliment so well.

I think its hard when you (not you but "you") think you have to be able to do everything a woman is "supposed" to do, and everything a man does, all equally well and while being happy. It's totally okay to realize men and women excel at certain things and together are totally awesome.

The way submission works here is we work together on everything. If we come to an impasse and can't make a compromise (pretty rare) I have to fall back to what he says. We did this before I came to Christianity too, as it just makes sense to me. Not everyone can get their way all the time. Right now it's killing me though because I really (really really) want a dog. He says no. All my Christian friends are telling me to just go get one. But that's not how our marriage works. I respect his reasoning for not wanting one but mine more Right now I'm hoping we'll compromise on that soon.

Sorry this was so long and spacey, I'm soooo tired right now. I hope it made sense

[BaBaBa]

You may find it helpful to reexamine what 'feminism' means to you.

I think some where along the line 'feminism' took a wrong turn. It seems that mainstream feminists don't want anything to do with you unless you support their liberal, pro choice agenda. The current feminist movement has failed miserably to support and respect the spiritual choices of so many women. It doesn't even attempt to understand them and that's a real shame.

I maintain that I am a feminist although I have little in common with the mainstream movement. I believe that feminism is about supporting women in whatever choices they make, including spiritual.

I am not a religious scholar but I have found this discussion very interesting. I think that the notion that Christianity (or any other religion) for that matter, is inherently sexist, is a false one, fueled by misunderstanding and I look forward to reading more posts on this subject.

[zech13_9_goforgold]

Originally Posted by paulam

Women are not less than men in the Bible. As the previous post stated they have different roles and responsibilities. I do have to obey my DH, but my DH has to be willing to die for me, just as Christ died for the church. Christ loved the Church and DH has to love me that much. So anyone who loves something so much as to die for it, would not be demanding, controlling and manipulative. Those actions do not come out of love. DH loves me so much that he wants my input on decisions and will decide to proceed with my decisions or make sure I am comfortable with the decision. Someone who truly has that much love also would never make a decision that would hurt that person.

Well said. Couldn't write it better myself. I also like the hiking illustration.

I think that feminism says that a woman is less than a man unless she can do everything that a man can do. She's basically saying, "Why have you made me a woman." There is such honor and esteem in submission. I feel like I have "relaxed" into the role I was designed to do. There is comfort in being the wife and keeping my home well.

Yes, sometimes men abuse their wives, but that's not loving and leading as Christ loved us (His church). Sometimes parents beat their kids, but that isn't an excuse for all the kids in the world to rise up in rebellion against all adults.

I agree, though, that this is a hard teaching. But, I wish you could see the tenderness with which my husband looks at me.

[Bluegoat]

I used to have a hard time with these ideas too, and in fact I don't really know even now, after 10 years as a Christian, that I have really figured it out.

I do know some people, with wonderful and fulfilling marriages and personal lives who live this way, which has been helpful.

One thing I would suggest is perhaps not to worry about it too much. Think about it, read, pray, and watch. Sometimes things come slowly, and with more experience. I can say that having children really changed my outlook on this issue in many ways.

This is a really good article, by an Orthodox lady, that you might find interesting - it's about the male priesthood, but it has some relation to the issues you are looking at.

http://www.frederica.com/writings/wo...rdination.html