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Can you reconcile Christianity with feminism? - Page 7

post #121 of 195
Still reading.
Question- would you like responses to all the items? Because several of them I cannot respond to because I cannot locate the passages/information they are quoting.
post #122 of 195
Quote:
Originally Posted by PatienceAndLove View Post
Still reading.
Question- would you like responses to all the items? Because several of them I cannot respond to because I cannot locate the passages/information they are quoting.
No no no!
Just a general response about where the "traditional" unerstandings differ from these ones would be great.
At this point I am interested in educating myself, but we are getting off topic pretty dramatically here.

thank you
Karen
post #123 of 195
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karenwith4 View Post
No no no!
Just a general response about where the "traditional" unerstandings differ from these ones would be great.
At this point I am interested in educating myself, but we are getting off topic pretty dramatically here.

thank you
Karen
Are we off topic? I see it more as a natural conversational verge based upon the topic!
post #124 of 195
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karenwith4 View Post
No no no!
Just a general response about where the "traditional" unerstandings differ from these ones would be great.
At this point I am interested in educating myself, but we are getting off topic pretty dramatically here.

thank you
Karen
Since this is the first time I have ever heard of many of the items listed in the RCWP.org article, I cannot really comment. They seem some what... reaching. IMHO.

I will be honest and say that I take that website with a grain of salt, so initially, it was hard to read it without laughing. Sorry. That's what took me so long to reply, I had to read it as something the authors of the group honestly believe.

I need to read it, again, to further comment.
post #125 of 195
From P & L's links:

Quote:
Jesus did not ordain any women. He selected all of his apostles, and none were women.
Even Catholic theologians admit that this may be in error, and that female apostles may have actually existed though been intentionally left out of Canon Scripture.

And it's worth noting that Jesus didn't ordain anyone, and that the apostles were not priests. The only priests of that time were the Hebrew priests. "Christian" priests didn't appear until about the 4th century. No popes in the early church, either.

Quote:
Two thousand years later, no one—including the pope—has the authority to change the designs of the Church that Christ instituted.
It has also been speculated that Jesus' intention was not to found an institutional church based on rules and hierarchy, but rather to simply lead people back to a personal relationship with God. Indeed, these so-called Christ-instituted "designs of the Church" - where exactly might they be found in Scripture?

Quote:
Specifically, the Church is unable to change the substance of a sacrament. For example, a person cannot be baptized in wine, nor may a substance other than bread be used for the consecration at Mass. If invalid matter is used, then the sacrament does not take place. Likewise, since the priest acts in the person of Christ, the Church has no authority to confer the sacrament on those who are unable to represent the male Jesus Christ.
We're just talking about the form here, though; which is part of the ritual. The core of the Sacrament is a person's faith and God's grace. The ritual can never produce the Sacrament ... either God's grace is present, or not. The ritual/form can't change that. The ritual is the celebration of the Sacrament, which has already taken place (or not).

I could argue this forever, but what it boils down to is, you have your POV and I have mine. Mine is based on my own personal faith/relationship with God, plus the courses (taught by Catholic clergy and laypeople) I am taking in Formation for Ministry. Yours seems based on "What the Most Conservative Faction of the Catholic Church Says." OK, we'll have to agree to disagree.

I would also like to add that we are ALL called to be Christ. Priest or not, whenever we act in His name, we ARE Christ. Young, old, male, female - we're called to personify Christ, that's what He wants from us. And, in case anybody was wondering, I'm not campaigning to be a priest. I don't think that's my calling. But I know some women who would fit the bill nicely.
post #126 of 195
I personally wouldn't belong to a faith or church where women were less than men. I'm pretty safe in saying that if the question were asked "Can you be a feminist and a Christian" the women of my church would say "Hell Ya!" Including my minister, who was also at the president of my city's conference a few years ago, along with DH's grandmother who was the president not so few years ago. I'd go so far to say that the driving force behind each and every congregation is a team of women and the men and women in our church are very aware of that, whether they are ministers, presidents, representatives, ushers, nursery care providers, coffee servers or bakers.

It is a regular theme in my church where we're exploring the roles of women in the Bible and how even though not glorified as much as the men, every bit as important. Whether it were women who walked with Jesus and very likely ministered people, to women who hosted dinners, buried the dead, tended to wounds etc. And it's not uncommon to have my minister mention about how annoyed she is with a particular story undervaluing the women in those days and a church full of women nodding their heads.

Personally I think it a great disservice to the church itself to deny women these important roles. I have a friend who is a Catholic, if any Catholic I've ever met should be in a leadership role as a priest, she should, but she can't, though it's hard to get her to admit it, she'd like to and feels very sad that she cannot serve in this way. She still gets joy out of serving in other ways, but she doesn't feel it's fair, and I think she's right. The saddest thing is, the people who are losing out on this wonderful person in this role.
post #127 of 195
I just can't resist.....

I reconcile my feminism with Roman Catholicism this way:

1. When early Christianity became the Roman state religion, some concessions had to be made. Per usual, women got sold out. Paul's admonishments to women to cover their hair, keep quiet and let the menfolk talk was a wink wink nudge nudge to the Roman hierarchy that could accept monotheism, but would never accept women as anything near equals.

To me, RC and most Christian religions were built on a faulty foundation. Half of it is missing and we must work tirelessly to put it right - we owe it to Christ, who laid down his life for us. We must make the Church whole again.

2. Motherhood is predicated on an entirely biological imperative. Have sex at the right time, give birth *bam* you're a mama. Priesthood.... not so much. The equivalent to MOTHER is FATHER *not* PRIEST. One could make the argument that a priest is a type of father, but that is totally immaterial. The most sacred and essential actions he performs are not biologically based, but spiritually based, and, as we all very well know, in Christ there is no man or woman. So, I could easily argue that female priests would be called Mother, just like we call our male priests Father.

3. The priest caste, since the very beginning of religious thought and belief, has been extraordinarily powerful. They stood next to kings and were oftentimes the voice behind the throne. Mothers....not so much. Maybe a Queen here and there (if she had sons, of course), but not your average mother. In a Medieval village, a priest has considerable prestige over *men* , women, mothers, were an afterthought, at best.

4. Finally, the mental gymnastics necessary to literally interpret a *metaphor* are certainly impressive, but still rather ridiculous. Christ as Bridegroom with the Church as His bride was how He illustrated His intense Love and Passion for us. NOT a directive on how only men can be priests. I mean seriously - it's amazing how the most faithful can debase their Lord.

Jesus elevated women in ways never before imagined. It takes a hell of a lot of nerve to undo what He has done. Women may have been mothers since homo sapiens evolved, but Christ made us Human.

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post #128 of 195
Thread Starter 
Suzywan, thank you so much for those comments, they are really helpful to me. I think it is so important to remember that the current church leadership, priesthood etc does not define Christianity. I guess that I should go back to the base and explore what Jesus did and what his intentions were, rather than getting stuck looking at actions of religious leaders that I am uncomfortable with.
post #129 of 195
Quote:
Originally Posted by MittensKittens View Post
Suzywan, thank you so much for those comments, they are really helpful to me. I think it is so important to remember that the current church leadership, priesthood etc does not define Christianity. I guess that I should go back to the base and explore what Jesus did and what his intentions were, rather than getting stuck looking at actions of religious leaders that I am uncomfortable with.
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post #130 of 195
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzywan View Post
Jesus elevated women in ways never before imagined. It takes a hell of a lot of nerve to undo what He has done. Women may have been mothers since homo sapiens evolved, but Christ made us Human.

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Brilliant! I'm so glad you said this. My dad told me the same thing when I was very young and I've never forgotten. Makes me a little teary.:
post #131 of 195
boy, this has been the most interesting thread i've read in a while. not sure i have anything to add, i'm most definitely a feminist, in the sense of woman should be allowed the freedom of self-determination that men traditionally are, and most definitely not a christian, it's been turned into something radically different than what it should/could have been and i'm throwing the baby out with the bathwater when it comes to that.

but thanks so much for the interesting thoughts!!
post #132 of 195
Here is a question for those who identify as feminist; could God have intended the priesthood for only one gender?

I ask, because my starting place on this question is that yes, he could have. So that leaves me with whether or not he actually did as the follow-up.
post #133 of 195
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluegoat View Post
Here is a question for those who identify as feminist; could God have intended the priesthood for only one gender?

I ask, because my starting place on this question is that yes, he could have. So that leaves me with whether or not he actually did as the follow-up.
No I personally don't think so.
But I don't come at this from the premise that God is a singular male essence nor do I believe any longer in the Christian creation story which to me suggests woman were created to serve a secondary role in creation.
post #134 of 195
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karenwith4 View Post
No I personally don't think so.
But I don't come at this from the premise that God is a singular male essence nor do I believe any longer in the Christian creation story which to me suggests woman were created to serve a secondary role in creation.
I agree with that. I am on the fence about whether the priesthood could have been intended for men only, but I am not able to believe in that creation story either. If someone has a different input on why it should be OK, or why they accept it, I would love to hear it.
post #135 of 195
Thread Starter 
I also just heard that, in some churches, women are not allowed to take communion while they are menstruating. Does anyone know the reason behind this?
post #136 of 195
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karenwith4 View Post
No I personally don't think so.
But I don't come at this from the premise that God is a singular male essence nor do I believe any longer in the Christian creation story which to me suggests woman were created to serve a secondary role in creation.
Do Christians believe God is a singular male essence???!!! I wish someone had told me!
post #137 of 195
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluegoat View Post
Do Christians believe God is a singular male essence???!!! I wish someone had told me!
LOL sorry I was trying not to offend.
I try not to attribute male human characteristics to a/the Divine power.
Being the radical feminist that I am : I think it futher separates us from true spirituality and from recognizing our collective worth.
So no "He" wouldn't have decided women couldn't become priests because I don't believe "She/They" operates in the same way as human kind does in predefining what women or men can do. I deeply believe much of "religious law/rules" have nothing to do with a Divine Power and are instead reflected of the time and culture when those religious texts and "rules" were established.

Karen
post #138 of 195
Quote:
but I am not able to believe in that creation story either. If someone has a different input on why it should be OK, or why they accept it, I would love to hear it.
I accept it because I believe it's true. I don't believe Eve was created 'secondarily'; presumably God was planning to create her all along, unless one believes He didn't intend for the human race to get above one member. Perhaps he held off on Eve so Adam would appreciate her more when she got there.

Even if the Creation story did mean women held a lower 'rank' than men, so what? If it were true, it would be true. I don't believe in holding beliefs because they're nice and fuzzy-wuzzy and fit in with secular humanistic ideals. It would be 'nicer', at least on a superficial level, not to believe in hell, but I don't believe an honest reading of the Bible allows me that interpretation.
Quote:
I also just heard that, in some churches, women are not allowed to take communion while they are menstruating. Does anyone know the reason behind this?
I've never heard of it. It's certainly not a Christian doctrine. If it exists it's probably based on a very strange semi-adherence to Levitical law, kindasorta. Bizarre, anyway.
post #139 of 195
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smokering View Post

I've never heard of it. It's certainly not a Christian doctrine. If it exists it's probably based on a very strange semi-adherence to Levitical law, kindasota. Bizarre, anyway.
Actually it is true according to Orthodox Christine doctrine at least.
Here is an article with references.

I've heard it referenced in other contexts as well.

Karen
post #140 of 195
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karenwith4 View Post
Actually it is true according to Orthodox Christine doctrine at least.
Here is an article with references.

I've heard it referenced in other contexts as well.

Karen
Yes, I was referring to the Orthodox Church. The person who told me this also mentioned that Catholics used to do the same waaaaay back.
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