LOTR fans - help!

[owensmom]

Ok, I just had to speed watch the first two movies with dh because his company is taking them to see the 3rd one.

(His co. actually took them to see the first one too, and dh didn't like it!). Anyway, his poor memory allows him to watch a movie again like he has never seen it before.

Of course, my watching it has me crazed to see the 3rd... I never read the books, and I have some questions:

Why does Sam call Frodo "Mr. Frodo"?

How old are these hobbits? They all look young (like 16 year old boys), but I realize age is wacky in Middle Earth.

Are the Elves going back to some land where they came from? It sounds like things are good there... if so, why did they come to middle earth?

So, the elves are immortal, yes? So do they age at all? How do Elrond and Arwen look like father daughter - do they age physically to a certain point?

What did the necklace Arwen gave Aragon (aragorn??) mean? Is she not immortal without it?

If they are immortal, how come they die in battle?

So in the 2 towers, did that king's daughter just fall instantly in love with Aragon? It seemed weird.

What were the two towers?

Hmmm, that is all I can think of right now.

I'm glad I got into the movies right beore the 3rd one - no agonizing or waiting!

On the other hand, I missed out on two years of magazine articles, photo spreads, and tv interviews of Orlando Bloom! :swoon:

[CdnAloha]

Okay, I am going to venture some explanation, but I know there are some hard-core LOTR fans on here that will reveal the "truer" meanings of things. I've read the book a couple of times both as a child and as an adult, but I don't read any spiritual thread into the stories...they are just that to me - good stories.

Here goes:
Frodo is Sam's 'master', his employer. Originally Sam worked for Billbo as his gardener, but Gandalf asked him to take care of Frodo on the quest. There is also a bit of hero worship in there.

The hobbits are all hundreds of years old, but they are a 'youthful people' often considered childlike because of there love for life and laughter.

The land the elves are from and going to is kind of a 'neverland' or between world. They are immortal there, but it's kind of a spirit existence. They are also hundreds of years old. I think though the ravages of the world and their experiences has an impact on how they 'age'. In the case of Elrond he has seen so much that it shows on his face and Arwen, his daughter, has always lived in Rivendell so had a much more pleasant existence.

The necklace was supposed to represent her mortality and her life commitment to Aragorn. I don't remember that from the book, so I found it confusing in the movie too.

And the elves are immortal in that they will not die of old age or natural causes, but they can be killed like anyone else by violence.

Eowyn (sorry for the spelling) is the woman who falls for Aragorn, although a lot more was made about that in the movie than in the book. In the book she is a warrior and admires Aragorn so much that they have sort of a natural, deep bond. It's not really a romantic thing.

I think the two towers were Saruman's tower/castle and the tower at Mordor where Sauron watches with the eye. I was confused about that too.

Okay, after all that typing, please all you wise-knowers-of-all-that-is-LOTR set me straight.

HTH
Julia

[PinkSunfish]

Okay, I am not a LOTR know-it-all by any means but I have read the Silmarilion which explains all the stuff about the elves that you were asking about.

1: What CdnAloha said. Sam was Frodo's gardener, I suspect it also reveals class differences (reflecting British class differences of the time although JRR was adamant that the book stood alone and wasn't allegorical in any way) as well as the fact that Sam is quite shy and has low self esteem.

2: In the book, Frodo and Bilbo share a birthday. At the time of the party Bilbo is 111 and Frodo is 55 (both special Hobbit birthdays). Fifty five is considered to be quite young, probably late twenties/early thirties by our reckoning as hobbits live longer than humans. Merry and Pippin are younger than Frodo. Aragorn is in his forties in the book. Aragorn is one of the Dunedain (a sort of human +, there are not many left and they are all Rangers), he lives to be about 200 or so.

3: The elves are originally from Valinor. It is a continent across the sea "to the west". A magical restriction was placed on it (after some human naughtiness) and it can only be reached by the elves. It is inhabited by the Valar (equivalent to angels) who love elves, humans and dwarves. Some elves (but not all) left when the first Dark Lord (Morgoth, who was once Sauron's boss) stole the Silmarils (magical stones, very precious to the elves). Many of the elves left to take on Morgoth and recapture the Silmarils but some (like Galadriel) just fancied some adventure and the chance to build up their own kingdoms on Middle Earth. Elevs were not quite as wise and genteel in those days, there was a lot of infighting and argy-bargy which really upset the Valar.

4: Elves are immortal and since they can have children, presumably age slowly to a certain point and then stop. Elves can be killed with weapons but they do not really "die". They go back to a special hall in Valinor. All the elves that we meet are thousands of years old.

Elves are very sad that humans are not immortal. They don't know what happens to humans when they die.

Elrond and his brother were half human and half elf. They were given a choice at one point about whether they wanted to be all human or all elf. Elrond's brother chose to be human and Elrond chose to be an elf. This would explain why he looked older in the film but I don't think his appearance is really mentioned in the book in terms of age.

5: I think the necklace was supposed to be a symbol of her power and immortality. I don't think it is mentioned in the book. They added some stuff about Arwen into the film to make it more clear why Aragorn marries her. When you read the book it is a bit of a surprise (although their whole love story is in the appendix and worth reading). Aragorn met her when he was very young but Elrond has had him out in the world proving his worth (as a ranger) ever since. Elrond is a tough FIL .

6: Answered above.

7: Eowyn did fall madly in love with Aragorn. That was partly why she followed him in to battle (but also because she wanted to prove herself, didin't like being restricted by her gender and was also suffering from severe depression and suicidal tendancies). It was more of a crush though than real love, she fell in love with the idea of Aragorn, rather than the man.

Faramir, falls in love with Eowyn and persuades her than he is a good second choice (Faramir is a lovely, honorable man in the book who gets hard done by in the Two Towers film). She eventually realises that Faramir is the bees kness (hoorah).

8: There has been some argument as to which Two Towers are the ones of the title. I think they are Orthanc (the tower in Isengard where Saruman lives) and Bar'd Ur (Sauron's place). Some think it means Minas Tirith (the main city of Gondor) and Minas Morgul (where the Nazgul live) or any combination of all of those. You can decide for yourself.

9: I know that you didn't ask but just for completeness. Gandalf and Saruman and other wizards were sent over from Valar to sort out Sauron when he first went on the rampage. After he was conatined (when the Ring was cut off his finger) they went their separate ways. Gandalf was the only one who still stuck to his job and remained interested in the affairs of all the peoples on Middle Earth. Saruman had a big interest in all the rings of power and especially the one Ring for a long long time but effectively kept that hidden from everyone by moving to Isengard and living as a loner.

Return of the King is a fabulous film, the best one in my opinion. Have a wonderful time when you see it.

[Clarity]

Here's a fan website for you, http://www.theonering.net

Most of it was covered.

Other comparisons made to sam/frodo was the relationship between British military officers and their enlisted manservents (there's another special word for that). It was master/servant but they also fought and served in the military together, they developed a bond beyond superior/subordinate. It was also considered a pretty prestigious job for an enlisted man.

As far as eowyn, when you consider how restricted her life is, nonrelatives of appropriate social class don't walk in the door every day. Or that look like Aragorn. Plus there's a couple more scenes in the extended DVD (stable, stew, etc.) that give a little more plausability to the eowyn/aragorn thing. It's more played up in the movie than in the book. If you saw the EE, the theatrical didn't have that dumb stew scene, or her confessing love at helm's deep. In the book, you know she loves him, but she doesn't embarass herself that way...they also cut the main eowyn falling for faramir sequence out, it's a great part of the book and may be back in the ROTK EE dvd.

[JessicaS]

Ya Fun!

The Hobbits are all fairly young by Hobbit standards. Frodo is about 50 or so when he leaves the Shire, while Pippin is around 26 which is younger than the coming of age at 40.

All the other hobbits are from nobility except Sam. Merry is the heir of the master of Buckland, Frodo is Bilbo's heir, and Pippin is the son and heir to the Thain of the Shire. It is fitting that Sam refer to Frodo as "Mr".

Elves, do not die from natural causes, like it was earlier stated they can die by weapons but are otherwise immortal.

In the books, Legolas is over 2000 years old and a Prince of the Mirkwood elves. Sam is the *only* member of the Fellowship who is *not* nobility for his race.

The elves are not from Valinor, that is where the Valar reside who created all the races (the chief Valar known as Manwe created the elves) are immortal and thus cannot die, thus they go to join the immortals when their time has come. Only elves may go.(the ring bearers, Frodo, Bilbo and Sam are all permitted to go because they bore the one) Sam goes much later, after the death of his wife, Rose. The time of the elves is ending and nearly all the elves leave as a result.

Gandalf is not mortal either. He is a Maiar, who are just under the Valar and work for them. All the wizards are Maiar, though not all Maiar are Wizards (Goldberry and Tom Bombadil are also Maiar. Incidently the Balrogs are too but they are naughty Maiar) the Maiar who are wizards are called the Istari. Gandalf works for Manwe (chief Valar). There are four other Istari (Radagast is the only other one mentioned in LotR besides Saruman and Gandalf but Pallando and Alatar are the others) Gandalf is also a ring bearer. He has one of the three elven rings.

As a Half Elf, Arwen may choose to be immortal or mortal. Elrond had that choice as did his brother. His brother chose to be mortal and Elrond immortal. It doesn't have anything to do with the jewel, it is just a choice.

Elrond is VERY old and has had a rough life. He founded Rivendell and many years before the books take place his wife (who was Galadriel's daughter) was attacked by orcs and assaulted, her experience was not something she could get over and left for Valinor (poor Elrond) Elrond also has twin sons who run around orc killing to avenge their mother and later join the rangers who join Aragorn at Isengard and go with him on the Paths of the Dead and fight at Pellenor fields..

She does give him a jewel when they decide to marry but it isn't like what is in the movie. Elves do age just very very slowly. Arwen is thousands of years old. Cirdain the shipwright (guy who makes the ships that go to Valinor) is the oldest elf in Middle Earth and actually has a beard.

Tolkien never named the seperate books, Robert Unwin, his publisher and biggest fan did. Tolkien didn't know what they meant by the "Two Towers" (I have his book of letters and he talks about it in one) it could mean Orthanc (tower of Saruman) and Bara-dur (tower of Sauron), but there are more possibilities.

Eowyn falling in love with Aragorn makes more sense in the books. He comes with Gandalf to get rid of Wormtongue, he is a warrior..he has a lot of nobility

She later falls in love with Faramir at the Houses of Healing (they are both severly injured) and they marry.

Here is a really cool website http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm which is a sort of online encyclopedia.

[Astrid]

Wow, I have read the books four times and still have much to learn.

[PinkSunfish]

Abimommy: You are right that the Elves don't originally come form Valinor (I remembered that this morning) but most of the elves on Middle Earth did used to live there (Galadriel for example) and came back to Middle Earth to retrieve the Silmarils. But I suppose that is more than the OP was looking for in terms of an answer .

Thanks for confirming that the Wizards were Maia, I presumed that they were but wasn't sure about it.

[mirlee]

I have only a couple of things to add.

My understanding was that Aragorn was in his 80s, probably closer to 85. He supposedly lives to e 400 or so. which prompts Elrond to also talk to Arwen about her ending up alone because Aragorn will die and she won't. He is from the race of people founded by Elrond's brother where the descendents do not have immortality, but have very long lives. This is probably the second reason why he doesn't feel that a relationship with Eowyn would never work besides the fact that he is/feels bound to Arwen.

As for the third, I am anxiously waiting to see it. Unfortuntately, I won't be able to see until the 28th or 29th. DH will probably go to a late show with a friend.

Warning :: Spoiler Ahead! Highlight to read message!

---

Since Christopher Lee has been cut from the film, I am afraid that the movie will have more not of the book surprises. I hope they don't stray too far from the original.

---

[madrone]

One thing, in the book, ten years elapse between the party and Frodo's departure.

[JessicaS]

Aragorn is of the race of Numenor, after the downfall of Numenor (they were bad and challanged the Valar) they are referred to as the Dunadain. Elros (Elrond's brother) was the first king of Numenor. He is supposed to have lived longer than any mortal but I really don't know how long that was. (almost made myself dizzy trying to explain ineptly so I had to look that up so I could get it straight, Aragorn's line is a bit confusing)

Aragorn lived to the age of 210. (I looked it up as I didn't remember)

You are right, Galadrial *did* return to find the Simarils. Her and her siblings forsook the Undying lands to follow Melkor (very bad Valar, made Sauron what he was and did lots of other bad things) when he stole the simarils and fight him. Galadriel was permitted to return to Valinor because she refused the one ring when it was offered to her.

They didn't stray too far from the books IMO. A lot of the actor's lins were direct quotes from the books. On the whole I can't see how they could do too much better.

Warning :: Spoiler Ahead! Highlight to read message!

---

But what was up with the Arwen being sick part? Did I miss that? Does anyone remember that in the books?

---

My favorite part was

Warning :: Spoiler Ahead! Highlight to read message!

---

The charge of the Rohirrim, I *love* Rohan! I cried all through that part

---

[Clarity]

abimommy, that part of the arwen thing is just in the ROTK film, not the book - you remember rightly. I don't think I like it from what I've heard...a lot of people don't understand it much. An ineffective attempt to increase dramatic tension and keep her involved in the storyline. The flashback stuff in TTT I thought was great and well done, so I know they can handle the arwen stuff ok, I think they just misstepped. I'd rather have House of Healing.

[JessicaS]

Well I was cool with the using the appendixes to include more of the story behind Arwen. The appendixes have a lot of interesting back story.

Warning :: Spoiler Ahead! Highlight to read message!

---

I was ok with the reforging of Narsil parts too as I am sure they did it in RoK so it would be more dramatic or something that way.

---

It was mostly that part in RoK that I thought odd. (well that and poor Glorfindel but I have ranted about that before and people probably don't want to hear that again)

I am really expecting to see the Houses of Healing in the extended version. It is a really important part of the books.

Warning :: Spoiler Ahead! Highlight to read message!

---

And since Eowyn falls in love with Faramir duiring that it seems odd without it. "Oh look the guy I have been pining over the whole time is marrying someone else but hey, don't I look happy about it?" it is odd. And of course not to mention the prophecies involving Aragorn and healing.

---

[owensmom]

Thank you everyone. THANK YOU.

I had the great fortune of seeing RotK on friday. Wow. I expected to have tears and of course, forgot tissues. Luckily my friend had some. I think Merry and Pippen are amazing. I thought I wouldn't care about battle scenes, but oh my. I remember reading people came out of it shattered and exhausted, and towards the end I thought "I'll be ok". Then I had to stand in the hallway waiting for my friend to use the bathroom, and I had to intently stare at the "Cheaper by the Dozen" poster or I was going to break down and sob. I dreamt of hobbits and dwarves that night, when I could sleep. I want to see it again so badly. Even my cynic hubby liked it... but I feel so deeply affected by it.

I read somewhere that Aragorn was raised by Elrond? and that Gimli's father helped Bilbo? In the Two Towers, what did Faramir foresake by letting Frodo go and not taking the ring?

I have the first book on hold at the library...

Ever thankful for my Tivo - have a Rings wishlist, and have tons of stuff that they are playing right now (have been watching Page to Screen on Bravo-very interesting!!).

[JessicaS]

Aragorn and his mother lived in Rivendell after the death of his father. They knew he would be far safer there.

Gloin, Gimili's dad is one of the dwarves in the Hobbit.

Well...Faramir just really hacked off his dad. He didn't know his dad wanted the ring for himself and pretty much said that he wouldn't have taken it from the hobbits even if he did, hacking his dad off more.

The relationship between Faramir and his father is portrayed pretty accurately. However the scene with Faramir nearly taking the ring is not. Faramir didn't want anything to do with the ring and said he wouldn't pick it up if he saw it laying on the side of the road.

Gandalf tutored Faramir in his youth so he tends to make good decisions.

I cried through a good deal of the movie, though dh found that strange.

[mojomom]

Thank you ladies for posting those great links to the LOTR sites. I have not read the books and just recently(this month) got into the movies. I love the movies and am seeing ROTK on the 25th. I was so glad to look thru those sites because even though I think Peter Jackson did a great job, even never having read the books I always felt at certain places the movie was skipping things and hoping the audience would not be able to tell. Like that whole tree herder scene how they decided this war had nothing to do with them and they had this lOOOONNNGGG meeting about it, then the two hobbits take the tree herder to see what destruction was taking place and then he decided for the whole group to go to war. For me it made the whole scene of the meeting pointless but now reading that site I see what Tolkien's original version was and that makes more sense. Also they don't explain Aaragon enough in the movie, his whole being king thing they make it seem like it is such a struggle for him to realize he is a king but on the other hand in the movie he is constantly taking a leadership role. But I see from the site that Tolkien never had Aaragon denounce his kingship. Well maybe I should read the books and will have more authority to stand on. I am very excited to see the movie.

I do have a question in the TT when Frodo and Sam are at the gates and Sam fall on the rocks Frodo uses his cape to hide. My question is when did he get this magical cape, I mean the cape made them look like rocks so it was majical right? And why did he never use it before to hide? Who gave him the cape? Does he know what it does?

Also could someone explain to me who is the dying man on the bed in the the TT he is Theodin's son I know that but I could not catch his name. Also is Borimir and his brother related to Theodin, they are his nephews right?

Thank you so much.

[Clarity]

If you watch the FOTR and TT Extended Edition (not theatrical version...two different DVDs were released) you see the fellowship get given gifts from galadriel - they do in the book too. Cloaks, brooches, merry and pippin get knives, frodo gets a glass vial to "bring light to the dark places", sam gets rope- in the book he gets magical dirt, legolas gets a new bow, aragorn gets a knife. The gifts are slightly different in the book. Boromir gets no gift I think (but something may have passed between them...), Gimli gets three golden hairs from galadriels head (he kind of falls in love/worship with her.) The cloaks aren't directly magical...they are like "super powered"...they help you blend into thing rather than being able to cast a spell or something like that...the rope too, and the lembas (travel bread). Special qualities rather than being overtly magical.

The xtended editions fill in some of the character info better. The TT EE gives more info about Boromir, Faramir and their dad Denethor, Steward of Gondor --they call them that becase they aren't kings...they are taking care of Gondor while they wait for the return of the king...a descendent of Isildur (the guys that cut the ring off Sauron were isildur and his father...father died then Isildur died later, arrows in that back. EE explains that a little better too. - therefore the references to isildur's heir, bane (the ring) etc.) Understanding the steward thing makes you understand that everyone's kind of waiting for Aragorn - they just don't know if he even exists. The emblem of gondor has no leaves on the treee, and aragorn's emblem (supposedly...the tree has bloomed.) Hobbits however, pretty much have no clue about gondor or stewards or anything like that. Aragorn has always known he had the birthright to be king, but was never sure he wanted to really step forward and be the king. The elves know, but he didn't walk around saying "hey, I'm isuldur's heir" to others. Sauron and others might have tried to have him killed if people had known, People get that he's something special, but not what, other than he's a ranger , dunadain, who are descendants of Numenoreans. (ancient people of middle earth.) He'll live longer than a regular human because of that. oops we already covered that.

i thin it's easier to understand the details from watching the extended versions if you haven't read the books. if you have read the books you can fill in the holes yourself...but then you expect the EE details.

theodred is theoden's son.

[JessicaS]

Faramir and Boromir are not related to Theoden.

Eomir and Eowyn and Theodens' neice and nephew.

Boromir's gift was a golden belt, (had to read that bit of Fellowship again as I didn't remember what his gift was)

[Clarity]

oh, yeah! my copy's upstairs...Faramir sees the belt in his vision of boromir dead in the boat, doesn't he. nice catch on the rest of the theoden question...I lost track.

I may get to go tomorrow...YAY!

[JessicaS]

You're right Faramir does see the belt in his vision.

YAY!! I hope you get to go..I had to break down and go to the bathroom after Pellenor fields as I had already been shifting around for an hour but didn't want to miss any of that part...LOL

Eowyn and Wikki is AWSOME!!! You'll love it!! Rohan is AWSOME too (though Theoden has Eomir's lines..LOL)

[Arduinna]

Nice thread ladies!

We went today and I cried from the begining but not at the end, although dd broke down when the movie ended.

Can't wait to see it again, especially without little kids talking throughout the movie I won't go into my usual rant about 2 year olds at these kind of films.